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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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who were the "founding fathers"?...
    #4371906 - 07/05/05 12:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

one most often associates the phrase with thomas jefferson & co...but america was originally settled 180 years earlier..by religious bigots who had a very different idea than the authours of the US constitution...as such..it seems unlikely that the latter would have been able to bury the former...is it possible that these two competing heritages form the axis of political debate in the US?...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4371931 - 07/05/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
is it possible that these two competing heritages form the axis of political debate in the US?...



If only it were true. At least then there would be more clearcut choices in elections. The only party carrying on the Jeffersonian tradition is the Libertarian Party, and they in the extreme minority. What we have is corporate liberalism, tracing its roots back to the progressive movement of the late 19th century, and neoconservatism, originating from the Cold War-era hawkish right.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4372834 - 07/05/05 06:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the jeffersonians werent modern-day "liberals" any more than the neocons are the pilgrims...technically..however.."neoconservatism" is strictly a foreign policy position..and "political debate" also includes domestic policy...

OTOH..the pilgrims were imperialists too...and while the neocons are not religious fundamentalists per se..their expansionist ideology nevertheless lends itself to racial and religious bigotry...that same religious fundamentalism is also evident in the neocons' authouritarian domestic counterparts..and its central ideology is not much different from that of the original puritans...

but while it may be possible to link the modern radical right to the puritans..todays' liberals cannot be similarly be lought back to the jeffersonians...the reason is that the latter had a solid moral foundation from which their policies derived..while todays' liberals have largely been reduced to the role of naysayers...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4373118 - 07/05/05 08:00 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

but while it may be possible to link the modern radical right to the puritans..todays' liberals cannot be similarly be lought back to the jeffersonians...the reason is that the latter had a solid moral foundation from which their policies derived..while todays' liberals have largely been reduced to the role of naysayers...



The reason is not some nonsense about a moral foundation. The reason is that while Jefferson, Paine, Mason, et al viewed government as a neccessary evil that should be limited in the utmost, todays' liberals embrace the state wholeheartedly, in ecstasy everytime they're able to use its tendrils to coerce people into doing as they believe.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4373195 - 07/05/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Let us not forget that it wasn't just Puritans and Pilgrims that settled the Americas. There was a very strong Dutch colony on Manhattan that was very liberal for it's time and successful. It's absorption into the British regime greatly effected the future course of the country.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4373577 - 07/05/05 10:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Jefferson, Paine, Mason, et al viewed government as a neccessary evil that should be limited in the utmost




in that case.. what did they mean by slipping the commerce clause..and other disclaimers..into the constitution..which effectively give the federal govt unlimited power?...

Quote:

todays' liberals embrace the state wholeheartedly, in ecstasy everytime they're able to use its tendrils to coerce people into doing as they believe.




does that mean that bush&co and the congressional GOP are really liberals?...if so..then why are they called "conservatives"?...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4373648 - 07/05/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Annapurna1 asks:

Quote:

in that case.. what did they mean by slipping the commerce clause..and other disclaimers..into the constitution..which effectively give the federal govt unlimited power?...




Whoa! Stop the presses. Our very own inimitable Anna has unearthed a blockbuster here -- the Founding Fathers weren't psychic enough to foresee that a century or so after their deaths, activist judges on the Supreme Court would rule that a man growing grain on his own land for his own consumption was involved in interstate commerce.

It's Pulitzer Prize time, folks!



Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Phred]
    #4373733 - 07/05/05 11:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

neocons can be so obtuse sometimes...to wit ..the quoted text says and other disclaimers immediately following "commerce clause"..and among the "other disclaimers" is the exclusive power of the SCOTUS to determine the applicability of the US constitution...its debatable whether or not jefferson&co could have anticipated how the commerce clause would become a tool of centralized govt..but it should have been very obvious to them that giving the SCOTUS that much power would necessarily open the door to dangerous activist judges like janice rogers brown...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4373959 - 07/06/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Some commerce clause fun:

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

The way the clause is written, the Federal Government has the same scope of powers with foreign nations as it does with 'the several states.' Carrying this along, everything the federal government does today under the banner of the commerce clause in the United States, it would be constitutionally justified in doing all across the world. I'll leave to the imagination what this entails.

That's IF you harbor the belief that the founding fathers had such an intention...


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflinePhred
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4373960 - 07/06/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

among the "other disclaimers" is the exclusive power of the SCOTUS to determine the applicability of the US constitution...




Exactly. And since SCOTUS can (and does) decide certain legislation originating in Congress (or through Executive Order) violates the Constitution, your statement:

Quote:

in that case.. what did they mean by slipping the commerce clause..and other disclaimers..into the constitution..which effectively give the federal govt unlimited power?...




is a false one. The federal government does not have unlimited power. Their power is limited to what the Constitution grants them.

As a side note, your statement that the Constitution gives exclusive power to SCOTUS to decide constitutionality of a given piece of legislature is incorrect. The Executive branch can decide so (and veto the offending law), Congress can decide so (and repeal the offending law), and in individual cases brought to trial, the people (juries) can decide so through jury nullification.

It is true that SCOTUS gets the "final" say in the matter, but only in the sense that the laws of the universe (i.e. time doesn't run backward) make it impossible to be otherwise -- clearly SCOTUS cannot rule on a piece of legislation until it has already been passed by both the Legislative and the Executive branch. But "final say" is not the same as "exclusive say".



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4373971 - 07/06/05 12:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Ancalagon writes:

Quote:

The way the clause is written, the Federal Government has the same scope of powers with foreign nations as it does with 'the several states.' Carrying this along, everything the federal government does today under the banner of the commerce clause in the United States, it would be constitutionally justified in doing all across the world. I'll leave to the imagination what this entails.




Incorrect. Observe the precision of language used:

Quote:

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;




"With" and "among" are not synonyms.



Phred


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Phred]
    #4374033 - 07/06/05 12:36 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Regulate is the operative word as far as I'm concerned.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Phred]
    #4374088 - 07/06/05 12:54 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SCOTUS can (and does) decide certain legislation originating in Congress (or through Executive Order) violates the Constitution




or they can decide that it does not violate the constitution...however counterintuitive a decision either way may be...in other words..the SCOTUS can commit acts of "jury nullification" too...

Quote:

The federal government does not have unlimited power. Their power is limited to what the Constitution grants them.




and who decides what power the constitution grants them??...see above...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4374143 - 07/06/05 01:18 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"Few people see the logical absurdity of letting a government decide the meaning of the very document that is supposed to limit that government's powers."
- Joseph Sobran


--------------------
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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4374173 - 07/06/05 01:32 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

While Sobran's statement has a glib and ironic appeal, it leaves one to wonder just whom he would find preferable to entrust the decision to.

Jefferson despaired the problem was an insoluble one, and was more than partway convinced the only solution was a periodic (he guessed every two decades or so) overthrow by the people of the existing government.

I'm not convinced he was mistaken, though his timeframe may have been a bit off.



Phred


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InvisibleClean
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4374843 - 07/06/05 07:50 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

who were the founding fathers?

they were freemasons. murderers, pirates, mind controllers, masters of deception, rapists and genocidal maniacs.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Clean]
    #4374981 - 07/06/05 09:41 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't see anything wrong with being a Freemason, but would you care to explain how the founding fathers were the other things you listed?


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Phred]
    #4375529 - 07/06/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
While Sobran's statement has a glib and ironic appeal, it leaves one to wonder just whom he would find preferable to entrust the decision to.



Sobran correctly points out ONE of the weaknesses of the constitution, you'll have to ask him what better idea (if any) he has. There were quite a few people who saw (at the time of the Constitution's creation) the inherent dangers in vesting too much power in a central government. We have these people to thank for the Bill of Rights (now largely eviscerated). Sadly, they were most prescient in their warnings.

Quote:

Jefferson despaired the problem was an insoluble one, and was more than partway convinced the only solution was a periodic (he guessed every two decades or so) overthrow by the people of the existing government



It may be interesting to brainstorm on the defects of the constitution from the perspective of advocates of a limited government and possible changes or additions which may better serve to protect the liberties of the common man. However, I am not sure that any piece of paper can serve as an effective bulwark against the encroachments of those who would increase state power if the average citizen is more concerned with perceived security and using the state as a proxy to plunder his neighbor for his own ends than he is with liberty. To quote Justice Learned Hand, "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it."


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: who were the "founding fathers"?... [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4375794 - 07/06/05 03:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

However, I am not sure that any piece of paper can serve as an effective bulwark against the encroachments of those who would increase state power if the average citizen is more concerned with perceived security and using the state as a proxy to plunder his neighbor for his own ends than he is with liberty.




Exactly. It is an apparently insoluble dilemma.

This is why many well-meaning people are pessimistic of the chances for success of Iraq's experiment with constitutionally limited republican government. They believe there isn't yet enough of an ingrained cultural disposition in the people in that part of the world for it to succeed.

Quote:

"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it."




A succinct summation of my take on the Canadian people and their relation to their government.




Phred


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