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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Paul Stamets, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

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Offlineblackout
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Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54%
    #4371401 - 07/05/05 07:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

In TMC they recommend 49-54% for rye (avg 51.5%), on the next page he says 48-52% (avg 50%) lets say and average of 51%.
They say most rye is about 11% moisture already so, 100g of "dry grain" is really 89g. If 89g is to have a water content of say 51% then we should add 81.6ml of water to 100g of "dry grain" to give 89+11+81.6ml=181.6g of which 92.6ml is water.

Anno (quoted on sporeworks) recommends 105-110ml to 100g grain. This would result in up to 121ml per 89 dry which is 57.6% water content. Not too much more but TMC seems very specific.

All grains from different sources will have varying natural moisture levels which can be calculated by drying them out. It would be a good way of calculating how much water to add to new grains that nobody has tried yet. I have barley in mind for my next grow. Popcorners seem to have trouble determining the correct moisture levels. I prefer to go drier than wetter with grains.

I find weighing is the most important thing with microwave sterilization, using ready canned substrates can be calculated by drying out and calculating the correct moisture levels required.


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Edited by blackout (07/05/05 07:27 AM)


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4371643 - 07/05/05 10:49 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I add more, closer to 70% water, to my rye..when fruiting from it. If just spawn, theres usually WBS in and less water, not sure exactly how much..the rye expands to 3 times its size though when I'm done with it.


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Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4374800 - 07/06/05 06:34 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Thats seems a huge amount of water, I think Una from mushmush also used a lot of water. I don't think my wheat could hold that much water, if I tried I have no doubt the kernels would be exploding all over the place. I prefer drier grain as I nearly always end up with wet spot if I go for wet grain.


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4374974 - 07/06/05 09:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I dont know exactly how much water i use... but my WBS tends to expand by 2 1/2 to 3 times as well. Seems to work out great!


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4375826 - 07/06/05 03:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

70% water content means you are adding 196ml water to 100g dry rye, that seems an awful lot.

As for the WBS expanding, do you soak 1 dry litre and end up with 3 litres wet? I don't like working in volumes, weights are more accurate as to what is going on, I was very surprised that TMC gave its grain to water recipies only in volumes


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4375867 - 07/06/05 03:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I only know how much water I use in my WBS by volume, but here it is.. I simmer 3 dry quarts, and I end up PCing 4 hydrated quarts..


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: Kalix]
    #4375898 - 07/06/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This is from mushmush...

500 ml jar/microbox
125 g rye
160 ml water

1000 ml jar/microbox
250 g rye
280 ml water

filter patch bag (4 liters effective)
1600 g rye
1350 ml water


I think the last one may be the wrong way around. The ratios to 100g of dry rye work out as
128ml
112ml
84ml (or 118ml if it was a typo)


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: Kalix]
    #4375911 - 07/06/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I am not sure that it is 70% water content...but with Rye...I would soak and it would double in size....then after simmering with the grains bursting (I like about 10% burst) and loading into jars (I also add a small amount of verm to the draining rye to soak up some extra water), I have 3 times as many jars as I started with...generally I scoop out 7 dry quarts of rye (3/4 filled) and I end up with 20 (3/4 filled). To me that says about 33% dry material or so, and figuring theres already some moisture, maybe less dry material so I guessed around 70%. And then poo also expands to about 3 times its dry wet when fully hydrated so thats somewhere around the same.

Now that I think about it though..its more like 8 quarts dry material, because I put a quart 3/4 filled of dry verm in with the mix with straining...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4375981 - 07/06/05 04:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It seems it does grow a lot in volume which may be giving over estimates. On sporeworks for a US pint 472ml it recommends 100g rye (125ml rye) and 110ml water, on the photo it looks about 2/3 full which is about 315ml. Seems it definitely more than doubles in size as double its initial would be 250ml, which is only about 1/2 a jar.

Your 8 quarts turning into 20 quarts is a x2.5 increase, which is almost exactly the same as the sporeworks jars being full 2/3, i.e. 125ml of dry rye becomes 315ml which is about 2.5 times the starting volume.

Thats all estimates though. I suppose the best way is to just try different levels of water with your own grain and moisture levels. Just seems odd that I have not found a recommendation close to the TMC's, except for mushmush's possible typo, all of them recommend more water than Stamets.


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4378001 - 07/07/05 12:57 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It could be because in TMC its recommended to use the rye as spawn...or is that for fruiting directly off of it? I put in much less when using it as spawn...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4378301 - 07/07/05 02:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

blackout, instead of tripping on all of that stuff, why not just add about 30% vermiculite to the substrate? That way the moisture isn't so critical. I do. It's especially nice if you want to inject a whole bunch of liquid culture (say 30-60ml per dry pound of grain). Grain alone just can soak up all the liquid culture. Grain with vermiculite can, and the result is super rapid colonization. I just colonized a huge 8-pound bag of grain (wet weight) in about 5 days using a lot of liquid culture. Nothing could have been easier either.


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4378613 - 07/07/05 04:09 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It could be because in TMC its recommended to use the rye as spawn



I don't think they say what it is for. I now Anno changes water content for spawn/fruiting.

Quote:

blackout, instead of tripping on all of that stuff, why not just add about 30% vermiculite to the substrate?



Yes a good idea, I was just wondering why every recipie I see says to use more water than the TMC recommends. I purposely leave my grains a bit dry so I can add a good 60ml of LC, it speeds up colonisation dramatically, sometimes the jars do not even need shaking.


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Edited by blackout (07/07/05 04:10 AM)


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #4379193 - 07/07/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

If you are using enough LC, you don't need to shake. That's part of the beauty of using LC. The faster you can get that grain the colonize the better.


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: Blue Helix]
    #7236041 - 07/29/07 11:59 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I am bringing this post back from the dead but with reason. I was reading TMC again and checking some figures. Stamets gives measurements in a mixture of ml & cup sizes. I hate using volumes when measuring dry grains. Depending on the volume and shape of the container and the grains you will have different weights per volume.

Stamets gives his own values of grain weight per volume earlier in the book. If you make up grains like his volume formulas then you do end up with water additions of about 100ml per 100g rye grain.

A recent post was talking of soaking rice overnight and it still being shakeable when cooked, seemed to colonise nicely. I soaked some rice overnight and checked the weight, turned out it was about 50% as recommended in TMC. I have soaked and steamed some up, it grew a little after steaming but is still perfectly shakeable, just like rye. I rinsed it several times to make sure there was little starch, I also dried the grains off, put them on a towel and soaked up any water on the outside. I used easy cook brown rice. I have heard that easy cook is more nutritious and does not stick as easily. It is already partially precooked I hear it is steamed or heated under pressure, maybe not pressure cooked but it will no doubt kill off some nasties. I read the precooking helps gelatinze the startch inside the grain, and forces nutrients from the outside to the inside.

This could be good news for people looking to make bulk grains without a bulk sized PC. I have steamed up 1kilo of rice in a tupperware dish with filter disc siliconed on and a self healing silicone inoculation port. It is only about 45% moisture content.

My plan is to inject a good 100ml of LC into the container. Mix it up well and I will hopefully not even have to shake again. I have done this before with jars and had no need to shake. The container is 4.5L, 1kg of my rice at 50% water content takes up about 2.2L. If I never have to shake the rice after innoc it could be colonised in 5-7days with lots of LC. Then I could dump casing mix straight on top of it. The tupperware dish has been used as a grow chamber before. I expect it will tear through the casing. I never liked all the shaking with grains, then when colonised they are dumped out and mixed and cased. I always thought all this stress is best avoided, people mess about with MJ plants alot and many find it stresses it too much. I would imagine the myc would be nice and strong if never shaked and casing added direct. It also allows a cleaner technique, no mixing in the open air, just dump sterile casing ontop, I should have enough room to even fruit in my 4.5L container.

Here is a pic of the container from a while back.



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Edited by blackout (07/29/07 12:08 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: blackout]
    #7236156 - 07/29/07 12:43 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I've found that rye and other grains colonize faster when prepared on the dry side. Let them colonize this way, and then do a dunk/soak to put the moisture in for the flush. The grain tek I use, which I've posted several times on this board and demonstrate in my DVD, results in about 40% water content by weight.
RR


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Re: Who uses rye grain with the moisture content quoted in TMC 48-54% [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7236244 - 07/29/07 01:29 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I like leaving them purposely dry so I can add lots of LC, speeds up colonisation hugely. I have found that if you cook up rice or grains with a lot of water and then dry them out a little in the oven or microwave then they soak up additional water very easily. I think the cells expand out like sponges and when you dry them out they are still left out in an expanded state. e.g. if you have 100g of rice and soak it overnight it might get to 170g, if you cook it then it will get to 300g, if you dry that out to 170g then if you soaked it again it would take on additional water. While the uncooked rice will never get much above 170g no matter how long it soaks.


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Paul Stamets, Rye Grain, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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