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Invisibleagar
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The good stuff
    #4371250 - 07/05/05 04:22 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Generally, prefabricated mushroom substrate mainly consists of two principle nutritional components, lignocellulose and microbial biomass (De Groot et al.,1998b; Whiteford et al., 2000).

Lignocellulose consists of lignin, cellulose and hemicellulose in a 3:3:1 ratio (Whiteford et al., 2000). Mycelium cannot convert carbon to nitrogen. Therefor a source of compatible nitrogen must be in the substrate.

Highly nutritional substrate generally support slower and finer texture spawn growth. In less nutritional substrate, spawn growth is more rapid and brighter white with more rhizomorphs, suggesting the spawn is seeking nutrients.

mycelium -- the filamentous vegetative portion of a fungus, specifically excluding the fruiting structure or reproductive phase of the life cycle. In some cases mycelial strands may join to form thick strands called rhizomorphs.

Rhizomorph A dense mass of mycilia hyphae forming a root-like macroscopic structure that functions in searching for and trans-location of moisture, and nutrients.



A sponge provides an excellent example for understanding what a good mushroom substrate consistency should be like. A sponge is a fibrous mass containing a large network of open pores. Imagine the fabric of a sponge as nutrients, and it?s open pore spaces holding moisture, and air. The open pores provide a passage for fresh oxygen-carrying air to enter and gases to exit.

In quantitative terms, a partially wrung-out sponge represents a substrate with a moisture content in the range of about 65 to 70 percent by weight (i.e. wet weight). That is the moisture range mycelium prefer, and thrive in. The pores of a completely water saturated sponge, on the other hand, are filled with water so gases cannot easily pass through.

A completely water saturated sponge is almost anaerobic (without oxygen). Beneficial microbes thrive in aerobic conditions. Bacterial blooms that are not beneficial to mycelium often thrive in anaerobic conditions. Anaerobic conditions with minimal respiration is often referred to as fermentation.

If a substrate ferments, mycelium within it usually dies from a combination of factors occurring within the substrate. Alcohol is deadly to mycelia. Fermentation often turns sugars within a substrate to alcohol (ethanol).

Substrate temperatures during spawn run is another critical factor, and should be maintained in the range of 74 to 76F. However, because substrate nutrients, composition, and consistency vary so widely amongst cultivators, various heat related problems often occur.

If a substrate is not properly conditioned, mesophilic microbes (A group of bacteria that grow and thrive in a moderate temperature range between 68 F (20 C) and 113 F (45 C). most often become active feeding on richer nutrients within a substrate.

Substrate temperatures above the compost conditioning range and anaerobic conditions may result in readily available carbohydrates and a lower pH in a substrate. This combination generally favors the growth of Trichoderma (green mold).

As spawn begin colonizing a substrate, hypha contact each other, then fuse together (anastomose), and metabolic activity increases. More CO2, water vapor, other gases, and heat is produced. Mycelium is heat sensitive and its fruiting mechanism can be easily damaged at higher than optimal temperatures.

When excess heat reaches the surface of the substrate, it should be removed by evaporative cooling and convection. Cooler air moving across the surface of the substrate removes the heat from the substrate.

Evaporative cooling is the removal of heat when liquid turns to gas, and occurs when dry air moves across the surface substrate moisture is lost and heat removed with it. Too much evaporative cooling is detrimental, since substrate will tend to dry out too much.

A high quality mushroom substrate should have a physical composition that is high in nutritious fiber (creating open air spaces), not be compacted (so - open air spaces remain open), have a moisture content in the 65 to 70% range (mycelium thrive in), but not completely saturated with moisture, which causes anaerobic conditions, and during spawn runs - the temperatures should be carefully controlled, so the substrate does not overheat.

Fruit bodies obtain 54-83% of their water from the substrate and 17-46% from the casing layer (Kalberer, 1985). Consequently, optimal casing should be applied to a fully colonized substrate, then carefully watered during the fruiting cycles.

agar will quit with the rambling on ----->now.


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Edited by agar (07/05/05 04:52 AM)


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Offlineoysterguy63
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4371704 - 07/05/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That will answer many a question, and put one or two things in the proper perspective for me as well. Thanks Agar for raising the collective IQ of the Shroomery membership.


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Oysters...yuummmmm


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InvisibleFreedomFight
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Re: The good stuff [Re: oysterguy63]
    #4372241 - 07/05/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Pretty sweet post, maybe this should go into the wiki or some FAQ on here?


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I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4372466 - 07/05/05 04:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks Agar, you know I was going to ask you to expand a little more on this last night but was too tired,lol.

Question now. After poo is 100% colonized and you case it, can you then place it in higher temps., or do you still need to keep it in that 74-76 degree zone. Just wondering how to get my 10 degree temp drop to help induce pinning.

Great Post. Thanks for the info.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:

I'll pay the extra  $7 shipping,lol.


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4372537 - 07/05/05 04:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:

Substrate temperatures during spawn run is another critical factor, and  should be maintained in the range of 74 to 76F. However, because substrate nutrients, composition, and consistency vary so widely amongst cultivators, various heat related problems often occur.






Is this accurate? I'm with Hippie in wondering about heating after the spawn run. To drop the temps another 10 degrees from 74 to 76F is gonna put my electric bill through the roof    :shocked:


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Invisibleagar
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Re: The good stuff [Re: FooMan]
    #4372555 - 07/05/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You get the HEAT SPIKES.............

DURING THE SPAWN RUN, as metabolic activity increases - as increased colonization occurs.

It is what large scale edible producers do & they are not dummies.

I hear ya on costs.

This spring - installed a stand alone AC unit - to overcome overheating problems, as I had a few overheat & ferment :mad2:.

Point worth noting. I salvaged a few that overheated & managed to fruit them - out.



Pinning was lousy & uneven - fruits were sterile - without spores.
That tells me - it is a fact - overheating damages fruiting mechanisms.


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4372655 - 07/05/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I see, said the blind man. :eek:

Agar, you should really write your own cultivation book. You would be able to give a ton of pointers that I'm sure the other guides don't cover. Throw in that story about the 55 gallon drum of poo with the tripod- We're talking New York Times Best Seller List :smile:


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Invisibleagar
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Re: The good stuff [Re: FooMan]
    #4372662 - 07/05/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

LOL....... a book.........then a CHEECH & CHONG comedy movie.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4372717 - 07/05/05 05:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

D.O.H. gets my vote.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:

This is from the same scenario,



One on the left was "fermented". Center never colonized.( One on the right is my first poo casing on it's fourth flush). This is it's first flush. Caps are cracked on these, but harvested these two an hour before,



one was 62 grams , the other 22 and both looked O.K.

PEACE.


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Invisibleagar
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Re: The good stuff [Re: HippieChick]
    #4374819 - 07/06/05 07:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick said:






I just noticed that you have a tray - wrapped on the sides - to hold out light & prevent bottom & side pinning. Looks like the other has foil inside it - with the substrate - on top the foil. You know - myc emits digestive enzymes - that can eat holes in tin foil.

A cheap simple thing to do is nest identical trays (WalMart - KMart -Dollar Store @ $1 each X 2) - with aluminum foil between - the two. Makes for a sturdy tray & works perfectly - to hold out light.





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Offlineblackout
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4374911 - 07/06/05 08:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Or spray paint a load of tubs, outside only.
The larger the substrate the larger the rise in temps. If you put in tubs with a small gap between them it would help with heat loss through the sides of containers.

Another way to cool would be to lay down half your depth of substrate, then get a long thin hose and lay it out winding all around the substrate evenly and coming out into a drain, then put the top layer of substrate down. Then just run cold water through the hose to cool it down.


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Edited by blackout (07/06/05 09:00 AM)


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Invisibleagar
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Re: The good stuff [Re: blackout]
    #4374957 - 07/06/05 09:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Experience has taught me - spray paint on slick plastic trays - doesn't stick, or hold up well. If you slide them on a wire shelf, open mesh metal rack, often the paint wipes right off. :mad2:

As for overheating that can happen with big bulk substrate trays.

I have come to the conclusion, 12 quart trays - with about 3.5 to 4 inches of bulk substrate & around an inch of casing material is optimal.

In so far as they are not that large, are easy to handle, will not generally overheat if the substrate is fairly aerobic & you control the ambient incubation temperatures. They will yield several very good heavy healthy flushes - before they begin to peter out, or start to contaminate.



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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4385321 - 07/08/05 11:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I also do like HC, with the substrate on the foil, even though it eats holes in it. Without the inner tub, the substrate also adhears to the foil a bit, and if any shrinkage occurs, the tin foil shrinks with the casing so the sides dont become exposed drying it out even more.

I accidentally came across this searching for something else, missed it before...cool shit :smile:


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Invisibleagar
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Re: The good stuff [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4385918 - 07/09/05 03:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

In a way, you can use a fruiting substrate pulling away from the sides - to advantage.

I harvest, clean & patch the casing material, then pour clean water into the open space around the tray edges.

Then - wait a half or full hour to let the substrate absorb as much moisture as possible.

Then tip the tray & pour off any excess water remaining in/on the sides / bottom of the tray. Then - stuff casing material into the void, which seals the moisture in.

Doing so - often leads to healthy robust 2nd, 3rd, 4th flushes. As - the substrate has a full moisture capacity - to grow then 2nd & 3rd flush big honkers - with.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: The good stuff [Re: agar]
    #4386669 - 07/09/05 01:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I do the same thing Agar. I just fill the gaps with verm.(dry) and then soak it with my mister. I was experimenting with the foil. Seems cool but I'm pretty sure it helped with my first attempts at poo fermenting. Retaining heat like a baked potato,lol. But so did using those stainless steel restaurant pans. They're made to retain heat.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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OfflineAsianYumYum
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Re: The good stuff [Re: HippieChick]
    #4386706 - 07/09/05 01:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

im basking in the glory of agar here. thanks for all the great info in this thread!!


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Hail to the King Baby


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Invisiblememes
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Re: The good stuff [Re: AsianYumYum]
    #4389283 - 07/10/05 09:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

great thread agar, i know i learned a lot.


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