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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
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Showing vs. Telling
    #4369134 - 07/04/05 12:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It seems that many people here (and in any collective of 'philosophers' that are largely inexperienced in academic reality) like to talk about the things that they believe/think will be happening, analogies explaining how they think something works, and declarations of strong opinions. Rarely do you see a coherant and clear explanation of the reasoning behind the ideas.

It's not uncommon for someone, for instance to declare their belief that the American economy is on the brink of collapse, justified not by the validity of the reasoning behind the idea, but by the honesty and credibility of those from whom the idea is originating.

ie. "Unlike Bush's brainwashed legion of economist talking heads, this guy is totally independant, and not simply spouting off whatever Bush tells him. That's how I know I can trust what he says."

It's fine to take into consideration the honesty of a source, but for something that is based on speculation and reasoning, honesty has nothing to do with it. Resorting to that kind of judgement is sheer laziness; an unwillingness to seriously study the work that the idea is based upon. The logic used to reach the conclusion that was reached is what needs to be considered.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: Phluck]
    #4369189 - 07/04/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you post here, Phluck.

I, of course, and not discriminating myself from the description above.  I often think that people (not just here on the boards) are of this mindset...

As far as opinions are considered, everyone has one.  Whether one is to agree or disagree is irrelevant.  What can we do to make our replies more logical and rational?  I guess the answer would be to quit analyzing with emotions and personal thought, of course.

This is very difficult to do, even when highly schooled in a particular subject.  I agree with the lack of consideration to study being laziness, but even people with the logical knowledge tend to over-exaggerate due o personal thought.

How can we alter these opnions and over-active ego-mind wonderment?  I don't know as if we can.  I think thats part of being "human".

Do aliens have opinions, I wonder.....?

:smile:

Good post!


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A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: Phluck]
    #4369380 - 07/04/05 02:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

  I know everyone could tell me everything. Very interesting to look at this place :grin:
BUT, with reasonability and scientific proof, everyone will raise his credibility.
Even psychology has started to use 'scientific' methods, as it realized, that it won't come any further with all those fantasy armchair-psychologists from the last century.
I hope to see the techniques of science, all above 'objectivity' to apply even in spirituality an philosophy. It's a base, everyone can rely on.
All further, is speculation, or subjective experienced realisations, which also can be very useful, but should be marked as that.
There exist some rules for a discussion at least :wink:

I hope to have hit a bit of the point this time :wink:

Yes, good and necessary post !


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: Phluck]
    #4369762 - 07/04/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

logical reasoning is greatly lacking in this forum.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: alsey]
    #4370269 - 07/04/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well I don't got no formal edumacation thingy! What do you expect. And I take drugs too.  :faded:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: alsey]
    #4370309 - 07/04/05 10:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
logical reasoning is greatly lacking in this forum.




Logical reasoning, is so logic, that it is logic, that logic  is unlogical!

:heart:


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Disclaimer!?


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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: Icelander]
    #4371523 - 07/05/05 09:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

here's an excellent page on logical fallacies:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

if you avoid those 42 things, then you will have a good logical argument. i honestly think everyone here should give it a read.

but then there are those who deny the validity of logic. doing this makes any debate pointless, since without logic, everything is true and untrue simultaneously.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Offlinemikeytwice
Wanderer

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 195
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: Gomp]
    #4371525 - 07/05/05 09:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Unfortunately, if you want to say anything about anything specialized, you most likely need to resign yourself to the authority of a given group or individual. Of course, it'd be best if people chose to believe what seemed to them to be the most reasonable rather than what agrees with their perceived notions of what the world is and should be like. Experts disagree all the time though... who to believe (especially when it comes to a soft science like economics)? Sometimes it might be best to just acknowledge one's own ignorance of the subject. A smart but wrong person can sound highly reasonable, especially if his or her views agree with yours, so yea, beware.


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\


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OfflineLazyCrash
I like gas.
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Registered: 07/02/05
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Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4371549 - 07/05/05 10:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If everyone was devoid of personal thought and emotions when making decisions, then there would probably only be one obvious answer to everything. But then, there'd be a lack of 'human experience'.

One of the reasons we are here, according to Zoe Seven (who, I admit, is sometimes f'in crazy, but I still think he's on to some things), is to be part of the 'realm of probabilities'. I don't think probabilities could exist without individualities.

But yeah...some people should think a little more outside of themselves before they say things.

I bet aliens have opinions. Like, "I can't believe all those hippies are playing with that horse crap!"  :tongue2:


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:mallow:


Edited by LazyCrash (07/05/05 10:22 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Showing vs. Telling [Re: alsey]
    #4371595 - 07/05/05 10:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"everything is true and untrue simultaneously. "

YIPPEE! :thumbup: :heart: :heart:

I will give it a read though. :thumbup: :grin: 42?  isn't that the answer to some important question?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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