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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
the ethics of suicide.
    #4365721 - 07/03/05 09:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

this is a delicate subject, i know, but why do we discourage others who are inclined towards suicide? is it because we believe something bad will happen to them if they kill themselves? or is it because it will make us unhappy/guilty? or is it some kind of evolutionary duty to keep our fellow humans in the survival competition? is life really a better path than death?

personally, if someone wants to kill themselves, i think so be it. i have often pondered killing myself, not because i hate my life, but because i think death may be better than life. the few minutes that i have spent without an ego under the influence of drugs have been the best few minutes of my 'life'. to be honest, the only reason i have not killed myself is that i still have some fear of death. almost a subconcious worry that i might go to hell or something bad might happen, even though that idea seems retarded when i think about it logically. to me, suicide is the logical thing to do with my life, but i cannot make myself do it.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4365729 - 07/03/05 09:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I cannot disagree with you to a (certain) degree.

I can also relate to where death appears more glorious than life...

The sensitivity of the subject is to be dismissed in this case.

Now some may say thins is a cheating way out of living, but would you rather die from unhealthy old age, social security, and unstable retirement...

Be admitted to a nursing home, not able to make your own decisions, or being senile, etc?

Or living life to the healthiest and fullest, all of which may fail (all of the above).

Truth is you never know the future of things, and destiny is destiny. If you are meant to cut this life short, than so be it.

I often feel the same way. What holds me back? Not fear of death, because if there is an after life, I would love nothing more than to reestablish existance with my mother (my she rest in eternal peace), and live with no evil surrounding. To be reincarnated with her would be great as well. But lessons learned are lessons learned. There is always uncertainty, yet that is nothing to be scared of, considering everything is based off of perception.

Our minds can create our own realities, and my philosophy is that no matter how you worry about the [things] of today, the same thing is destine to happen tomorrow, to a [degree]. now how do you determine the line? that is within your own mind. how much can you take? whether death is inflicted by "suicide" or "old age" or cancer (now a days everything causes cancer) we are all going to die.

This society can appeal to be mighty unpleasing, for sure, it is just a kind over matter of fact, how far we want to take the bullshit, and how many lessons we can learn in this life.

IMO.

-Ares


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4365735 - 07/03/05 09:32 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Very good questions.  Life belongs to the individual. Only he/she knows how it feels to bare living and so can make the choice to live or die.

But how is death better than life? Could one not find a way to live love. Egolessness, maybe does not mean no ego. It could mean the ego is no longer out of balance or in distress.  I think the natural condition of man/woman is joyfullness.  What do you think? :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4365739 - 07/03/05 09:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I've often thought about this in regards to homeless bums.

If only they knew that they can find the Ultimate Transcendence at the end of a shotgun barrel.

Some may say it is their innately death-fearing ego that keeps them from realizing that they could rejoice to Nothingness in any moment at their own choice.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: Icelander]
    #4365784 - 07/03/05 09:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The ego is very quick to gain control....

the immediate populus may recall this as

"the debil"


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4365790 - 07/03/05 09:54 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
this is a delicate subject, i know, but why do we discourage others who are inclined towards suicide? is it because we believe something bad will happen to them if they kill themselves? or is it because it will make us unhappy/guilty? or is it some kind of evolutionary duty to keep our fellow humans in the survival competition? is life really a better path than death?

personally, if someone wants to kill themselves, i think so be it. i have often pondered killing myself, not because i hate my life, but because i think death may be better than life. the few minutes that i have spent without an ego under the influence of drugs have been the best few minutes of my 'life'. to be honest, the only reason i have not killed myself is that i still have some fear of death. almost a subconcious worry that i might go to hell or something bad might happen, even though that idea seems retarded when i think about it logically. to me, suicide is the logical thing to do with my life, but i cannot make myself do it.




because we know they are being emotional. Life is too precious the be manipulated by emotions and moods.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4365799 - 07/03/05 09:57 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

alsey said:
this is a delicate subject, i know, but why do we discourage others who are inclined towards suicide? is it because we believe something bad will happen to them if they kill themselves? or is it because it will make us unhappy/guilty? or is it some kind of evolutionary duty to keep our fellow humans in the survival competition? is life really a better path than death?

personally, if someone wants to kill themselves, i think so be it. i have often pondered killing myself, not because i hate my life, but because i think death may be better than life. the few minutes that i have spent without an ego under the influence of drugs have been the best few minutes of my 'life'. to be honest, the only reason i have not killed myself is that i still have some fear of death. almost a subconcious worry that i might go to hell or something bad might happen, even though that idea seems retarded when i think about it logically. to me, suicide is the logical thing to do with my life, but i cannot make myself do it.




because we know they are being emotional. Life is too precious the be manipulated by emotions and moods.



Agreed. as a highly emotional yet creative female, i deal with this every day of my life. i am working on meditating it out right now.

I have experienced egoloss without substance in the past, but am feeling mighty weak this good morning.

but i can undertsnad the power of mind, feeling, fire and emotion taking over what "may be real" and rational...

:sigh:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4365808 - 07/03/05 10:00 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

XOIIAresIIOX said:
The ego is very quick to gain control....

the immediate populus may recall this as

"the debil"




The ego is easily damaged by trauma. Then it can be difficult to retrain, and return to it's origional condition. But it can be done IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4365811 - 07/03/05 10:01 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Emotions, feelings, experiences are all part of life, and are not to be avoided, but non of them should control the life.
You life to feel, but you do not feel to live (or not live).

It's life food, it is natural to enjoy food, but food must not take over and control how you think and what you do.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,326
Loc: On the Border
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4365826 - 07/03/05 10:07 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

There is no evidence of life after death. Even if there is life after death it could mean total loss of personality, free will, and memories. That means the total loss of self. Many people here assume there is life after death, but it is not required to validate religious thought. What we have is here and now and it is, for all practical purposes, all we have. This makes it precious and sacred. To think that death is going to be like having a big acid trip...or that you can even concieve of what it is is stupidity and arrogance. Suicide can be a viable option for people who's quality of life has been irreversably degraded beyond what is humane through illness or injury. You will see death soon enough so why put your friends and familly through such turmoil just because you were an idiot? The only thing that is important is here and now...that is the seed from which the future grows.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
Female

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 3,509
Loc: The Sea
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4365885 - 07/03/05 10:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Emotions, feelings, experiences are all part of life, and are not to be avoided, but non of them should control the life.
You life to feel, but you do not feel to live (or not live).

It's life food, it is natural to enjoy food, but food must not take over and control how you think and what you do.




in very much aggreeance my friend :smile:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4366033 - 07/03/05 11:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
There is no evidence of life after death. Even if there is life after death it could mean total loss of personality, free will, and memories.




yeah, i realise that. i do not believe there is life after death (although i believe there will be a brief period of altered-conciousness immediately after the body dies. what i'm saying is, to me, absolute nothingness is more desireable than anything that life in this world can offer.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,685
gone [Re: alsey]
    #4366050 - 07/03/05 12:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I still honour the memory of him departed by his own hand.
I would have stayed that hand to the last possible tic of the clock if I could, and this too he knew.

farewell my beloved brother, you are always with me still.


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OfflineGog
hapless andhappy

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 373
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: gone [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4366103 - 07/03/05 12:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The only thing that is important is here and now...that is the seed from which the future grows.

Agreed. That's why I think Hell awaits those who commit suicide out of fear, or simply getting sick of everything. If you are seeking to escape your misery through such a deed, you will only encounter it ten-fold.

You must actually work through a problem. There is no cure.

And as the Holy Claypool once said, "there ain't no cure for sui-cide!!"


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4366117 - 07/03/05 12:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

XOIIAresIIOX said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Emotions, feelings, experiences are all part of life, and are not to be avoided, but non of them should control the life.
You life to feel, but you do not feel to live (or not live).

It's life food, it is natural to enjoy food, but food must not take over and control how you think and what you do.




in very much aggreeance my friend :smile:





I see you have entered 70's, good luck with that


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Registered: 02/27/01
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4366121 - 07/03/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

HueHuecoyotyl said it best.

Go to the beach or go have sex with a million men. The world's great in some ways.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: alsey]
    #4366132 - 07/03/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

My ex recently tried to kill herself. When I found out about it, I told her how much it would hurt me if she had succeeded. I tried to talk her out of it for purely selfish reasons. I don't know what would lie ahead for her, but it would hurt me immensely. That said, I still believe that it is ultimately the right of the individual to choose their own destiny.


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4366348 - 07/03/05 02:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"HueHuecoyotyl said it best.

Go to the beach or go have sex with a million men. The world's great in some ways."

Your interpretation is quite colorful. I don't think I said anything like that.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4366388 - 07/03/05 03:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Paradigm shows an interesting twist to the argument: If we say it is an evolutionary function to help our fellow man, why does it seem the reasons we do it are completely selfish?

Notice, we may think we're being altruistic, but in reality we're just making ourselves feel better. We know we'd be hurt if they killed themselves, so we try to stop it. We know it'd hurt us to see the families grieving and crying over their dead child, so we try to make them live. Possibly because suffering, like pain, is completely personal on an evolutionary level; it exists entirely within our brain, so the evolutionary advantage of helping others live their life only manifests itself as pleasure in our personal brains.

Yet most humans wouldn't try to stop a serial killer and rapist from killing himself; some might even egg him on. From an evolutionary perpsective, I believe humans have evolved to see suicide like a self-imposed death sentence; for those humans who can contribute to the species, we try to stop them so they can help us, but for those who harm us and create strong hatred in us, chances are we wouldn't stop them.

Nothing's actually wrong with suicide though. We all die eventually, so what's a few years or a few decades sooner? No matter what path we take, we will all come to the same end. The pain that is caused will die out, whether in a few weeks or a few decades, and soon the person will be forgotten either way.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineGog
hapless andhappy

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 373
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: the ethics of suicide. [Re: Ravus]
    #4366725 - 07/03/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If you killed yourself though, I would be both pitiful and contemptuous of your deed. Unless it was for the good of the world.


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