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OfflineRedNucleus
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What exists, from my perspective (includes psychic phenomena- please read!)
    #4364661 - 07/03/05 12:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Everything is made of particles that interact according to certain principles. Humans are a number of these particles that we think of as incredibly large and complex. We consider ourselves to be so, because in comparison to the complexity of our bodies, our minds are relatively simple and feeble.

Humans recognise patterns and can record, remember and build upon those patterns to create ideas that reflect what has been perceived.

That's my idea of what is.

I was raised Roman Catholic, which I believe is foolish to follow nowadays. As a result I do not have any faith in a god or in any other greater intelligence than human kind.

I have had psychic experiences and I have had psychedelic experiences. However, I feel unable to properly explain how and why these experiences have occured for me.

I have two beliefs. One is that some ideas can be proved true or false by scientific methods. The other is that mankind can have psychic abilities. I would like to learn more about these things. However, it is very hard to learn more about psychic matters, because I do not trust people's testimony, and it has been difficult for me to develop and maintain such phenomena in my lifetime. I used to have friends who were into that sort of thing, so it used to be easier for me.

What is your view of the world? Why do you believe the things you do?




I've already gotten to the meat of what I had to say, so you can skip this if you like.

I believe in science because it is clear and tangible.
I beleive in psychic occurences because I have experienced them, and I am making the assumption that what I experience is real, and is influenced by the reality that is separate from my own body.


Edited by RedNukleus (07/03/05 02:35 AM)


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4364694 - 07/03/05 12:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Infinite love is the only truth, everything else is illusion."


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4364727 - 07/03/05 12:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

you're gorgeous, and I like that quote, but it doesn't seem like it applies to reality, though it would be wonderful if it did.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4364765 - 07/03/05 01:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Why do you say our minds (I'm assuming mind = brain?) are relatively simple and feeble compared to the rest of our bodies? Our minds are rather complex inventions of natural selection, and are just as complex or much moreso than other areas of our bodies. How many other areas of our bodies produce consciousness, logic, and all technology and science humans have yet come upon?

Quote:

One is that some ideas can be proved true or false by scientific methods.




So you believe some things are beyond the realm of science?

I believe the things I do because they are my observations and the sum total of all the knowledge I have researched through my life. They are the response to all the perception, experiences and science I've seen. I don't believe in God or supernatural phenonema because I subject my beliefs to an excessive amount of Darwinism among themselves, along with Occam's razor to cut off any beliefs that are lacking any evidence or too complex for the evidence presented.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4364783 - 07/03/05 01:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RedNukleus said:
you're gorgeous, and I like that quote, but it doesn't seem like it applies to reality, though it would be wonderful if it did.




I believe that your mind can create your own reality, due to everyone having a different outlook, and data is only simply altered when processed from one mind, to mouth to ear of next, into processing into their mind, then relaying the information by mouth, so fourth and so on...even though math is convenient...i believe it is there stricktly for "number comfort". 

I like living fantastically, as I am Ares, the wanderer of the elvem pixie abduction forests of illusion-breaking cycles of imaginatory babbleness.  Living on in the puddles of reality :smile:

Splash away and have fun...

So i think it could apply to this reality, as anything is possible.  As broad as that may seem :smile:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


Edited by XOIIAresIIOX (07/03/05 01:07 AM)


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Offlinefutant462
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4364802 - 07/03/05 01:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A little background on myself first, I study physics and math, and as can probably be deduced by the fact I am replying to you, I enjoy a good trip here and there.

As a prospective scientist you would probably expect me to outright agree with your statement that ideas can be proved definatively true or false, but this is a question that confuses me every day. There are three possible views one can take in this matter:

1)All things in the universe fit into this true/false scheme, in which there can logically be decided and realized to be certain things which 'are' and others which 'are not.', such that saying contrary to these statements would be an act of lunacy.

2)Nothing can be described as true or false, everything merely 'is'. This is sort of the spaces between yin and yang, that both everything and nothing are there and they are inseperable and indescribable. this view is somewhat of a mixture between existentialism, and zen. This is the viewpoint that opposes science and embraces a more philosophical reasoning rather than a mathmatical concrete and 'logical' system.

3) A combination of the two, in which, by some seemingly elaborate and complicated rules certain scenarios exist where scenario 1 is true, and others for scenario 2.

I have no definitive opinion on which of these I believe it to be, and I have heard no argument, philosophical, mathmatical, or otherwise which has been rigid enough to persuade me to pick one of the above.

As for the psychic experiences, although I have dabbled in that slightly, most with regards to OBE-attempts, it was with minimal success and I'd be curious to hear in more detail about what your personal experiences are in that matter.

With regards to the particles and different levels of complexity and interaction, that is indeed a valid statement (assuming situation 1 at least, which all science must in order to have meaning) in fact it gives rise to some of the more astounding realizations that mankind has made. A great book which discusses these types of systems in a simply mind-boggling amount of detail, and how they relate to the nature of intelligence itself, is 'Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglass Hofstadter.

With regards to how psychic phenomenon may fit into a physical view of the world, I reccomend 'The Holographic Universe
by Michael Talbot which has received further backing since its publication by merging some of the theories mentioned inside with those of string theory, known as ADS/CFT theory, in order to create a possible world-view in which the holographic principle can exist and allow for similar phenomenon to the ones you had spoken about. This is not pseudo-science, this is frontier cutting edge physics and in fact Edward Witten, who is being called the greatest physicist of our time by large numbers of physicists, played a crucial role in developing these theories.

I hope that the above rambling was somewhat insightful for you and I'd be happy to chat if you have any questions.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: futant462]
    #4364819 - 07/03/05 01:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

futant462 said:

2)Nothing can be described as true or false, everything merely 'is'. This is sort of the spaces between yin and yang, that both everything and nothing are there and they are inseperable and indescribable. this view is somewhat of a mixture between existentialism, and zen. This is the viewpoint that opposes science and embraces a more philosophical reasoning rather than a mathmatical concrete and 'logical' system.





--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: Ravus]
    #4364859 - 07/03/05 01:26 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

To answer your question, I could not keep myself alive or do much of anything if the job was up to my mind. I could not make the decision of which hormone goes where when, and what cells should grow, and what chemicals to manufacture, what genes to express. The mind would be a pitiful tool for managing such things.

"So you believe some things are beyond the realm of science?"

Yes I do. Science is a human endeavor, and we are limited by our senses, and the senses of our machines, and we are constrained by the properties of time and space. How will you explain in scientific terms, anything about a lifeform outside of the Milky Way galaxy? You cannot, and no one can, because it cannot be observed. You cannot even tell me for sure that such a lifeform exists.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: futant462]
    #4364959 - 07/03/05 02:05 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I will make a note to read these:

"Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglass Hofstadter"

"The Holographic Universe"
by Michael Talbot

That was definitely a well thought out reply. Thank you!

To briefly explain my psychic experience, There were 2 types. I sought after the first, and had an idea of what it would be like before I ever practiced it. The second brand of psychic experience occurred accidently, and was far more intense for me.

In high school I practiced what we called "astral projection." The idea amongst the others that were involved was that there are other worlds with different physical properties, and that they can be reached while fully conscious. The experience was exactly like visualizing the locations we were projecting to, and that is because visualization played a big part in it; however, people would constantly perceive things about this world in the same way without having spoken to each other about the things prior.

I have 2 ideas about what we may have been actually going on.

1. It was all true and there are really astral planes etc.

2. I tend to lean more toward the possibility that the place was made up, and does not exist outside of our imaginations. However, because we all practiced meditation and trying to become in tune with this plane, the idea of the place passed between our minds psychically, and so we perceived one world that was perceived the same way by everyone. I'd describe all of this in detail but it would be long.

Now I will write about the second type of psychic experience I have had. Might as well post this while I write.


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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4364968 - 07/03/05 02:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglass Hofstadter"

Very interesting read, even for someone as irrational as me!  :grin:


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4365032 - 07/03/05 02:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The second type of psychic phenomena that I have felt in my life came about due to marijuana use. When I smoked marijuana in high school, the effects were very powerful. I would go into these trances because my mind was very strongly drugged. I used to have dreamlike visions while i was under the influence, but I would be so intoxicated that I would barely notice. Soon I began realizing that many of these visions were of events that would happen later. My dreams would also include these occurences. A few minutes into the future, and few hours, and few days, weeks- I even remember one particular dream I had that came to pass partially weeks later, and partially years later!

I have no explanation for why these things would happen. When I quit smoking marijuana the experiences began to happen less and less.

Now I'll describe some of these experiences.
I had a dream that included hanging out and conversing with a group of people. There were distinct conversations and locations in the dream. The next day I went to some aquaintances house, and smoked pot. One of the conversations from my dream actually happened in real life! It was word for word. In the dream I had observed the scene from above myself, and I remember picturing the observer as this ghostly butterfly. When it actually occured people I was wide eyed, and people were asking me why I had that look. I told them they wouldn't believe what was happening to me. I explained but I was very intoxicated at the time.
I later went up to the guy's bedroom, and it was covered with magizine clippings and other stuff. I had dreamt about the room the night before. There were some other things that happened the same day. I'll skip them

Short version of the dream that spanned a few years.
Early September 2001: I had a dream that spiderman was running around on a glass roofed building. He looked like he was out of a futuristic videogame. There was a view of the twin towers in the distance. The rest of the dream involved a very distorted city, and a voice that told me that drugs were harming me (the marijuana experience has been mostly negative for me.)

I awoke and told my mom that morning that I wanted to see the twin towers soon, because I'd been there before and I really liked them.

9/11 happened and I had already been having these weird experiences with seeing the future since the summer before, so I was not too surprised that I had dreamt about the towers. My emotional state was quite confused all the time during this period of my life, so I won't try to describe what I thought about all this.

Last year (08/04 unless I'm mistaken) I was home from college, at AFOAF's house. He sells pot and I smoked some. He had the new spider man game (spiderman the movie 2- It's set in a replica of New York City) for playstation2. I was watching. The scene from my dream with spiderman running on the glass building happened! The building was identical, and in 2001, the graphics on this game would have been considered futiristic. I asked the player of the game what that building was. He told me in a friendly manner that it was the monument to the world trade center.

Life is spooky and wonderful. I really wish I was smarter so that I could figure these things out.

Please, if you have had similar experiences, or can help me with some insight on these phenomena, Do not be afraid to talk about it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4365512 - 07/03/05 05:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You should be careful assigning significance to dreams that come true. People are very good at kidding themselves and tend to notice the one dream that comes true while forgetting the thousands that don't.

Pull the knob on the slot machine enough times, and you WILL eventually win the jackpot - because of probability, not psychic events.

It's worthwhile to note that out of the hundreds of millions of people on the Internet, not one single person anywhere posted on a dated forum a premonition about the most significant event in modern times: 9/11. Lot's of premonitions did pop up after the fact, though. :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #4365776 - 07/03/05 09:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

XOIIAresIIOX said:
Quote:

RedNukleus said:
you're gorgeous, and I like that quote, but it doesn't seem like it applies to reality, though it would be wonderful if it did.




I believe that your mind can create your own reality, due to everyone having a different outlook, and data is only simply altered when processed from one mind, to mouth to ear of next, into processing into their mind, then relaying the information by mouth, so fourth and so on...even though math is convenient...i believe it is there stricktly for "number comfort". 

I like living fantastically, as I am Ares, the wanderer of the elvem pixie abduction forests of illusion-breaking cycles of imaginatory babbleness.  Living on in the puddles of reality :smile:

Splash away and have fun...

So i think it could apply to this reality, as anything is possible.  As broad as that may seem :smile:




:thumbup: :thumbup: say it again!
Infinite love is the only truth, everything else is illusion."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: Diploid]
    #4366069 - 07/03/05 12:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I am critical and I accept the possibility of misinterpreting a serious mental dysfuntion, brought on by marijuana, as visions of the future. However, I did, for a period of many months, on a day by day basis, experience both dreams and dreamlike hallucinations while under the influence of marijuana, which included vivid imagery of lifelike experiences. These would come to pass in my waking life soon after (usually a period of a few days to weeks.) I am convinced of the reality of these things, because I would see places I had never been to and people I had never met. One time I was in bed and I heard a voice in my head reading an article. Months later I read the article, which was about my friend's boss and how he saved 4 reindeer from Alaska. The excerpt that I had hallucinated was there, word for word.

I didn't predict much of anything. When I would see these things they were accompanied by a psychedelic rush of mental activity. I usually wouldn't remember having seen the future until the event was coming to pass. However, then I would be reminded, and the memory would surface. I had a really poor short term memory during this time of my life, because that's what weed did to me.

This stuff doesn't happen to me anymore, so I am left to contemplate the past, when the threads of my existence peeked out from their seams.


Edited by RedNukleus (07/03/05 12:28 PM)


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Offlinefutant462
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4366280 - 07/03/05 02:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I am familiar with the concept of astral projection and have attempted to induce it many times, mostly with failure, but some experiences have touched fairly closely into crossing over to that 'plane.'  As such, I dont feel confident enough to say a ton about them.  However, your second point regarding them being real as an idea that you as an individual or group had created is very interesting to me, and in fact has some very interesting possibilities.  The most interesting argument that comes to mind immediately is the following: what, if any, difference is there between a 'real' astral plane that you tap into, and one which you create in your mind.  The possibility exists that we as concious beings are able to create new, and possibly temporary/permanent realities which occur in the space outside of our normal day to day lives.  Again, I dont know a ton about the subject matter myself, but perhaps a more correct way of interpretting these planes is not that you all try to tap into one, but rather create one in which you are all linked, which could help to explain the possible connections that you said were present there.  If you all lent a hand in creating said realms through your focus and imagination, it would be somewhat logical that since each of you invested a piece of your own person into this event, that it was a shared-mentallity inside this realm in which you could easily tap into the thoughts of your peers.

This of course also begs the question that this is perhaps all day-to-day life is, simply with billions of more people believing in it, hence its apparent concreteness.  Hence the statement that we all are 'God' and he is us and we are him actually makes some bit of sense, if we consider 'God'(not in the sense of any one particular religion) the creator, we can actually say this with a piece of logic to back it up for once rather than, "that's what the man in the funny clothes says is right, so just accept it!" 

I also would caution linking dream/drug coincidences too heavily, or rather, assigning large amounts of meaning to them.  It's certainly fascinating, but the easiest person to fool of all is yourself, so just excersize caution is all... but don't stop believing in it either :wink:


--------------------
"no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power.?
-P.J. O'Rourke

What is a Quantum Particle?
The Dreams that stuff is made of!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4368949 - 07/04/05 10:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The excerpt that I had hallucinated was there, word for word.

In a recent thread,

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4354172/an/0/page/0

I described an experiment in the field of neurology which showed that the brain sets into motion the neurological chain of events required for an action approximately a third of a second before the person initiating the action decides to.

In other words, if you decide to snap your fingers at a given moment, your brain was already putting into action the necessary biochemical activity to snap your fingers BEFORE you consciously decided to do it.

This and other similar experiments suggest that deja vu, and the perception of premonition is actually the observing (reading an excerpt in your case) of an event, then subconsciously implanting the perception into your memory as if it happened in the past instead of in the present.

The only way to prove the premonition is real rather than imagined, is to write it down before the fact.

Again, for emphasis: not ONE SINGLE POST on any dated Internet forum spoke a word about 9/11 on 9/10, though there were plenty of claims on 9/12.

This goes for the assorted space shuttle disasters, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, [fill in the blank].

If premonitions were for real with hundreds of millions of people on the Internet, there would have been some tiny inkling of evidence to support them by now.

There isn't.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: What exists, from my perspective (includes psychic phenomena- please read!) [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4369971 - 07/04/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Science has failed to recognise the single most potent element of existance.


--------------------


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective [Re: Diploid]
    #4372339 - 07/05/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for that. That's a great point.

If I ever smoke a lot of weed again and what happened starts again, I'll try to see if I can ever prove it.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: What exists, from my perspective (includes psychic phenomena- please read!) [Re: Ego Death]
    #4372342 - 07/05/05 03:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hey no need to be cryptic. You're talking to us, not yourself. (Right?)

what are you referring to?


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Anonymous 8,093 109 02/14/04 01:28 AM
by SpecialEd
* Chakras? Do they exist?
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RoseM 13,256 307 02/04/10 12:57 PM
by Icelander

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