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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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just flesh
    #4363677 - 07/02/05 04:16 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

again and again and again and again people keep saying:
...is just chemistry,...is just neurons etc.

Every day the human brain as a biological machine amazes me, it is the greates of miracles in our known universe. If theory of evolution is correct, these neurons grew out of nothing. Out of dust came such compex organisms that can experience and think and be aware of themselfs

The universe could have bee a great big black nothing, in fact all the laws of probablility would say it is almost impossible that ended up not being one bit black nothing. It gave birth to live, and not just any life, but sentient life.

How can anyone say: just a chemical reaction...

Every chemical reaction in the brain is a miracle.

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles, and are holy, because they are so unique and rare.

Perhapse a bit more appretiation for life as it is would bring additional light in your life


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4363687 - 07/02/05 04:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4363769 - 07/02/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles,
______________________________________________________ :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: just flesh [Re: Icelander]
    #4364206 - 07/02/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ive had these same thoughts, experience itself is mystical.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Deviate]
    #4364223 - 07/02/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

On an infinite timescale anything that could happen, does happen.
That sounded profound, didn't it? I'm not sure if it is accurate or not....

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364236 - 07/02/05 07:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

murphy's law :laugh:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364252 - 07/02/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

On an infinite timescale anything that could happen, does happen.
That sounded profound, didn't it? I'm not sure if it is accurate or not


It's not.

It can be shown that given an infinitely long string of random numbers, not every finite string will occur. This translates into not every possible event will occur even if you wait an infinite time.

This has deep philosophical implications, if you think about it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4364297 - 07/02/05 07:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

How could an infinite amount of random numbers be simulated and tested?

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364400 - 07/02/05 08:26 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleorechron
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364407 - 07/02/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Diploid could you explain how that works please? The only way I can make sense of it is to think of two infinite strings of random digits side by side. String 1 will never contain String 2 and vice-versa.

Does that make any sense?


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4364487 - 07/02/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.




but way is soul and all the stuff "more"?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364531 - 07/02/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Because the concepts like God, soul, karma, etc. are all simpler and more idealistic. In a world where we're watched over by God, we always know that there's a grand scheme and this is all the Great Lord's will. In a world where we have souls, it means there's something ethereal and supernatural about us, which points to, yet again, a grand scheme, a meaning, and an identity.

You have to think about what the purely physical theory you espouse really means. It means that we are simply the sum total of our molecules, and that's all. All we are is a unified group of cells that were created under the guidance of nucleic acids which were developed purely by natural selection. This may be a wonder of nature, but it's no help for peace, love, meaning and guidance, and those four aspects of life are what many humans endure all their troubles for.

Not to mention there's philosophical objections to it also, mostly because of confusion and fear. If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die and nonexperience an eternity of nothingness. That's bound to scare some people.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: orechron]
    #4364553 - 07/02/05 09:28 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Diploid could you explain how that works please?

Well, the proof is in Set Theory and it's a bit complicated, but it's relies on Contor's proof which says this:

In Set Theory, there are sets that contain infinitely many elements, and amazingly, there are even larger sets.

Consider the set of all Real numbers from negative infinity to positive infinity. Some examples of the elements of that set are 6, 7.32, -9.3, 6.3454215664, and so on. That set contains infinitely many elements.

Now consider the set of all Real numbers from 1 to 10, such as 3.4543, 5.9994, and so on. It also contains infinitely many elements just like the first; they both have the same cardinality. This is so even though the first set is bound by infinity at each end while the second set is bound by 1 and 10. It's not intuitive that they both contain exactly the same number of elements (infinitely many) but they do.

In the 1800s, a mathematician named Georg Cantor came up with a way to prove this by finding a way to generally map each element of one set to exactly one element of the other. The method is called Cantor's Diagonal Proof.

Using this proof it's possible to map every element in the set of real numbers to exactly one element in the set of irrational numbers (like Pi) and after this mapping is done, there are irrational numbers left over!

This means that even though the set of Reals is infinitely large, and the set of Irrationals is also infinitely large, the set of Irrationals is larger than the set of Reals!

Now, with this background, you can see, for example, that if you create a machine that spits out one random Real number per second, it will never spit out Pi no matter how long you let the machine run.

A corollary is that no matter how far out you calculate Pi (or any other statistically random string) you will not find every possible finite-length subset in the string.

Hope this makes sense.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364574 - 07/02/05 09:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe because the "Hylics" who make those claims are themselves little more than chemical reactions in their own self-estimations and assume/presume that all people are like themselves. There is a spiritual caste system, but there is also upward mobility for those who choose to identify themselves with more than mere matter. I mean, part of 'me' is turd, but I am not 'just' turd. Some people insist on being turd-makers  :frown: and insist that's all everyone is. I try not to hang with people like that. Howabout you?

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4365156 - 07/03/05 01:04 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know! I'm confused.

It seems a real possibility that our intelligence was created by another form of intelligence. Still, I cannot accept that as truth, simply because I have no better explanation. The idea that this material that is myself has won the toughest lottery ever is just as easily acceptable to me. The universe has been around a while. The improbable is still possible.


--------------------
Namaste

Edited by RedNukleus (07/03/05 01:11 AM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4365459 - 07/03/05 03:09 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the explaination, Diploid.  :thumbup:

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Offlinealsey
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4365689 - 07/03/05 06:49 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
again and again and again and again people keep saying:
...is just chemistry,...is just neurons etc.

Every day the human brain as a biological machine amazes me, it is the greates of miracles in our known universe. If theory of evolution is correct, these neurons grew out of nothing. Out of dust came such compex organisms that can experience and think and be aware of themselfs

The universe could have bee a great big black nothing, in fact all the  laws of probablility would say it is almost impossible that ended up not being one bit black nothing. It gave birth to live, and not just any life, but sentient life.

How can anyone say: just a chemical reaction...

Every chemical reaction in the brain is a miracle.

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles, and are holy, because they are so unique and rare.

Perhapse a bit more appretiation for life as it is would bring additional light in your life




fucking good post  :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4365717 - 07/03/05 07:12 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.




Ravus, I am interested in your ideas on this and have been exploring them for myself for some time now.

So let me ask a personal question. Were does your happiness come from and what makes life meaningful.  What about living is worthwhile for you?  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4365766 - 07/03/05 07:47 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Because the concepts like God, soul, karma, etc. are all simpler and more idealistic. In a world where we're watched over by God, we always know that there's a grand scheme and this is all the Great Lord's will. In a world where we have souls, it means there's something ethereal and supernatural about us, which points to, yet again, a grand scheme, a meaning, and an identity.

You have to think about what the purely physical theory you espouse really means. It means that we are simply the sum total of our molecules, and that's all. All we are is a unified group of cells that were created under the guidance of nucleic acids which were developed purely by natural selection. This may be a wonder of nature, but it's no help for peace, love, meaning and guidance, and those four aspects of life are what many humans endure all their troubles for.

Not to mention there's philosophical objections to it also, mostly because of confusion and fear. If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die and nonexperience an eternity of nothingness. That's bound to scare some people.




actually this kind of existence gives even more reasons to love, have peace and enjoy life


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4365779 - 07/03/05 07:51 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Maybe because the "Hylics" who make those claims are themselves little more than chemical reactions in their own self-estimations and assume/presume that all people are like themselves. There is a spiritual caste system, but there is also upward mobility for those who choose to identify themselves with more than mere matter. I mean, part of 'me' is turd, but I am not 'just' turd. Some people insist on being turd-makers  :frown: and insist that's all everyone is. I try not to hang with people like that. Howabout you?




You didn't understand my point.
I am not complaining how these people think we are only chemicals and neurons. Perhapse we are indeed just that, but it is not "just",
sentient creatures made of chemistry and electricity are even greater miracle then some everlasting spiritual consciousness.

Perhapse we are just flesh, but this flesh is so amazing and complex and holy, that we should celebrate nature and biology instead of saying it's "just" nature, and "just" biology


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4365786 - 07/03/05 07:52 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

by the way, religion does not make anything up, it follows existing texts, which may or may not be made up.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4366075 - 07/03/05 10:17 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

That's debatable; if you endorse something made up and take it as true without questioning the evidence, are you partially responsible for making it up? The texts may already be there, but people have been accepting them without evidence for thousands of years, so it is not fully the faults of the original writers.

Not that the texts themselves are the problem; I'd say the only fault with religious texts is that people take them to be absolute truths instead of an interesting look into the beliefs of a certain time period.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: Icelander]
    #4366085 - 07/03/05 10:22 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So let me ask a personal question. Were does your happiness come from and what makes life meaningful. What about living is worthwhile for you?




The exploration of knowledge and natural curiousity are truely the driving forces behind my development. I feel blessed to know that, in all of recorded history, I'm currently living in the time with the most information easily attained, and I use this as much as I can, researching any subject that even vaguely interests me. Some of the most intense happiness I attain is when I begin to read an article or a book on a subject that I previously had no clue on, like quantum physics; as I absorb the knowledge and realize more about the nature of reality, life gains even more beauty and meaning.

This is the main reason I hope to continue to live also; hopefully, the longer I go on, the more answers science will find. Not to mention I'm intensely curious to what will happen in the future for humanity and the earth, for curiousity and the constant search for knowledge are what has allowed me to live my life up to now.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4366137 - 07/03/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ravus: "If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die and nonexperience an eternity of nothingness. That's bound to scare some people."


OldWoodSpecter: "actually this kind of existence gives even more reasons to love, have peace and enjoy life "

I agree, OWS. It is uncomfortable to think of life on earth as being part of some god's plan, of which I know nothing, and am therefore probably fucking up. Why should I think that way? What reason is there for me to? I am content with being a wonder and a mystery, and make no claims of knowing the reason for or origins of life.


--------------------
Namaste

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4366148 - 07/03/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
by the way, religion does not make anything up, it follows existing texts, which may or may not be made up.




I believe religions do make things up. Any trusted "prophet" could say what he believes and convince thousands that it is "God's will". Take Padre Pio, the Catholic, for instance. He made many claims of speaking to god, probably chopped his own holes in his hands, and it is accepted by the church that he was an honest to goodness saint.


--------------------
Namaste

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4366222 - 07/03/05 11:55 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
In a world where we have souls, it means there's something ethereal and supernatural about us, which points to, yet again, a grand scheme,




Every living thing has a life force or soul.
I don't see how believing in the existence of a soul is supernatural. (I also don't see how a god is needed for the existence of a soul.)

It is completely natural (IMO) for all living things (plants and animals) to have a "life energy/soul".

Quote:

If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die




I agree that we are just a collection of cells working together. The group of cells that was "me" 20 years ago is not the same set of cells that is "me" now.

So why do I have a sense of "me". Why can I still remember things that effected the "me" of 20 years ago.

The soul gives us this sense of self.
It is the only part of us that is eternal.

Where else is this sense of self maintained if there are ONLY cells and chemical reactions?


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4366248 - 07/03/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RedNukleus said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
by the way, religion does not make anything up, it follows existing texts, which may or may not be made up.




I believe religions do make things up. Any trusted "prophet" could say what he believes and convince thousands that it is "God's will". Take Padre Pio, the Catholic, for instance. He made many claims of speaking to god, probably chopped his own holes in his hands, and it is accepted by the church that he was an honest to goodness saint.




when I think of religions I think of their books and just ignore all of people who preach, no reason to preach. I'm simply talking about Bible, Kuran, Veda etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4366275 - 07/03/05 12:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

as the only person in the house
drinking a glass of water
the water swirling down my neck to the nethers and so
I question self altogether.
then launch
myself
to the computer
to see if any
message
arrived confirming my identity.

---------

my hand is now wet 'cause I sneezed.

this is an advanced water cycle.
the whole body is
and mind
is waves.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: niteowl]
    #4366277 - 07/03/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"So why do I have a sense of "me". Why can I still remember things that effected the "me" of 20 years ago.

The soul gives us this sense of self.
It is the only part of us that is eternal.

Where else is this sense of self maintained if there are ONLY cells and chemical reactions? "


Your explanation of soul is in essence no different than a scientist's opinion that the mind is an emergent property of the cells in us working together.

The only place then, which we can disagree, is the matter of the soul being eternal. I have no evidence that this is true, and therefore I cannot believe it is.


--------------------
Namaste

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: just flesh [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4366324 - 07/03/05 12:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

If your cells are in a constant state of change...yet the "you" still remains, from birth to death......that is eternal (as much as a human can experience eternity).

If you live the whole sum of your physical existence and the only thing that remains consistent tru out your life is your soul.....then your soul is (in essence) eternal.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: niteowl]
    #4366362 - 07/03/05 01:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You remain you because of a complex transmission of memory, self and other essential aspects of human survival from one generation of the brain to the next. I don't believe there's any "soul", even from a scientific perspective. The reason you believe you are the self/ ego is because that is programmed into your neural pathways, but if you removed the parts of the brain required for a sense of self and consciousness yet remained hooked up to a machine, you'd continue to live without any "soul" as you call it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinefutant462
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Re: just flesh [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4366366 - 07/03/05 01:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, quite the argument here.  S'pose I'll try and weigh in my thoughts on the matter.  The 'Just X' argument is indeed a tough one, not easily answered or adequetly understood by anyone to be 100% sure (hence the need for debate) but thought itself, or mind, whatever you choose to call it, CAN be thought of from a bottom-up standpoint if you choose to.  If you so choose, you can go from quarks to protons/neutrons/electrons(read: electricity/energy), to molecules, to cells, yada yada all the way up to the whole brain/body/etc.  Now everyone knows this of course, but it isn't actualyl that simple, the important thing to note here, is that as each level increases the functionality of it increases exponentially, as it uses all the rules of the lower level to their fullest extent via a sort of physical darwinism, and the acquires its own set of rules about its own system.  Likewise for the level above that and so forth.  This will yield an exponential growth of the 'possible amount of understanding' for each level.  I'm sure you can all see what I'm getting at here, in addition to that though, there is a sort of outside the box aspect that would have to occur to give rise to something analgous to quality human thought(I still hold the belief that stupid people are not much more 'intelligent' than a good AI program) or pattern recognition.  This would have to be something outside the 'program' that leads to human thoughts (atoms, molecules etc.) in which patterns about the program itself can be analyzed on a level outside of the system itself.  This information would have to then be re-inserted into the system, and have the system be able to comprehend it, even though it is about itself.  I believe the term for this is 'self-referencing' in computer science, though I could be wrong, anyways, studies show that systems that have managed to incorporate a certain amount of this self-referencing logic pattern have better 'reasoning' abilities than the brute force computational methods that are used in many chess programs where the computer merely calculates millions of possibilities and chooses the one with a greater probability of success.  Now all that is simply using the standard model of particle physics, which would indicate there would have to be some mystical intervention perhaps in order to arrive at human thought, however there are other theories such as string theory and holographic theories of the universe which could indeed acount and allow, or rather demand, that such processes take place.

As for the point that the viewpoint of this determinstic approach to the world doesn't allow for the same meaning or value to life as do those which speak of everything being souls or God, I think that it is important that even from that standpoint you analyze things from the viewpoint of a scientific/meaninglessness point of view, simply for the sake that it is concrete and definite, and if we still after much research cannot arrive at an answer using these concrete and definite principles that we have developed then our answer is that without some sort of divine intervention it would be impossible to have this existence in which we currently reside.

sorry for the long post, hope it sparks the fires a bit though :wink:


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"no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power.?
-P.J. O'Rourke

What is a Quantum Particle?
The Dreams that stuff is made of!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4366760 - 07/03/05 03:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

So let me ask a personal question. Were does your happiness come from and what makes life meaningful. What about living is worthwhile for you?




The exploration of knowledge and natural curiousity are truely the driving forces behind my development. I feel blessed to know that, in all of recorded history, I'm currently living in the time with the most information easily attained, and I use this as much as I can, researching any subject that even vaguely interests me. Some of the most intense happiness I attain is when I begin to read an article or a book on a subject that I previously had no clue on, like quantum physics; as I absorb the knowledge and realize more about the nature of reality, life gains even more beauty and meaning.

This is the main reason I hope to continue to live also; hopefully, the longer I go on, the more answers science will find. Not to mention I'm intensely curious to what will happen in the future for humanity and the earth, for curiousity and the constant search for knowledge are what has allowed me to live my life up to now.





This is good! And though we may or may not come to a different conclusion. I follow the same path. :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4369064 - 07/04/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

This is the main reason I hope to continue to live

You've stated that you believe when you die, you will cease to exist in totality; you will then non-experience an eternity of non-existence.

Given this belief, it seems futile and pointless to even have curiosity, let alone continue to live when in the end all you are will vanish.

Why do you bother with curiosity or to continue to live?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: niteowl]
    #4369078 - 07/04/05 10:07 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Every living thing has a life force or soul.

Every time I see the word 'soul', I'm frustrated by all the different definitions for that word.

How do you see the soul? Do you see it as the a transitory personality or as an incorporeal quality added to a lump of flesh that will survive and continue to think after the flesh dies?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4369129 - 07/04/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

soul or spirit is the smear that streaks accross the brain enduring briefly, it's shape and touch ever changing but, in linking several moments of being, and smoothing them into a semblence of something more, it undeniably is something - a thing which eludes description.

soul or spirit emanates from our minds, it influences everything, and makes everything better.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4369171 - 07/04/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, but the thrust of my question is: do you believe it survives the death of the body?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4369227 - 07/04/05 11:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

what was before continues after
the difficulty comes in determining where the separation is.
perhaps no-separation means don't look for the separateness.

this individual smearing thing may not be that important to what continues from before and again after, though the work it does in making things better may make a difference.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4369231 - 07/04/05 11:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Yeah, but the thrust of my question is: do you believe it survives the death of the body?




I don't know.

Is there life after death?

This is the question man has been asking himself since the dawn of time.
I tend to believe that there is some form of existence after physical death.
I have seen too many things to support this view.
None of it can be proved to another person because they haven't experience the things I have.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4369256 - 07/04/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
The reason you believe you are the self/ ego is because that is programmed into your neural pathways, but if you removed the parts of the brain required for a sense of self and consciousness yet remained hooked up to a machine, you'd continue to live without any "soul" as you call it.





Your soul would still be there.
You just damaged the part of the brain that allows the soul to communicate thru the brain.
As long as your alive, you have a soul(life energy).
The ego is not the soul.
The soul is "you" with out an ego.


Even plants have a soul (minus the ego).

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: just flesh [Re: niteowl]
    #4369309 - 07/04/05 11:47 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

as if the ego were the stored history and programmed reaction contexts and the soul were the changing smear of energy/vitas we consider as life.
the stored part is more mechanical and instrumental, much less alive than the smear.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4369339 - 07/04/05 11:55 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What if our soul doesn't emanate from our mind, because it only uses our minds as a tool for a physical being ? A famous quote from some mind-researcher: "Our soul plays on the mind, like a pianist on his piano"
Of course that leads to the (until now) unprovable question: What was first ? Soul or matter ?
Most of us have decided for themselves...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4372424 - 07/05/05 01:59 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

This is a great conversation among all of us.

To reply to the last few questions:

I- don't even begin to have the slightest understanding of consciousness! We are molecules, right? Billions of them react and move about faster than we can think, and some of these molecules form a central core of our being. Then all the signal makers that we have strung and wound all throughout us send their information to this core - I picture it like a big screen - and the screen lights up.

But then, something even more amazing happens. The core of us, which takes in all this information and lights up with it, is able to determine what is what, and this part of us recognises that lots of signals are different from other signals. The patterns are recorded, so that later in time, subsequent signals can be compared to previously received signals.

Sometimes it is so astounding that I start to wonder if we could have possibly evolved naturally. Then, when I write the steps that I can think of out like I just did, I can make the connection between evolution such as that of eyeballs and noses, and that of a thinking brain. The functions of the brain are for definite purposes, and there is no clear reason to conclude that divine intervention is responsible for their existence.

I don't think the effects of psychedelic drugs indicate that there is a god or soul either. You can gut a house, throw a bunch of monkeys in there, and call it a zoo. Doesn't mean it was intended to be a zoo.


--------------------
Namaste

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4372546 - 07/05/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This is the main reason I hope to continue to live

You've stated that you believe when you die, you will cease to exist in totality; you will then non-experience an eternity of non-existence.

Given this belief, it seems futile and pointless to even have curiosity, let alone continue to live when in the end all you are will vanish.

Why do you bother with curiosity or to continue to live?




I would never claim that when humans die they cease to exist in totality... but as far as I can tell, this seems entirely probable. If this is true then life would be pointless, but how could we ever confirm or deny that statement? I try to ignore my eventual demise and concentrate on the wonders around me. There are an endless amount of things to be explored and discovered. Even if life turns out to be a meaningless ride, it can still be enjoyed.

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