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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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just flesh
    #4363677 - 07/02/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

again and again and again and again people keep saying:
...is just chemistry,...is just neurons etc.

Every day the human brain as a biological machine amazes me, it is the greates of miracles in our known universe. If theory of evolution is correct, these neurons grew out of nothing. Out of dust came such compex organisms that can experience and think and be aware of themselfs

The universe could have bee a great big black nothing, in fact all the laws of probablility would say it is almost impossible that ended up not being one bit black nothing. It gave birth to live, and not just any life, but sentient life.

How can anyone say: just a chemical reaction...

Every chemical reaction in the brain is a miracle.

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles, and are holy, because they are so unique and rare.

Perhapse a bit more appretiation for life as it is would bring additional light in your life


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4363687 - 07/02/05 06:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4363769 - 07/02/05 06:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles,
______________________________________________________ :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: just flesh [Re: Icelander]
    #4364206 - 07/02/05 09:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ive had these same thoughts, experience itself is mystical.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Deviate]
    #4364223 - 07/02/05 09:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

On an infinite timescale anything that could happen, does happen.
That sounded profound, didn't it? I'm not sure if it is accurate or not....


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364236 - 07/02/05 09:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

murphy's law :laugh:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364252 - 07/02/05 09:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

On an infinite timescale anything that could happen, does happen.
That sounded profound, didn't it? I'm not sure if it is accurate or not


It's not.

It can be shown that given an infinitely long string of random numbers, not every finite string will occur. This translates into not every possible event will occur even if you wait an infinite time.

This has deep philosophical implications, if you think about it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4364297 - 07/02/05 09:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

How could an infinite amount of random numbers be simulated and tested?


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364400 - 07/02/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: just flesh [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4364407 - 07/02/05 10:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Diploid could you explain how that works please? The only way I can make sense of it is to think of two infinite strings of random digits side by side. String 1 will never contain String 2 and vice-versa.

Does that make any sense?


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4364487 - 07/02/05 11:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.




but way is soul and all the stuff "more"?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364531 - 07/02/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Because the concepts like God, soul, karma, etc. are all simpler and more idealistic. In a world where we're watched over by God, we always know that there's a grand scheme and this is all the Great Lord's will. In a world where we have souls, it means there's something ethereal and supernatural about us, which points to, yet again, a grand scheme, a meaning, and an identity.

You have to think about what the purely physical theory you espouse really means. It means that we are simply the sum total of our molecules, and that's all. All we are is a unified group of cells that were created under the guidance of nucleic acids which were developed purely by natural selection. This may be a wonder of nature, but it's no help for peace, love, meaning and guidance, and those four aspects of life are what many humans endure all their troubles for.

Not to mention there's philosophical objections to it also, mostly because of confusion and fear. If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die and nonexperience an eternity of nothingness. That's bound to scare some people.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: just flesh [Re: orechron]
    #4364553 - 07/02/05 11:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Diploid could you explain how that works please?

Well, the proof is in Set Theory and it's a bit complicated, but it's relies on Contor's proof which says this:

In Set Theory, there are sets that contain infinitely many elements, and amazingly, there are even larger sets.

Consider the set of all Real numbers from negative infinity to positive infinity. Some examples of the elements of that set are 6, 7.32, -9.3, 6.3454215664, and so on. That set contains infinitely many elements.

Now consider the set of all Real numbers from 1 to 10, such as 3.4543, 5.9994, and so on. It also contains infinitely many elements just like the first; they both have the same cardinality. This is so even though the first set is bound by infinity at each end while the second set is bound by 1 and 10. It's not intuitive that they both contain exactly the same number of elements (infinitely many) but they do.

In the 1800s, a mathematician named Georg Cantor came up with a way to prove this by finding a way to generally map each element of one set to exactly one element of the other. The method is called Cantor's Diagonal Proof.

Using this proof it's possible to map every element in the set of real numbers to exactly one element in the set of irrational numbers (like Pi) and after this mapping is done, there are irrational numbers left over!

This means that even though the set of Reals is infinitely large, and the set of Irrationals is also infinitely large, the set of Irrationals is larger than the set of Reals!

Now, with this background, you can see, for example, that if you create a machine that spits out one random Real number per second, it will never spit out Pi no matter how long you let the machine run.

A corollary is that no matter how far out you calculate Pi (or any other statistically random string) you will not find every possible finite-length subset in the string.

Hope this makes sense.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4364574 - 07/02/05 11:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe because the "Hylics" who make those claims are themselves little more than chemical reactions in their own self-estimations and assume/presume that all people are like themselves. There is a spiritual caste system, but there is also upward mobility for those who choose to identify themselves with more than mere matter. I mean, part of 'me' is turd, but I am not 'just' turd. Some people insist on being turd-makers  :frown: and insist that's all everyone is. I try not to hang with people like that. Howabout you?


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: just flesh [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4365156 - 07/03/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know! I'm confused.

It seems a real possibility that our intelligence was created by another form of intelligence. Still, I cannot accept that as truth, simply because I have no better explanation. The idea that this material that is myself has won the toughest lottery ever is just as easily acceptable to me. The universe has been around a while. The improbable is still possible.


Edited by RedNukleus (07/03/05 03:11 AM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: just flesh [Re: Diploid]
    #4365459 - 07/03/05 05:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the explaination, Diploid.  :thumbup:


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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Offlinealsey
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Re: just flesh [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4365689 - 07/03/05 08:49 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
again and again and again and again people keep saying:
...is just chemistry,...is just neurons etc.

Every day the human brain as a biological machine amazes me, it is the greates of miracles in our known universe. If theory of evolution is correct, these neurons grew out of nothing. Out of dust came such compex organisms that can experience and think and be aware of themselfs

The universe could have bee a great big black nothing, in fact all the  laws of probablility would say it is almost impossible that ended up not being one bit black nothing. It gave birth to live, and not just any life, but sentient life.

How can anyone say: just a chemical reaction...

Every chemical reaction in the brain is a miracle.

What do you want? mystical fields of energy, or what?? How would that give additional meaning to our life? How would ghosts, and unknown forces make life more miracle than it is?

Love, happyness, curriosity, knowledge, will....all these exist in our brain as neurons electricity and chemistry, and are true miracles, and are holy, because they are so unique and rare.

Perhapse a bit more appretiation for life as it is would bring additional light in your life




fucking good post  :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4365717 - 07/03/05 09:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
People say, "just chemistry" and "just neurons" because they're insinuating that it's "just neurons as opposed to the soul" or what have you. In no way do the simple semantics take away from the wonders of natural selection and evolution.

I agree though, people always look to more, even making up fantasies and delusions like religion does, simply to try to make life feel more significant. These are the people that usually cannot find happiness in everyday reality and life, so they continue searching right out of logic and reason, when the wonders are right here in our "normal", scientific reality.




Ravus, I am interested in your ideas on this and have been exploring them for myself for some time now.

So let me ask a personal question. Were does your happiness come from and what makes life meaningful.  What about living is worthwhile for you?  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: Ravus]
    #4365766 - 07/03/05 09:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Because the concepts like God, soul, karma, etc. are all simpler and more idealistic. In a world where we're watched over by God, we always know that there's a grand scheme and this is all the Great Lord's will. In a world where we have souls, it means there's something ethereal and supernatural about us, which points to, yet again, a grand scheme, a meaning, and an identity.

You have to think about what the purely physical theory you espouse really means. It means that we are simply the sum total of our molecules, and that's all. All we are is a unified group of cells that were created under the guidance of nucleic acids which were developed purely by natural selection. This may be a wonder of nature, but it's no help for peace, love, meaning and guidance, and those four aspects of life are what many humans endure all their troubles for.

Not to mention there's philosophical objections to it also, mostly because of confusion and fear. If all we are is the cells we are composed of, then that means we are not the same person today that we were when we born. We're just cells multiplying and dying, continuing on the previous cells in a chaotic, unguided world where we will die and nonexperience an eternity of nothingness. That's bound to scare some people.




actually this kind of existence gives even more reasons to love, have peace and enjoy life


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: just flesh [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4365779 - 07/03/05 09:51 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Maybe because the "Hylics" who make those claims are themselves little more than chemical reactions in their own self-estimations and assume/presume that all people are like themselves. There is a spiritual caste system, but there is also upward mobility for those who choose to identify themselves with more than mere matter. I mean, part of 'me' is turd, but I am not 'just' turd. Some people insist on being turd-makers  :frown: and insist that's all everyone is. I try not to hang with people like that. Howabout you?




You didn't understand my point.
I am not complaining how these people think we are only chemicals and neurons. Perhapse we are indeed just that, but it is not "just",
sentient creatures made of chemistry and electricity are even greater miracle then some everlasting spiritual consciousness.

Perhapse we are just flesh, but this flesh is so amazing and complex and holy, that we should celebrate nature and biology instead of saying it's "just" nature, and "just" biology


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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