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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4366140 - 07/03/05 10:45 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

As a Canadian citizen who chose to leave Canada after being born and raised there and living and working there for three and a half decades, I could probably give you a few reasons why Americans would have something negative to say about Canada.

-- They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan.

-- The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades.

-- the level of taxation is confiscatory.

-- Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed.

-- The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US.

-- Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this doesn't apply to every single Canadian) have grown so accustomed to seeing Government as the answer to all of life's problems that they expect to be cosseted and supported from cradle to grave with the minimum of effort on their part. They expect to be protected even from those things they deem "offensive".

-- The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades.

That'll do for starters.

As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: RiverMan]
    #4370424 - 07/04/05 09:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. "

Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are.




The solution is to break the stranglehold the Canadian government has on it, duh! If people want to pay for it out of their own pockets (or have their insurance company pay for it), let them!

As it happens, every time I've been to a hospital I got treated, too. I did however have to wait for three and a half months to get a CAT scan to be sure I didn't have a brain tumor. And I never did get the followup MRI scan. I decided not to wait the year and a bit my neurologist told me it would take to schedule it. Good thing it turned out not to be a tumor, huh?

My mother's neighbor waited over fourteen months for her first knee replacement. She's in the hospital recovering from her second knee replacement as I type this. Waiting time for the second one? Two years, three weeks. And her case is not unusual, it's the norm. Here's just one of a hundred links I could provide to similar data:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/21/101350.shtml

I've posted in this forum at least a half a dozen times giving more details. Look them up if you feel like it.

Quote:

Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income.




Yet another reason I could have listed but chose not to. Since you brought it up I'll address it.

Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch. They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything. They've certainly succeeded with the health "care" system.

Quote:

This is simply how NOT to build a society.




It certainly isn't the way to build a Socialist Nanny State society, I'll give you that.

Quote:

(by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world.




I guarantee you I know more about Cuba's health care woes than you do, seeing as how I live right next door to Cuba, have Cuban expatriates as personal friends, have had long discussions with many people living here (Dominican Republic) who spend considerable time in Cuba every year, and I have read widely on the subject to boot.

Cuba's medical situation is a freaking nightmare. It's worse than Canada's. At least in Canada the facilities are actually stocked; the problem in Canada is the interminable wait. Once you are finally scheduled to be looked after in Canada the operating rooms have the drugs and machines and staff do actually do something. This is far from the case in Cuba. They have almost no equipment, almost no drugs, and often not even enough pine-sol to keep the place clean.

Here's just one link to open your eyes. If you are truly interested in learning more about it, do a bit of digging. It's all out there for anyone who isn't Noam Chomsky to see: http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html

So sorry, but if you think Cuba's health care system "should serve as an example for the world" there's no point taking this further till you educate yourself on just how abominable it really is.

Quote:

Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...




"Embargo"? Cuba can (and does) trade with every Western nation except the USA. Canada, for example, trades extensively with Cuba. Of course, Canada isn't the place to go looking for help with anything medical, but that leaves every country in Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America free to take up the slack.

Quote:

"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades."

I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)




Jesus Christ on a crutch! You claim you're a Quebecer? It would take pages to list all the scandals of the Chretien government, let alone the Quebec provincial government.

"Ethical transparency"? Bwahahaha! Yeah... all these latest revelations are hitting the sunlight because of "transparency" all right.

The Liberal government has been scandal-ridden since before I left Canada over seventeen years ago. And even though I'm now a resident of the Dominican Republic, I still spend an average of six to eight weeks a year in Canada visiting friends and family. When I'm there I read Canadian papers and watch Canadian news programs.

Quote:

"The level of taxation is confiscatory."

Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.




So you concede my point.

Quote:

"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed."

I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.




Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose.

Quote:

" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. "

I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...




No, it comes from running a business in Canada (not my own... I was district sales manager for a large computer reseller right before I left Canada) and talking with dozens of others who try to run their own. It's clear you yourself have no experience running a business in Canada.

Quote:

"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades."

Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...




It's a joke from the perspective of Canadian military men and women as well. My father was in the Canadian military all his life and I grew up on a succession of Canadian military bases. I have friends from childhood who are currently in the military. Canada has fifty year old helicopters crashing on a regular basis (in the few hours each month they have been patched up enough to fly at all) and the Canadian troops in Afghanistan were sent there with no boots.

Quote:

"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty."

As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so.




There were no Canadians in the Gulf War of 1991? You might want to check your facts, dude. There are no Canadians in Afghanistan? Repeat after me... "Google is my friend".

Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4370917 - 07/05/05 12:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

ToiletDuk writes:

Quote:

And let us not forget how Canadians fought so valiantly along side the US in WWII (and other major conflicts as well). They were a major military presence in all the major campaigns with the US against the Germans, including the D-Day invasion....




Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4370966 - 07/05/05 12:44 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Canadas public health-care system is still very young, of course it will be shaky to start.




Four decades is "young"? If you say so, Gramps.

Quote:

Taxation is a necessary part of a socialist system. By its very nature, there is more government to pay for, which is what canadians have chosen.




Yet another reason to denigrate Canada (and by extension, Canadians). Canada is (with the exception of Cuba) the most Socialist-oriented country in the Western hemisphere since the Sandinistas were voted out of power. Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it.

Quote:

The scandals the canadian government has undertaken are generally speaking less reprehensible and less dramatic than our neighbours. IMO.




In the sense that it's only Canadians getting screwed, perhaps. What I find reprehensible is that Canadians would prefer to re-elect and re-elect a party known by all to be corrupt to its core rather than risk having to actually do something for themselves. Give up a shred of Nanny State cradle-to-grave mollycoddling -- which they don't even get anyway (see Canadian Medicare)? Perish the thought!

Quote:

If you see how canadians responded in world war I and world war II, you would see an important aspect of canadas military is to defend itself from imminent and legitimate threats.




Defend itself? Get real. Hitler posed no threat whatsoever to Canada, either imminent or legitimate, nor did the Kaiser. But Canadian bomber pilots incinerated thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of defenseless German civilians.

Quote:

Unfortunately, an un-moderated capitalist system leaves people behind, and takes away oppurtunity for those who are not already rich. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.




That myth is a topic for a different thread (although there are only about a hundred and eighty such threads scattered through the archives of this forum already), but any perceived evils of Capitalism are certainly no danger to Canadians.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4372421 - 07/05/05 01:58 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Niteowl writes:

Quote:

If you don't like their government don't live there.




I don't like their government, so I no longer live there. I've lived outside Canada for the last third of my life.

Quote:

Bashing their government only makes you look childish and immature.




LOL! But bashing the US government is a sign of maturity and superior intelligence. Uh huh.

I have more right to bash the government of Canada than any Canadian poster I have yet met in this forum by the simple fact that I lived longer in Canada than any of them have so far. I can guarantee you I had more money seized from me by the Canadian government than any two of them (perhaps three) put together.

It never ceases to amuse me watching people who have never lived in the US (Canadians and Europeans) bashing it mindlessly while getting their facts wrong. And how odd that the American posters here who choose to bash their government are never told they are being childish and immature. Yet someone who was born and raised and educated and worked in Canada for three and a half decades, who has lived in seven out of the ten provinces (and spent at least some time in the other three) and all three northern territories, who has worked at everything from setting pins in a bowling alley to selling clothes and cars and stereo and computers to assembling electronics to sorting mail by hand (and served as a union steward to boot) in Canada is told he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Every point I made about Canada is true. When the Canadian posters in this forum eventually get jobs they'll change their tunes about how wonderful it is. Or when they spend more than a year on crutches waiting for arthroscopic surgery, whichever comes first.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
    #4372433 - 07/05/05 02:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

So let's review. In my opening post I said that:

-- Canada's single-tier health "care" system is fucked. No one has shown otherwise.

-- The ruling Liberal Party is corrupt and has been for decades. No one has disputed this.

-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave.

-- Government regulations hinder business owners to a much greater degree than in the US. No one disputes this either (probably because no one who responded knows anything about business)

-- Canadians are addicted to their Nanny State. Yet again, no one disputes this.

-- Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades. Surprise surprise, no one disputes this either, just says it doesn't bother them.

Looks like my work here is done.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4372503 - 07/05/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it.




Perhaps you overlooked this statement of mine in the post to which you were replying:

"-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave."



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373038 - 07/05/05 05:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Actually I hadn't even seen that post when I wrote my last, which is why the quote I replied to wasn't in the post you just quoted




You reply to posts you haven't yet read? That explains a lot.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: trendal]
    #4373431 - 07/05/05 07:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sigh.

Trendal, the post in which you stated:

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't mind paying taxes for what I get. Perhaps you overlooked that statement the other times I've said it.




is post #4372477. It was posted at 4:28 pm Eastern Time today. If you go to the title bar of that post, It reads "Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]"

The "[Re: Phred]" part in the post header lets the reader know which post you were replying to. When a reader clicks on the underlined "Phred" in the "[Re: Phred}" part of the header, it brings up the post you were replying to -- my post #4372433, posted at 4:06 pm Eastern Time today, in which I had stated:

Quote:

-- The level of taxation is confiscatory. Again, no one disputes this, they just say they love high taxes and suggest those who don't should leave.




Now, maybe you thought you were replying to an earlier post. But you weren't. Try it yourself and see. Hell, try it on THIS post too so you can see how it works. Click on the underlined "trendal" in the "[Re: trendal]" part of this post header. It will bring up your post to which I am replying. It works every time, and has to the best of my knowledge always worked this way.


Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: BCBudJohn]
    #4373555 - 07/05/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

BCBudJohn writes:

Quote:

Simply spinning those reasons with clever words like confiscatory, saying health-care is fucked (which it isn't, its simply to your disadvantage, it seems to keep the rest of the population happy), and that we're "addicted to a nanny-state," when in fact the ideal is universal care and certainly holds merit, whether you believe it is or not, the UN and much of the world recognises it is.




Well... that's an incomplete sentence, but I think I catch your drift.

a) There's nothing "clever" about words like confiscatory. When you pay more in taxes than you get to keep, that is by any reasonable person's definition confiscatory.

b) Any health "care" system in which people regularly die while waiting for rationed treatment, where people wait years to sign on with a new general practitioner, wait months for appointments with specialists, more months for necessary tests, more months for the results of those tests, then over a year for the necessary surgery, is fucked no matter how much you protest otherwise.

Further, none of this is news -- the government's "solution" to the problem is to run (every five years or so) yet another commission to study the problem. Every single one of those commissions has found the same problems I just described. Hell, where do you think I freaking get my figures from???? From the bloody studies, duh!

c) it is not just to my disadvantage. I don't exaggerate when I say people die (or if lucky just hobble around for years in pain on crutches or wheelchairs) due to the fucked Canadian health "care" system. It's well-documented fact. I would say those people are more disadvantaged than I was. And I doubt very much they consider themselves part of "the rest of the population" who is "happy", but hey... they're Canadian after all. Maybe they are happy watching their parents die while waiting months for an ECG. At least they get the pleasure of knowing they didn't butt in line or anything. I'm probably being arrogant and biased and stuff by presuming they weren't happy. Or maybe I don't understand "the Canadian mood".

d) even though the ideal of "universal" care could be argued by some to hold merit, Canada's system doesn't even provide that care. That's my freaking point fa cryin' out loud. As one of the Supreme Court justices in the recent landmark Quebec medicare decision stated, "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care".

Look, it's no coincidence that only three countries on the whole planet have single tier socialized medicine -- because it doesn't freaking work, duh! Does England have single tier socialized medicine? Nope. Spain? Nope. Germany? Sweden? Japan? Switzerland? France? Australia? Nope. They all allow their citizens to supplement the state-run system with private insurance. Did you ever stop to wonder why that might be? Only Cuba, North Korea, and Canada are stupid enough to stubbornly cling to a thoroughly-discredited health care model.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Single-tier socialized medicine by its very nature cannot be anything other than fucked. The entire rest of the planet recognizes this. Even the freaking UN.

Quote:

Simply shows bias and an unwillingness to engage in an open debate.




Projection.

What you are saying is that since after reading your "rebuttals" (and as I point out none of the statements I made in my first post have been rebutted) my opinion remains the same, I am "biased".

What is this crap about "open debate"? What have you "debated"? You (or others) have presented no alternatives, no reasoned argument to make me reconsider my positions. All you (or others in this thread) have done is to say that you don't mind having over half your money seized, that you don't mind waiting a year or more for surgery, that Canada used to have a non-joke army on D-Day, that there are scandals in other governments, and that you think Socialism is great and Capitalism sucks.

Give me a convincing argument that any of my points in my first post in this thread is incorrect and I'll alter my position. It won't be the first time in my life I reversed a previously-held stance. But for Christ's sake, give me something with some substance -- not this lame "it could be worse" crap.

Quote:

Experience is one thing, having the single best canadian opinion, although quite an achievement (good for you!), you've simply disregarded all debate that has happened in favour of your expert opinions which together show that you can effectively spin words without giving a fair balance of knowledge, and without addressing the canadian mood.




Okay... so since I have lived longer in Canada than anyone else participating in this thread, had more money seized from me than anyone else, held a critical , demanding, and responsible management position in a very large Canadian business, am articulate, am well-informed on the subject matter under discussion, present my points logically and with supporting sources, I am "spinning words"? I am "biased" and "unwilling to engage in open debate"?

What grinds your gears, John, is that you haven't the ability to refute anything I've said. You have made up your mind -- on no foundation other than that you "feel" I must be wrong because everything I have presented goes against your comfortable preconceptions -- that I am wrong and you are right. I ask again -- have you or anyone else here shown any of my assertions to be faulty? Nope. Yet *I* am the one to be chastised for not caving to your position?

Whatever, dude.



Phred


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Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: niteowl]
    #4375306 - 07/06/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Niteowl writes:

Quote:

What people are tired of hearing is, you and lonestar, pissing and moaning about Canada.




If you didn't want to hear why lonestar has the urge to post articles such as the one he did, why did you ask him?

Of course, if the article was about America... hey, no problem! Piss and moan all you want. Over and over and over again. Because of course America is different. We never get tired of pissing and moaning about America. Besides, pissing and moaning about America can be a group activity. Everyone can play.

Quote:

We get, that you don't like the Canadian government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.
Problem solved.

I personally could care less about how the Americans govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.





We get, that you don't like the American government.
Good for you.
You have the option of NOT living there.
Problem solved.

I personally could care less about how the Americans govern themselves.
It makes NO difference in how I live my life.

Quote:

If the Canadians are paying high taxes, that they voted for.......why are you bitching.




You asked why lonestar had negative stuff to say about Canada. I gave some reasons why people have negative things to say about Canada. I also showed as false your claim that Canadians had taken the idea of freedom and liberty for all and done a much better job of implementing than had America.

It's not that I'm "bitching", it's that I'm debunking your false claim. That's how it works here in this forum... someone makes a bogus claim, he gets called on it. You've been here long enough to know that.

Quote:

If you truly want to change the Canadian government.
Move back to Canada and start your own Capitalistic campaign.




But I don't want to change it. It can't be changed because too many Canadians are complacent and perfectly content with their lack of freedom and liberty. As you can see from reviewing the comments of our Canadian contributors, they value the illusion of security and their ideal of forced 'equality" more than they value their personal freedom. I, on the other hand, value my freedom more than I value overpriced pre-paid third-rate health "care" and spending a quarter of my working life filling in pettifogging "diversity compliance" forms for the government.

So I left. And I never regretted it.

Quote:

To constantly piss and moan about a government that your no longer part of......
makes you look immature......not intelligent.




And that makes the Canadians and Euros in this forum who bitch about America look mature and intelligent? The difference between them and me is that I know what I'm discussing. They don't.

Are you an American? Do you bitch about America? Why don't you leave it and live somewhere else?

Quote:

Its starting to sound like, you liked living in Canada but didnt like having to pay the high taxes.




I enjoyed some things about living in Canada, yes. But I didn't leave it just because the taxes were confiscatory -- the absurd tax rate is just a symptom of the disease -- I left because I dislike Canada's indifference (and in many cases active hostility) to liberty.

If I had stayed in Canada I would be financially independent by now. I'd be retired with a nice house and a damn good chunk of change invested. Yes, even with the confiscatory taxes I could have amassed a million bucks or so in the last seventeen and a half years, and that's enough to retire on.

Instead I came to a third-world country and ran a break-even windsurfing business, then worked six years as a bartender/ bar manager for anywhere between six hundred and twelve hundred bucks a month. I have nowhere near a million bucks and I'm not in a position to retire.

I know it's hard for many to understand, but there are people in this world who act out of principle.



Phred


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