|
RiverMan
experiencednewbie

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 105
Last seen: 15 years, 19 days
|
Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: lonestar2004]
#4360067 - 07/01/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
As a Canadian, I don't quite identify myself or my country in this article. As others have just said, why should we need a "bigger vision" or a specific role to achieve in 15 years? What would be the purpose of such a thing if we just want to progress as a society as we have done in the past?
And if the words role/vision mean invade another country, then I want no part of it!
-------------------- A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?
|
RiverMan
experiencednewbie

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 105
Last seen: 15 years, 19 days
|
Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Phred]
#4369731 - 07/04/05 03:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Well Phred, I have to disagree with most of the "points" (I'd call them interpretations of the facts you hold) you just made :
"They are the only country in the world other than North Korea and Cuba with a single tier socialized medicine program. To make things worse, the system is so hopelessly broken that Canadians die on a regular basis waiting for treatment they could receive in a matter of days in the US. There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in all of Canada. That's why it's not uncommon to wait six months or more for an MRI scan. " Well, you may have a point there, as I agree our healthcare system has its faults (lots of them actually lol...but I wouldn't call it "hopelessly broken", I've been to hospitals and I got treated EVERY time! Yes!) But it simply makes me sick that while people here are looking for solutions to improve healthcare for all Canadians others brag about how weel funded U.S. hospitals are. Well, Phred, the answer is simple for Canadians : we wouldn't like to live in a country knowing some people have more rights to a better treatment (and ultimately life) than others and that this right is proportional to your income. This is simply how NOT to build a society. (by the way I would suggest you to read more about Cuba's healthcare system as I believe it should serve as an example for the world. Just try to see how they do it, even with an embargo going on for 40 years...)
"The Liberal federal government is hopelessly corrupt and has been for decades." I'd immediately ask for facts and proofs of such a hopelessly corrupt system, but hey, probably the only news of Canada you recieve is about the sponsorship program, so I won't bother mentionning the ethical transparency our government (especially Quebec) has shown over the years. (what's that? no independent 9/11 commission for you in the U.S.? Wow...I'd be really pissed!)
"The level of taxation is confiscatory." Well, I must guess this is the main reason why you moved down South, but now that you're gone don't complain about the democratic choices our country has made election over election in recent years. You don't have anything to say about it anymore and if people find the taxation level so "confiscatory" they should also be moving away... they are free to do so.
"Quebec holds the rest of the country hostage while billions of dollars are pissed away on bilingual initiatives that don't work and aren't needed." I could get in quite an argument with you over this (as i live in Quebec and am French-speaking) but I must agree the province of Quebec shouldn't be allowed more money than other provinces inside the federation. Unfortunately, the problem goes much deeper than money and your statement clearly demonstrates you do not quite know the situation here. We'll talk about it once you go shopping at the local mall and a salesman/saleswoman refuses to speak to you in the official language... Otherwise just keep on reading about Quebec's history in the past 250 years.
" The mountain of government regulations (not even mentioning the level of taxation now -- although that too is an enormous barrier -- just speaking of petty and absurd regulations) makes it twice (perhaps more) as hard to run a business than in the US. " I guess your conclusion that a business here is twice as hard (...or perhaps more!!! MY GOD!) to run as in the U.S is the result of a very scientific process which calculates the average daily amout of calories a CEO has to ingest in order not to file bankrupcy...
"The Canadian military is a joke and has been for decades." Well, I agree that it's kind of a joke from a U.S. perspective but I would ask you to tell me why we should need better military protection ? As opposed to the U.S., we just haven't deemed necessary, in our own interest, to install dictatorships and support right-wing extremist states all over the world this past century...
"As for "freedom and liberty for all", only someone who has never lived in Canada could claim Canada has done a much better job of implementing it than the US. Or someone who has no grasp of the meaning of either freedom or liberty." As for your beautiful and thoughtful conclusion, I should add that freedom must have many different interpretations because I don't think Canada has ever invaded another country for trivial reasons (aka OIL, most recently) and killed innocent bystanders while doing so. I my book, if you wanna live freedom and liberty, not just for yourself but for all, you gotta NOT kill people while doing so.
Here's the other side of it.
-------------------- A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?
|
RiverMan
experiencednewbie

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 105
Last seen: 15 years, 19 days
|
Re: 2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? [Re: Gijith]
#4371752 - 07/05/05 09:37 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I just don't see why people (usually Americans, probably because they are more in number on these boards, I guess) simply go ahead and bash any socialist state, turning every single point we make to justify ourselves to ridicule. And I thought McCarthism was gone for good! I guess not everyone is open-minded enough to simply try and understand the basic principles of socialism, or communism for that matter. Heck, its not because certain POLITICAL doctrines have been turned to bloodshed in the past that they were meant so. If so, then capitalism would be amongst the most gruesome political doctrines still in place today.
As I see it, the people who machinely bash socialism/communism people are cold-hearted capitalists who don't give a shit about others and will only think of others when it becomes profitable in terms of money.
This may only be my opinion, but the fact of the matter is you can continue to ridicule us all you want, we've succeederd in building a better society for all Canadians over the years once we made the decision to run a social democracy. All the comparisons you make with the US about healthcare, businesses, taxation, etc. are only those you know of. They are what you see in your little upper-class world. Just venture in the lower corners of America and then come and tell me you've achieved what you speak of for ALL americans, that you've not left behind anyone. You'll then perhaps aknowledge America works in 2 different worlds : the world in which people get what they need because they can afford it and the others who have to struggle everyday to meet their basic needs.
In the minds of Canadians, this is what differentiates us from you. And if America is such a perfect world to you, then why is Canada ahead of the US in terms of quality of life ? (United Nations Development Programme - Human Development Report 2002, 2003, 2004 web: http://www.undp.org) I usually don't like such listings but I noticed some of you needed to see "sources" or whatever.... It's on the web anyway!
To come back to Phred's posts, well I still have some things to address :
"Canadians as a whole (and yes I realize this cannot be said of every single Canadian) are an envious bunch..." Well, let's just end the charade and call you God right away! Who are you to judge the caracters of 30 million people? Maybe you met a couple of envious people up North in all those years, but it doesn't give you the right to generalize your experience to a whole nation. Believe me, I've met some stupid, fat, poorly educated, etc. people in the US and I won't go and state that I believe that most americans are also like that. That would be just plain dumb.
"They can't bear to think that anyone might have anything more than they do, no matter how hard that person worked to get it. But rather than make it easier for everyone to get more, they have decided it's better to make sure no one can get anything" Well, the way I see it we just let everyone get the same no matter if they are rich or poor. That may create some problems, but I believe they can be fixed. Not everything is "hopeless", as you might think. And if you are used to higher standards of medecine than that of Canada, then good for you. But pray to God you don't go bankrupt because I can tell you you'll be remembering the good old days when you got free and decent treatment up North...
"Indeed. There was a time when Canada's military was no joke. That doesn't alter the fact that it is today and has been for decades." I wouldn't call a conscripted army a "no-joke" army if you ask me. I'd call it more of a sacrifice. Not a very useful one I might add.
"Dude, if I can't understand what a sales clerk is saying to me, I'll shop elsewhere. Of course, as a longtime resident of Ottawa and a frequent visitor to Hull, Aylmer, Gatineau, and Montreal, I've run into the situation of having salesclerks refuse to speak to me in English countless times. Hell, it's happened to me in border towns on the Ontario side of the river as well, and a couple of times even in Vanier (a Francophone section of Ottawa). No sweat off my nose. " The point is Quebec is a French-speaking state. Its official language is in fact French. As a Quebec resident, the "Charte de la langue francaise" tells me that : "Le droit des consommateurs d'?tre inform?s et servis en fran?ais." (Titre I, art. 4) This means when I go shopping near home I have the right to be served in French. Unfortunately for you, English is legally the second language in Quebec. The only place in the province where YOU would be served in English ALL the time would be in a federal-regulated institution. (since the federal gov.'s position is that Canada is a bilingual country...my ass! They should open their eyes and see that lots of people outside of Quebec don't care about learning French and that lots of peope in Quebec don't care about English either...) And it would also be in such institutions that I would be guaranteed to be spoken to in French if I traveled in the other provinces.
"Hell, even the Nicaraguans reject Socialism. Canadians embrace it. " Well, I'd like to tell you a little story about a man named ROnald Reagan and his buddies, the Contras... Or maybe the millions and millions poured into right-wing parties in the Eighties. So, officially (and once again), Americans reject Socialism. Leave them poor Nicaraguans out of this for God's sake!
Anyways, this exchange of thoughts could last for years the way I see it... so I'll just leave you alone at your justifications for now. At least try to remember you're a mere human, just like all of us, and what most of what you think is right comes from beliefs, and not thoughts. Arguing over beliefs is just pointless, as I could condition myself to believe I hold the truth.
-------------------- A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?
|
|