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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping
    #4356518 - 06/30/05 08:00 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I'm interested in what people think about Terence McKenna's notion that time is telescoping, in othe words that durations of time are like cycles and as we go forward from the big bang to the present these cycles started very long but have gradually becoming exponentially shorter. He specifically says, among other things, "the first short age is history" meaning that human history, all 5,000 years is the first age of the universe's evolution that is maybe past the halfway point towards the end?? he says this period's length is 4,600 years. or something similar to that perhaps. 64 years is the next shortest period..."august the 6th 1945 over Hiroshima, the big bang, it's little self"
384 days in duration is the length of the next one. then it gets shorter and shorter and you're there at 2012. rapid closures.

I would say the theory is worth considering if you just look at the history of life's evolution. 2 billion years as cells. 1 billion years as plants, 500000 years as fish, 250000 years as apes...or whatever it is, obviuosly that's not quite accurate but it seems like the pace of life's advance into something special gets faster and faster. it also seems like human culture's advance has gotten faster and faster. 2000 years as desert nomads...1000 years as farming peasants....10 years as disco hippies......but also There is some sort of fractal telescoping going on for us I'm convinced of that at least.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4356559 - 06/30/05 08:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Hey that's not fair, how come nobody talks about my crazy beliefs?

Oh wait, I don't have a PhD

Anyway, if I get a PhD, does that mean I get to write books about how alien intelligence created the earth ecosystem?


--------------------
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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4356563 - 06/30/05 08:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Here on the shroomery you get to talk about alien intelligence creating the earth ecosystem whether you got a PHd or you don't gone one!  :smile2:


--------------------
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Offlinealsey
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4356566 - 06/30/05 08:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

mckenna's theories are mathematical - he has added his own meanings to what are really just mathematical expressions.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4356568 - 06/30/05 08:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

So what do you think of the meanings he applied to mathematical expressions?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4356571 - 06/30/05 08:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
Here on the shroomery you get to talk about alien intelligence creating the earth ecosystem whether you got a PHd or you don't gone one!  :smile2:





I'm embarassed to do that. PhD would give me confidence, and 50% of people would buy my crap because I have my name on a fancy paper


--------------------
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Offlinealsey
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4356603 - 06/30/05 08:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

to put it bluntly, bullshit.

to make a very simple analogy, its like saying '7 - 7 = 0, therefore the world is going to end in seven years'.

i don't know, i don't claim to completely understand his theory, but thats how it appears to me. its a wonderful piece of maths, but the meanings he has given to it have no foundation in observable evidence.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4356614 - 06/30/05 08:26 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

there are also plenty of things that run contrary to the trend; for example, a few picoseconds of subatomic particles, a few seconds of hadrons, minutes of nuclei, hours of atoms, billions of years of more complex structures.

mckenna attached some sort of special importance to human life with his theory, without explaining why.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4356706 - 06/30/05 08:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
there are also plenty of things that run contrary to the trend; for example, a few picoseconds of subatomic particles, a few seconds of hadrons, minutes of nuclei, hours of atoms, billions of years of more complex structures.

mckenna attached some sort of special importance to human life with his theory, without explaining why.




not following you.. the applies special importance to human life cause as far as anyone has been able to find out we are the only conscious entities in the universe so far.


--------------------
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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4357045 - 06/30/05 10:45 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

not following you.. the applies special importance to human life cause as far as anyone has been able to find out we are the only conscious entities in the universe so far.

The only concious entities that we, as concious entities capable of searching for other concious entities, are currently aware of. When you consider the size of the universe, how little we've explored, and how short this period of exploration has been I don't see how you could think this is anything more than unsubstantiated tomfoolery.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4357210 - 06/30/05 11:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"Oh wait, I don't have a PhD"

You don't need a Phd...just write the book...call yourself a Doctor, Reverend, or Jedi Knight for that matter. Your credentials are not important. If you cater to the drug community you will find enough weirdos to carry your cause.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4357309 - 07/01/05 12:04 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Yea... Time has relative meaning, but ultimately has no real existence.

"...time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live."  -A. Einstein

"Space & time are concepts which give context to experience. They have no reality in themselves. They are only forms of perception."  -anonymous

How long is one "instant"?
:ooo:


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: primal]
    #4357330 - 07/01/05 12:12 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

He didn't say the world is going to end, just this AGE. And what exactly, will happen? No one has any idea. But something is going to happen...it has to.


McKennaDMT


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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #4357337 - 07/01/05 12:13 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing is something.

Why does "it" have to happen?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4358336 - 07/01/05 04:46 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Terrence McKenna's choice of dates and numbers was arbitrary. His pseudoscience did not converge on those dates and numbers; rather he adjusted his data set to fit his invention.

There is nothing in the I-Ching that leads to any of this. Let me say that again because it never sinks in: McKenna's choices of dates and numbers was arbitrary... made up to fit his ideas. None of his data has any basis in reason.

That he picked the end of the Mayan calendar as significant shouldn't be surprising given his obsession with psychedelic mushrooms which figure prominently in the Mayan culture.


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4358486 - 07/01/05 06:18 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
not following you.. the applies special importance to human life cause as far as anyone has been able to find out we are the only conscious entities in the universe so far.




that's a an assumption, not a fact.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358537 - 07/01/05 07:05 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Terrence McKenna's choice of dates and numbers was arbitrary. His pseudoscience did not converge on those dates and numbers; rather he adjusted his data set to fit his invention.

There is nothing in the I-Ching that leads to any of this. Let me say that again because it never sinks in: McKenna's choices of dates and numbers was arbitrary... made up to fit his ideas. None of his data has any basis in reason.

That he picked the end of the Mayan calendar as significant shouldn't be surprising given his obsession with psychedelic mushrooms which figure prominently in the Mayan culture.





I'll quote McKenna and let him stand up for himself:

"Whitehead had this idea of what he called 'concrescence' and he said, you know, that the universe had an appertition for novelty, an appetite for novelty that moved toward a nexus of concrescence, and I believe that, yes, we are so close to the transcendental object at the end of time that really it is going to occur probably in late 2012. The reasons for being so specific are too complex to go into now, but I'll just give you a short of throw-away explanation which is that's the end date of the Mayan calendar. That's not why I chose it, but I later, after choosing this date, discovered it was the end date of Mayan calendar. Well, the only thing I have in common with the Maya, they took mushrooms and I take mushrooms, so it's almost as though, you know, this is the bar code stamped on the psilocybin paraphoniae, when you get it all pieced together, no matter where in time and space you are, there's this vector pointing at the early years of the 21st century as the place where we, where it becomes explicit that we are in a process of exponential transformation. "


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: a_h_w]
    #4358548 - 07/01/05 07:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

one more quote, now from Jan Wicherink

"Years before the end date of the Maya Calendar was finally established in the nineties by Jose Arguelles, Terrence McKenna and his brother Denis developed a Time Wave zero theory. The Time Wave zero theory explains that time is recursively imploding like a fractal to an end time that mysteriously is the exact same date as given for the Mayan Long Count Calendar, the 21st of December 2012. It is important to notice that the brothers McKenna derived their Time Wave Zero end date long before Jose Arguelles established the end date of the Mayan calendar."


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: a_h_w]
    #4358563 - 07/01/05 07:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

That's not why I chose it, but I later, after choosing this date, discovered it was the end date of Mayan calendar.

That's convenient, especially given McKenna's long and well known fascination with the Mayans including numerous trips to Mayan ruins in southern Mexico and Central America before he invented his Time Wave thing.

Here, I'll quote McKenna too, commenting on the debunking of his Time Wave mumbo jumbo by a mathematitian named Matthew Watkins:

From "Autopsy for a Mathematical Hallucination?"

http://serendipity.nofadz.com/ft/autopsy.html

"Recently, while in Mexico at the classic Maya site of Palenque, I made the aquaintance of a young British mathematician and psychokinesiologist named Matthew Watkins. Watkins offered the strongest and most interesting critique of the timewave and the assumptions of its construction yet made. Watkins is confident that he has condensed the theory of the timewave into a formula (given below) and is further convinced that there is no rational basis for assuming that the timewave represents the fluctuation of any quantity which can be meaningfully understood as 'novelty'." -- Terence McKenna

And a few key excerpts from Watkins' analysis:

Strangely, McKenna's description of the derivation fails to yield the data points which appear in the appendix and which have been used since.

and

By the final discussion he [McKenna] seemed to have fully grasped the nature of the problem, and had admitted that the theory appeared to have "no basis in rational thought".

and

As a mathematician who has met and talked with him [McKenna], who is sympathetic with the majority of his other work, and who is only interested in spreading clarity, I must conclude that the "timewave" cannot be taken to be what McKenna claims it is.

Of course, the complete debunking of the basis for a True Believer's beliefs has never stopped one from continuing to believe anyway.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358631 - 07/01/05 08:14 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Some of you are describing kind old Terrence like he was a madman. I thought he was sound in his beliefs. Don't attribute these outlandish beliefs to Terrence. He was never claiming to have the truth, he was just saying what he thought. He wasn't a pseudoscientist at all, he would be a humanist way before that. But I'm certain if he had to choose he would say that he too was indescribable and didn't fit in any labels, especially ones that aren't true.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4358639 - 07/01/05 08:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I liked McKenna, and I liked some of his other work, but BS is BS. Believe in nonsense if it makes you happy, but at least do it with open eyes and in the knowledge that it's based on faith and not science or math.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358698 - 07/01/05 09:25 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Let me say that again because it never sinks in: McKenna's choices of dates and numbers was arbitrary... made up to fit his ideas.




I was not trying to prove his theory right, I don't really care about the mathematics beyond the timewave novelty and whether his theory is right or not. there are some interesting things about it and it doesn't take any math to realize human evolution spirals into an ever increasing rate of scientific/technological development.

I just found it interesting that you accused him of choosing numbers and dates to fit his theory, because in the end you were the one making up arbitrary assumptions just to fit your ideas.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: a_h_w]
    #4358713 - 07/01/05 09:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I don't really care about the mathematics beyond the timewave novelty and whether his theory is right or not

So, you don't care that the Time Wave is arbitrary and not on any kind of sound footing as admitted by McKenna himself, but you ascribe significance to it anyway.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358724 - 07/01/05 09:45 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Diploid, I'm glad you quoted the "Autopsy for a Mathematical Hallucination." McKenna eventually addressed these concerns - and adequately - but there are still problems with his theory. The author of the Fractal Time software, Peter Meyer, who helped McKenna figure out the mathematics for Timewave Zero, is the webmaster at the Serendipity site. Last year I was writing an honors thesis on certain aspects of McKennas philosophy, including Timewave Zero, so I contacted him and we discussed the problems with the timewave. You can find excerpts from the discussion here:
http://serendipity.nofadz.com/ft/msgs/20040212a.htm

Peter's objection to Timewave Zero - which I find entirely reasonable - is that you cannot quanify the property of novelty, and the quantification of novelty is what the entire theory is based upon. This is what question_for_joo is referring to when he refers to human progress. McKenna saw novelty as the defining force for progress. That's well and good, but how do you quantify novelty? How do you know if one event is ultimately more novel than the other? Even though something might seem momentous to the people directy involved, it can be meaningless to others.

I've used the fractal time software, and when looking back at the past, the graph seems to match up quite well with historical events. The problem being that it's way too easy to be historically selective. The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does. I've looked at spikes and drops in the graph and haven't seen major corresponding world events. Maybe some things occurred that were of great importance but seemed not to be of great and novel importance, but then how do you know what's what? It's a mess.

On the other hand, I think viewing time as a fractal and human history as the march towards a strange attractor within the fractal is an interesting idea. I think about it when I'm high all the time. Whether or not such a conception corresponds to the nature of time in any way whatsoever is difficult to tell and probably moot - if you keep yourself in check when thinking about it, I think it is useful in its ability to conceive of something so fundamental as time differently.

Oh, also, Diploid: Timewave Zero is soldily based on the King Wen sequence of I Ching hexagrams. Using another sequence, such as the Huang Ti, will reveal a quite different graph. You can switch between the sets using the Fractal Time software.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4358735 - 07/01/05 09:55 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

you cannot quanify the property of novelty

Exactly. This renders the Time Wave just another religion subject to the whims of interpretation. And given humans' ability for self-deception, accommodating historical events to fit the graph is more likely than the graph predicting historical events.

The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does.

BINGO!

--

Peter Meyer: I think that Terence's claims for the original (or any) timewave were based on a selection of evidence (historical + qualities of wave). That is, he chose historical events which fit the wave.

and

Peter Meyer: But I regard it has having no explanatory or predictive power, and so is useless as a cognitive aid. It can, however, be entertaining, as long as one doesn't believe it gives any knowledge. Unfortunately (as I suspect) a lot of people do believe that, so they're fooling themselves (as people tend to do).

and

Peter Meyer: The problem is that the construction of any of the sets of 384 numbers is arbitrary. That would not be a fatal objection if the theory could be used to explain or predict, but it can't (in a way which withstands criticism).

and

Peter Meyer: I think Terence is best remembered for his contributions other than TWZ

That last one sums up my feelings about McKenna as well.  :thumbup:


Edited by Diploid (07/01/05 10:13 AM)


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4358787 - 07/01/05 10:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sox24 said:
He wasn't a pseudoscientist at all,




yeah he was, he came up with a theory that predicts the future without following the scientific method...that's pseudoscience.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4359040 - 07/01/05 12:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think McKenna ever claimed to be a scientist, and I think that much of his value comes in challening the methods and assumptions of science. Whether or not he succeeded is another issue.

If anything, the motherfucker can talk! You can download his lectures here: http://mckenna.psychedelic-library.org/

He has this persuasive charisma that enables him to talk for hours on end. There's no doubt McKenna was highly intelligent. Just make sure not to take what he says at face value just because he sounds convincing. Being an exemplary public speaker does not mean you know what you're talking about. (But I don't mean to shit on McKenna, I still have much respect for him).


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4359152 - 07/01/05 12:52 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I think its somewhat unfair to characterize TWZ as "pseudo-science" because McKenna himself was quite prepared to reject it if it failed to accurately predict real events. In looking carefully at the evidence, I think most skeptics have at this point concluded that it has not done so, and therefore the theory has been disproved. Thats in keeping with a scientific methodology. There may still be those true believers who are still on the fence and until 12/21/2012 there probably will be a few holdouts, but the theory is disprovable, therefore, in a broad sense, scientific (though probably wrong).

From what I understand, his selection of 2012 was initially based on the TWZ calculations retroactively applied taking the date of the Hiroshima bomb as the primary "novelty" event. He later adjusted it slightly (by a few months) to the Mayan calendar.

As far as telescoping time in general, it seems abundantly clear (to me, at least) that human culture is complexifying at an exponentially increasing rate (consider Moore's Law, for example) and there does seem to be something to the notion that locally at least complexity has been increasing exponentially since the Big Bang. There are a lot of serious thinkers predicting a technological singularity of the type McKenna described, though few have put it as near as 2012. Probably within the lifetime of most of us, though.

There is also something quite appealing about his teleological approach, although I am quite happy to characterize that as "religious" in the broad sense.

I am not convinced, however, as McKenna seemed to be, that the two trends (complexification and teleology) are linked.


--------------------
Money is human happiness in the abstract; he, then, who is no longer capable of enjoying human happiness in the concrete devotes himself utterly to money.

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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Gamera]
    #4359888 - 07/01/05 04:15 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Gamera said:
There are a lot of serious thinkers predicting a technological singularity of the type McKenna described, though few have put it as near as 2012.  Probably within the lifetime of most of us, though.





Well what about if one area of scientific technological advancement were to reach a singularity in 7 years time.  There's a lot of strange stuff being explored these days.  Fusion?  Human Cloning? Interstellar Spacecraft? :eek: Time Travel? :eek: :eek: Salsa that doesn't splatter when you nuke it?:eek: :eek: :eek:    The possibility is there for something dramatic, and one that is somehow most important or more fundamental than all others.  I think that possibility is there. 

It only took about  one year from when the idea of nuclear fission was first born until it was accepted and marvelled at by scientists around the world.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4359922 - 07/01/05 04:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mikeytwice said:
I've used the fractal time software, and when looking back at the past, the graph seems to match up quite well with historical events. The problem being that it's way too easy to be historically selective. The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does. I've looked at spikes and drops in the graph and haven't seen major corresponding world events. Maybe some things occurred that were of great importance but seemed not to be of great and novel importance, but then how do you know what's what? It's a mess.




I have studied the Timewave graphs as well and I am in complete agreement with you that it doesn't seem to have correspondences with most dramatic world events, however it does have some correspondences with a few. Have you looked at the 9/11 graph? The turn is there and granted it's not a terribly big turn but it synchs up really close. I think the Timewave does have strength though when comparing it with longterm world trends, like on the order of 400 year ages. It synchs up with Classical Greece, with Classical Egypt, with the medieval period, with the imperialism, with the enlightenment, even with WWII.... I want to link you to an mp3 where he does a good job of just talking you through the graph in comparison with human history but I can't remember which one it is at the moment. Anyway, some amazing coincidences with the graph and the macro-species evolution reptile to homo sapien exist as well.

I will think on this mp3 and see if I can find it, or perhaps get some graph images.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4359965 - 07/01/05 04:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That's not why I chose it, but I later, after choosing this date, discovered it was the end date of Mayan calendar.

That's convenient, especially given McKenna's long and well known fascination with the Mayans including numerous trips to Mayan ruins in southern Mexico and Central America before he invented his Time Wave thing.






I hadn't heard that before so if it's true then I just learned something new.  Well so you're saying he really did know something about the Mayan Calendar and its ending in 2012 before he made the timewave.  Well hrrmm golly gee whiz.  That is an important point.  It seems an awful lot like it's now just a question of your word against his but let me just say that I know a person can be interested in something, a hobby, or a sport, or a people's history, and be knowledgeable and fond of some aspects of it, and at the same time be ignorant of other parts of it.  Maybe you know a lot about Large Cap stocks, but don't know much about the insurance industry.  In some ways I think
I don't know enough about the history of the rediscovery of the Mayan Civilization to really offer the most worthwhile contribution to this matter but I do know a bit about Jose Arguelles and let me just say that it was difficult work, as hard as figuring out hyroglyphics of ancient Egypt but they got a rosetta stone and Terence McKenna and the ancient mayans both took big doses of mushrooms periodically!
:oogle: :present: :wexican:


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4359993 - 07/01/05 04:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I have studied the Timewave graphs as well and I am in complete agreement with you that it doesn't seem to have correspondences with most dramatic world events, however it does have some correspondences with a few.

This is called accommodation. If you are a True Believer, you will find some way to fit the fortune teller's story into your life.

Fortune Teller: There may be some changes coming up in your life.
True Believer: Well, I have been thinking of buying a new washing machine.

Fortune Teller: You've suffered a loss.
True Believer: Well, my cousin's neighbor's wife died.

Fortune Teller: There is some travel in your future.
True Believer: Well, I do drive to work every morning.

Did you not read the Peter Meyer quote above: "I think that Terence's claims for the original (or any) timewave were based on a selection of evidence (historical + qualities of wave). That is, he chose historical events which fit the wave."

and

"Unfortunately (as I suspect) a lot of people do believe that, so they're fooling themselves"

Of course, as a True Believer, you will refuse to accept even the word of the person who helped McKenna develop the TWZ and wrote the software that implements when he denounces the whole thing as entertaining nonsense. Instead, you will cling to an irrational belief with no basis in reality.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4360662 - 07/01/05 07:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
Quote:

sox24 said:
He wasn't a pseudoscientist at all,




yeah he was, he came up with a theory that predicts the future without following the scientific method...that's pseudoscience.




Then I guess he's not your cup of tea.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4443919 - 07/23/05 07:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

MikeyTwice, the link you quoted, http://serendipity.nofadz.com/ft/msgs/20040212a.htm no longer appears to be valid. Has this moved somewhere or is the server just down or ?


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Plok]
    #4444162 - 07/23/05 08:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It does seem to apply only to 'human complexity', like alsey said.

I've just started looking into Mckenna's stuff recently, so I can't really comment much more than saying that I find it really interesting. He is an incredible orator, that is for damn sure.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4444225 - 07/23/05 08:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I find it really interesting. He is an incredible orator, that is for damn sure.

And hence the problem with our world. Politicians are voted in largely on appearance and charisma rather than substance. Hitler was a great orator. Jimmy Swaggart is a great orator. Not comparing them directly, merely pointing out that great speaking does not equal a great man or a great truth.

McKenna is entertaining, funny, educated, well-spoken and therefore more believeable to many regardless of any factual basis to his claims.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Swami]
    #4445155 - 07/24/05 01:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The idea hasn't become more, or less valid as a result of his oration skill. Just more worthy of my time to listen to. I'm going to be able to understand more of what is being said, as opposed to having to decypher a persons thinking process. In the same way that it is more pleasing to listen to a bird sing a song, then a radio garble static in morse code (some mushrooms will likely change my mind on that though, hah). Both represent a means of communication, but one is clearly far too esoteric for the common idiot to interperet - and so they don't. Yes, i've just implied that I am an idiot, but no one person can be capable of understanding everything at a superlative level. Some things need to be grossly simplified even to brilliant people.

How can there be something 'wrong' with the world today? I don't like making that kind of assesment in any situation. Change should always happen, but not based on idealism, or a concept of right and wrong. Efficiency and fluidity perhaps, but even that is idealism of some kind.

If a person gets into power based on their charasma, they can not possibly be in power at all. The have made themselves into a puppet of 'popular wisdom' (yes, even hitler).

I don't mean to be taking a combative tone, so I appologise if it sounds like that. Just trying to explain myself. smoke break!

edit- if you were saying that the problem is in the interpretation, well, that is fair enough I suppose. We are but mortals however.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


Edited by AvatarofAtavism (07/24/05 01:21 AM)


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4445361 - 07/24/05 02:27 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

are New Age boloney.....haven't we discussed this? I know history repeats but this is too frequent.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4446159 - 07/24/05 09:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hey I made this post almost 4 weeks ago. It was Diploid who resurrected it from the dead ok.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4446220 - 07/24/05 10:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
Hey I made this post almost 4 weeks ago.  It was Diploid who resurrected it from the dead ok.




No it wasn't.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4446222 - 07/24/05 10:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

are you trying to make trouble?


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4446230 - 07/24/05 10:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If you define doing so as logically disagreeing with your statement on the basis of easily observable fact, than, yes, I am trying to make trouble. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4446231 - 07/24/05 10:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sox24 said:
Then I guess he's not your cup of tea.




no, in fact i find his work very interesting. i just disagree with him, as any good scientist would.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4448354 - 07/24/05 10:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
Quote:

sox24 said:
Then I guess he's not your cup of tea.




no, in fact i find his work very interesting. i just disagree with him, as any good scientist would.




But why claim to disagree with one of the few geniuses of this world who said he didn't have the answers, who was more of a discussion leader or a brain storming storyteller than a scientist? It doesn't make any sense scientifically.


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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4449560 - 07/25/05 05:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sox24 said:
But why claim to disagree with one of the few geniuses of this world who said he didn't have the answers, who was more of a discussion leader or a brain storming storyteller than a scientist? It doesn't make any sense scientifically.




oh, so i should agree with him because he's a genius?

he applied arbitrary meanings to his mathematics, based on some special significance he attributed to humans. that is flawed reasoning, and hence i disagree with him. i don't care who he was, i simply disagree with his idea.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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