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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4358639 - 07/01/05 08:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I liked McKenna, and I liked some of his other work, but BS is BS. Believe in nonsense if it makes you happy, but at least do it with open eyes and in the knowledge that it's based on faith and not science or math.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358698 - 07/01/05 09:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Let me say that again because it never sinks in: McKenna's choices of dates and numbers was arbitrary... made up to fit his ideas.




I was not trying to prove his theory right, I don't really care about the mathematics beyond the timewave novelty and whether his theory is right or not. there are some interesting things about it and it doesn't take any math to realize human evolution spirals into an ever increasing rate of scientific/technological development.

I just found it interesting that you accused him of choosing numbers and dates to fit his theory, because in the end you were the one making up arbitrary assumptions just to fit your ideas.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: a_h_w]
    #4358713 - 07/01/05 09:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really care about the mathematics beyond the timewave novelty and whether his theory is right or not

So, you don't care that the Time Wave is arbitrary and not on any kind of sound footing as admitted by McKenna himself, but you ascribe significance to it anyway.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinemikeytwice
Wanderer

Registered: 06/21/05
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4358724 - 07/01/05 09:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid, I'm glad you quoted the "Autopsy for a Mathematical Hallucination." McKenna eventually addressed these concerns - and adequately - but there are still problems with his theory. The author of the Fractal Time software, Peter Meyer, who helped McKenna figure out the mathematics for Timewave Zero, is the webmaster at the Serendipity site. Last year I was writing an honors thesis on certain aspects of McKennas philosophy, including Timewave Zero, so I contacted him and we discussed the problems with the timewave. You can find excerpts from the discussion here:
http://serendipity.nofadz.com/ft/msgs/20040212a.htm

Peter's objection to Timewave Zero - which I find entirely reasonable - is that you cannot quanify the property of novelty, and the quantification of novelty is what the entire theory is based upon. This is what question_for_joo is referring to when he refers to human progress. McKenna saw novelty as the defining force for progress. That's well and good, but how do you quantify novelty? How do you know if one event is ultimately more novel than the other? Even though something might seem momentous to the people directy involved, it can be meaningless to others.

I've used the fractal time software, and when looking back at the past, the graph seems to match up quite well with historical events. The problem being that it's way too easy to be historically selective. The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does. I've looked at spikes and drops in the graph and haven't seen major corresponding world events. Maybe some things occurred that were of great importance but seemed not to be of great and novel importance, but then how do you know what's what? It's a mess.

On the other hand, I think viewing time as a fractal and human history as the march towards a strange attractor within the fractal is an interesting idea. I think about it when I'm high all the time. Whether or not such a conception corresponds to the nature of time in any way whatsoever is difficult to tell and probably moot - if you keep yourself in check when thinking about it, I think it is useful in its ability to conceive of something so fundamental as time differently.

Oh, also, Diploid: Timewave Zero is soldily based on the King Wen sequence of I Ching hexagrams. Using another sequence, such as the Huang Ti, will reveal a quite different graph. You can switch between the sets using the Fractal Time software.


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\


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4358735 - 07/01/05 09:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

you cannot quanify the property of novelty

Exactly. This renders the Time Wave just another religion subject to the whims of interpretation. And given humans' ability for self-deception, accommodating historical events to fit the graph is more likely than the graph predicting historical events.

The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does.

BINGO!

--

Peter Meyer: I think that Terence's claims for the original (or any) timewave were based on a selection of evidence (historical + qualities of wave). That is, he chose historical events which fit the wave.

and

Peter Meyer: But I regard it has having no explanatory or predictive power, and so is useless as a cognitive aid. It can, however, be entertaining, as long as one doesn't believe it gives any knowledge. Unfortunately (as I suspect) a lot of people do believe that, so they're fooling themselves (as people tend to do).

and

Peter Meyer: The problem is that the construction of any of the sets of 384 numbers is arbitrary. That would not be a fatal objection if the theory could be used to explain or predict, but it can't (in a way which withstands criticism).

and

Peter Meyer: I think Terence is best remembered for his contributions other than TWZ

That last one sums up my feelings about McKenna as well.  :thumbup:


Edited by Diploid (07/01/05 10:13 AM)


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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4358787 - 07/01/05 10:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sox24 said:
He wasn't a pseudoscientist at all,




yeah he was, he came up with a theory that predicts the future without following the scientific method...that's pseudoscience.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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Offlinemikeytwice
Wanderer

Registered: 06/21/05
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4359040 - 07/01/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think McKenna ever claimed to be a scientist, and I think that much of his value comes in challening the methods and assumptions of science. Whether or not he succeeded is another issue.

If anything, the motherfucker can talk! You can download his lectures here: http://mckenna.psychedelic-library.org/

He has this persuasive charisma that enables him to talk for hours on end. There's no doubt McKenna was highly intelligent. Just make sure not to take what he says at face value just because he sounds convincing. Being an exemplary public speaker does not mean you know what you're talking about. (But I don't mean to shit on McKenna, I still have much respect for him).


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\


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OfflineGamera

Registered: 06/16/05
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4359152 - 07/01/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I think its somewhat unfair to characterize TWZ as "pseudo-science" because McKenna himself was quite prepared to reject it if it failed to accurately predict real events. In looking carefully at the evidence, I think most skeptics have at this point concluded that it has not done so, and therefore the theory has been disproved. Thats in keeping with a scientific methodology. There may still be those true believers who are still on the fence and until 12/21/2012 there probably will be a few holdouts, but the theory is disprovable, therefore, in a broad sense, scientific (though probably wrong).

From what I understand, his selection of 2012 was initially based on the TWZ calculations retroactively applied taking the date of the Hiroshima bomb as the primary "novelty" event. He later adjusted it slightly (by a few months) to the Mayan calendar.

As far as telescoping time in general, it seems abundantly clear (to me, at least) that human culture is complexifying at an exponentially increasing rate (consider Moore's Law, for example) and there does seem to be something to the notion that locally at least complexity has been increasing exponentially since the Big Bang. There are a lot of serious thinkers predicting a technological singularity of the type McKenna described, though few have put it as near as 2012. Probably within the lifetime of most of us, though.

There is also something quite appealing about his teleological approach, although I am quite happy to characterize that as "religious" in the broad sense.

I am not convinced, however, as McKenna seemed to be, that the two trends (complexification and teleology) are linked.


--------------------
Money is human happiness in the abstract; he, then, who is no longer capable of enjoying human happiness in the concrete devotes himself utterly to money.

Arthur Schopenhauer


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Gamera]
    #4359888 - 07/01/05 04:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gamera said:
There are a lot of serious thinkers predicting a technological singularity of the type McKenna described, though few have put it as near as 2012.  Probably within the lifetime of most of us, though.





Well what about if one area of scientific technological advancement were to reach a singularity in 7 years time.  There's a lot of strange stuff being explored these days.  Fusion?  Human Cloning? Interstellar Spacecraft? :eek: Time Travel? :eek: :eek: Salsa that doesn't splatter when you nuke it?:eek: :eek: :eek:    The possibility is there for something dramatic, and one that is somehow most important or more fundamental than all others.  I think that possibility is there. 

It only took about  one year from when the idea of nuclear fission was first born until it was accepted and marvelled at by scientists around the world.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4359922 - 07/01/05 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mikeytwice said:
I've used the fractal time software, and when looking back at the past, the graph seems to match up quite well with historical events. The problem being that it's way too easy to be historically selective. The real question is whether the theory has predictive power, and I don't think it does. I've looked at spikes and drops in the graph and haven't seen major corresponding world events. Maybe some things occurred that were of great importance but seemed not to be of great and novel importance, but then how do you know what's what? It's a mess.




I have studied the Timewave graphs as well and I am in complete agreement with you that it doesn't seem to have correspondences with most dramatic world events, however it does have some correspondences with a few. Have you looked at the 9/11 graph? The turn is there and granted it's not a terribly big turn but it synchs up really close. I think the Timewave does have strength though when comparing it with longterm world trends, like on the order of 400 year ages. It synchs up with Classical Greece, with Classical Egypt, with the medieval period, with the imperialism, with the enlightenment, even with WWII.... I want to link you to an mp3 where he does a good job of just talking you through the graph in comparison with human history but I can't remember which one it is at the moment. Anyway, some amazing coincidences with the graph and the macro-species evolution reptile to homo sapien exist as well.

I will think on this mp3 and see if I can find it, or perhaps get some graph images.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Diploid]
    #4359965 - 07/01/05 04:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That's not why I chose it, but I later, after choosing this date, discovered it was the end date of Mayan calendar.

That's convenient, especially given McKenna's long and well known fascination with the Mayans including numerous trips to Mayan ruins in southern Mexico and Central America before he invented his Time Wave thing.






I hadn't heard that before so if it's true then I just learned something new.  Well so you're saying he really did know something about the Mayan Calendar and its ending in 2012 before he made the timewave.  Well hrrmm golly gee whiz.  That is an important point.  It seems an awful lot like it's now just a question of your word against his but let me just say that I know a person can be interested in something, a hobby, or a sport, or a people's history, and be knowledgeable and fond of some aspects of it, and at the same time be ignorant of other parts of it.  Maybe you know a lot about Large Cap stocks, but don't know much about the insurance industry.  In some ways I think
I don't know enough about the history of the rediscovery of the Mayan Civilization to really offer the most worthwhile contribution to this matter but I do know a bit about Jose Arguelles and let me just say that it was difficult work, as hard as figuring out hyroglyphics of ancient Egypt but they got a rosetta stone and Terence McKenna and the ancient mayans both took big doses of mushrooms periodically!
:oogle: :present: :wexican:


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4359993 - 07/01/05 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have studied the Timewave graphs as well and I am in complete agreement with you that it doesn't seem to have correspondences with most dramatic world events, however it does have some correspondences with a few.

This is called accommodation. If you are a True Believer, you will find some way to fit the fortune teller's story into your life.

Fortune Teller: There may be some changes coming up in your life.
True Believer: Well, I have been thinking of buying a new washing machine.

Fortune Teller: You've suffered a loss.
True Believer: Well, my cousin's neighbor's wife died.

Fortune Teller: There is some travel in your future.
True Believer: Well, I do drive to work every morning.

Did you not read the Peter Meyer quote above: "I think that Terence's claims for the original (or any) timewave were based on a selection of evidence (historical + qualities of wave). That is, he chose historical events which fit the wave."

and

"Unfortunately (as I suspect) a lot of people do believe that, so they're fooling themselves"

Of course, as a True Believer, you will refuse to accept even the word of the person who helped McKenna develop the TWZ and wrote the software that implements when he denounces the whole thing as entertaining nonsense. Instead, you will cling to an irrational belief with no basis in reality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinesox24
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: alsey]
    #4360662 - 07/01/05 07:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
Quote:

sox24 said:
He wasn't a pseudoscientist at all,




yeah he was, he came up with a theory that predicts the future without following the scientific method...that's pseudoscience.




Then I guess he's not your cup of tea.


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OfflinePlok
Life is fractal
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: sox24]
    #4443919 - 07/23/05 07:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

MikeyTwice, the link you quoted, http://serendipity.nofadz.com/ft/msgs/20040212a.htm no longer appears to be valid. Has this moved somewhere or is the server just down or ?


--------------------
Just say NO to the War on Drugs.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Plok]
    #4444162 - 07/23/05 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It does seem to apply only to 'human complexity', like alsey said.

I've just started looking into Mckenna's stuff recently, so I can't really comment much more than saying that I find it really interesting. He is an incredible orator, that is for damn sure.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4444225 - 07/23/05 08:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I find it really interesting. He is an incredible orator, that is for damn sure.

And hence the problem with our world. Politicians are voted in largely on appearance and charisma rather than substance. Hitler was a great orator. Jimmy Swaggart is a great orator. Not comparing them directly, merely pointing out that great speaking does not equal a great man or a great truth.

McKenna is entertaining, funny, educated, well-spoken and therefore more believeable to many regardless of any factual basis to his claims.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping [Re: Swami]
    #4445155 - 07/24/05 01:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The idea hasn't become more, or less valid as a result of his oration skill. Just more worthy of my time to listen to. I'm going to be able to understand more of what is being said, as opposed to having to decypher a persons thinking process. In the same way that it is more pleasing to listen to a bird sing a song, then a radio garble static in morse code (some mushrooms will likely change my mind on that though, hah). Both represent a means of communication, but one is clearly far too esoteric for the common idiot to interperet - and so they don't. Yes, i've just implied that I am an idiot, but no one person can be capable of understanding everything at a superlative level. Some things need to be grossly simplified even to brilliant people.

How can there be something 'wrong' with the world today? I don't like making that kind of assesment in any situation. Change should always happen, but not based on idealism, or a concept of right and wrong. Efficiency and fluidity perhaps, but even that is idealism of some kind.

If a person gets into power based on their charasma, they can not possibly be in power at all. The have made themselves into a puppet of 'popular wisdom' (yes, even hitler).

I don't mean to be taking a combative tone, so I appologise if it sounds like that. Just trying to explain myself. smoke break!

edit- if you were saying that the problem is in the interpretation, well, that is fair enough I suppose. We are but mortals however.


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


Edited by AvatarofAtavism (07/24/05 01:21 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4445361 - 07/24/05 02:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

are New Age boloney.....haven't we discussed this? I know history repeats but this is too frequent.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4446159 - 07/24/05 09:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hey I made this post almost 4 weeks ago. It was Diploid who resurrected it from the dead ok.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Terence McKenna's beliefs about time-telescoping... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4446220 - 07/24/05 10:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
Hey I made this post almost 4 weeks ago.  It was Diploid who resurrected it from the dead ok.




No it wasn't.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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