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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
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Separate But Equal
    #4353247 - 06/30/05 12:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I, NOR ANYONE ELSE, AM NOT PROMOTING SEGREGATION! THIS IS MEANT TO BE A CIVILIZED DISCUSSION!

Mods, please pay close attention to this thread and enforce some decency.
Let's keep all bigotry out of this folks. This is for the sake of discussion, and is not meant to be a thread to express hate towards any group. If you can't post without name-calling or getting flustered, then sit back, breathe deep, and count to 100 million by tenths.

Quote:

Ravus said:
I don't like to pull out race examples because some people are too emotionally charged about them, but the way we're currently dealing with gay people has strong similarities to what we used to do to blacks and minorities. As long as the schools are equal, what's wrong with making blacks go to the same school away from whites? As long as the water fountains are equal, what's wrong with making blacks drink from a different water fountain than whites?

And as long as the union is equal, what's the problem with making gays have "civil unions" while normal people get marriage?




To me it's like communism. Separate but equal could work just fine, but I doubt the equality would be on par with the separation.

If people want to mingle, then that is their agenda. Forcing people to be separate however is something altogether different.
For it to be "fair" there would have to be two separate places. We'll use the north and the south for example. In the north you could have a mixed free-for-all where everyone uses the same stuff. In the south, all groups have the same stuff, but are separated into separate sections of the state or union. All people have the choice to live in the north or the south.
What would be "wrong" with that?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Edited by daimyo (06/30/05 12:44 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353266 - 06/30/05 12:38 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
What would be "wrong" with that?




For one, "Separate, but Equal" was decided to be unconstitutional.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Redstorm]
    #4353290 - 06/30/05 12:42 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Any moral objections?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353330 - 06/30/05 12:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yes. People should be forced to be faced with things that make them uncomfortable. That is the only way they can begin to face their differences. That was one huge factor in the Brown cases.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353345 - 06/30/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Would the people in the South be provided with compensation for the transportation costs incurred in going to the North? Would there be jobs waiting for all of them when they get there? Would they be guaranteed a place to stay when they get there? Didn't think so.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Redstorm]
    #4353348 - 06/30/05 12:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Why should people have to face their differences? Do you not believe in choice?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353373 - 06/30/05 12:55 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I do, but what about the choice of the people who may not want to be separated?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353376 - 06/30/05 12:56 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Why should people have to face their differences? Do you not believe in choice?



That's the thing: Separate but equal explicitly denies personal choice. To say that someone has a choice to move to the north is to distract away from the fact that they are denied the choice of free association in their own native land.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Silversoul]
    #4353407 - 06/30/05 01:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Conversly, integration deines those who wish to be segragated that right in their native land. What makes one more important than the other?


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Redstorm]
    #4353485 - 06/30/05 01:16 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Yes. People should be forced to be faced with things that make them uncomfortable. That is the only way they can begin to face their differences. That was one huge factor in the Brown cases.




So if a few students at your childrens school wanted to wear in their Klan outfits, that'd be ok? Then you can face the things that make you uncomforatble?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353505 - 06/30/05 01:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Conversly, integration deines those who wish to be segragated that right in their native land. What makes one more important than the other?



That's bullshit. I have a right to choose whom I associate with. You don't make that decision for me. My choice to associate with people of other races and ethnicities does not obligate you to alter your behavior in any way. It does not force anything upon you, except the obligation not to initiate force. You are free to pursue you interests through persuasion or other means, but not force.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: SoopaX]
    #4353521 - 06/30/05 01:23 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SoopaX said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Yes. People should be forced to be faced with things that make them uncomfortable. That is the only way they can begin to face their differences. That was one huge factor in the Brown cases.




So if a few students at your childrens school wanted to wear in their Klan outfits, that'd be ok? Then you can face the things that make you uncomforatble?




I don't see why not. As long as it didn't lead to violence, I have no problem with such a thing.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Silversoul]
    #4353523 - 06/30/05 01:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Would the people in the South be provided with compensation for the transportation costs incurred in going to the North? Would there be jobs waiting for all of them when they get there? Would they be guaranteed a place to stay when they get there? Didn't think so.




This is not a debate of logistics. Nor is this the land of perfect from that Walgreens commercial.
Are people anywhere guaranteed a job where they are at? Are they guaranteed a place to stay? Of course not. The jobs and residences are there as long as they're not lazy.
Nobody is provided anything, same as life is now. Make your own way or move to a communist nation.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353531 - 06/30/05 01:25 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Forced segregation is not legal. If people who had a problem with a certain act or lifestyle felt they couldn't handle living with it, then they could leave. There is absolutely no reason for the people doing the act or living the lifestyle to have to move anywhere.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353560 - 06/30/05 01:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Would the people in the South be provided with compensation for the transportation costs incurred in going to the North? Would there be jobs waiting for all of them when they get there? Would they be guaranteed a place to stay when they get there? Didn't think so.




This is not a debate of logistics. Nor is this the land of perfect from that Walgreens commercial.
Are people anywhere guaranteed a job where they are at? Are they guaranteed a place to stay? Of course not. The jobs and residences are there as long as they're not lazy.
Nobody is provided anything, same as life is now. Make your own way or move to a communist nation.



You miss the point entirely. The fact is that their choice of moving north is no choice at all if these factors are not considered. It is unjust to deny them freedom in the place on which their livelihood relies, simply because they have the option to move to a freer place where they have nothing.


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Silversoul]
    #4353561 - 06/30/05 01:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
That's bullshit. I have a right to choose whom I associate with. You don't make that decision for me. My choice to associate with people of other races and ethnicities does not obligate you to alter your behavior in any way. It does not force anything upon you, except the obligation not to initiate force. You are free to pursue you interests through persuasion or other means, but not force.



Such foul language.
In regards to the topic of this thread(not real life), I still don't understand how one persons right to associate with people trumps anothers right to disassociate with people? And I don't mean who they choose to talk to or make friends with. I mean who they are forced to be around.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353576 - 06/30/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Let's put this in real-life terms.

If people who are against living with gays want to leave and move somewhere else, then fine, let them move. Where the line has to be drawn is when these people force a segregation that would cause the gays to have to move.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353605 - 06/30/05 01:38 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
That's bullshit. I have a right to choose whom I associate with. You don't make that decision for me. My choice to associate with people of other races and ethnicities does not obligate you to alter your behavior in any way. It does not force anything upon you, except the obligation not to initiate force. You are free to pursue you interests through persuasion or other means, but not force.



Such foul language.
In regards to the topic of this thread(not real life), I still don't understand how one persons right to associate with people trumps anothers right to disassociate with people? And I don't mean who they choose to talk to or make friends with. I mean who they are forced to be around.



Forced to be around? You mean just like you're forced to be around the air and the ground and the trees? These other people exist. They have to "be around" somewhere. What right do you have to say who they can "be around"? You don't own the land. They have as much right to be on this planet as you do, and if their existence bothers you, then too fucking bad.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: Redstorm]
    #4353616 - 06/30/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Nobody is forcing anyone to move in this scenario. They would just use separate facilities. If they want to move to an integrated area, then it is their choice to move.

Just like they have gay bars now, they could have gay everything.


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Seperate But Equal [Re: daimyo]
    #4353619 - 06/30/05 01:41 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What if the gays didn't want this? What if they like living with heterosexuals? Shouldn't it be up to the heteros that for some reason can not deal with gays to either stop being babies or go elsewhere?


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