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 Phluck
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 What makes you think you're so smart? 
#4352311 - 06/29/05 07:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's not uncommon for people, especially the folks around here, to speak ill of experts.
Doctors are all shills of the pharmaceutical companies, handing out false diagnosis for profit, psychiatrists even more so. Scientists are all closed minded and completely unwilling to explore groundbreaking new fields of study, simply because they propose new ideas.
That kind of thing.
Now, it's quite clear that these critics don't have all the training and knowledge of those they are criticizing, heck, some don't even have a full high school education.
So my question is, without the full understanding of these fields, how can one be in the position to understand their faults?
The claim is sometimes made that when a scientific discovery is made that contradicts previous knowledge, it is widely ignored by the scientific community. This claim can ONLY be made by an outsider, as discoveries that contradict previous knowledge actually happen all the time, and when they come with well validated evidence, they tend to provoke all kinds of discussion and follow up studies from other scientists. Controversial ideas, which outsider critics generally believe are completely ignored, actually generate the most discussion--- when the evidence is there to justify it.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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 Icelander
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352366 - 06/29/05 08:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seems like a lot to ask. If you criticize the govt or the police or military or your teacher or your parents, how could you do that without total involvement and being trained in all those things?
IMO that would just be a way of shutting down dissent. Sometimes the uneducated know more intuitively than so called experts. Question everything! 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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freddurgan
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Icelander]
#4352395 - 06/29/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah I think that's probably the thickest question to be asked here in a long time. It really depends on the subject matter. I mean..when it comes to something like public policy, where there are no natural laws to define what works and what doesn't (to 95% of the usefulness of polticis), you can freely question what you hear.
But when it comes to people bad-mouthing science becomes the mushrooms told them so, that's a different story altogether. That's just ignorance most of the time. Sometimes people get some intersting ideas, like when it comes to the mind, or some other field where there is relatively little known due to technological limitations, but most of the time these "ideas" are just beliefs that people convince themselves are true.
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352424 - 06/29/05 08:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
It's not uncommon for people, especially the folks around here, to speak ill of experts.
Doctors are all shills of the pharmaceutical companies, handing out false diagnosis for profit, psychiatrists even more so. Scientists are all closed minded and completely unwilling to explore groundbreaking new fields of study, simply because they propose new ideas.
That kind of thing.
Now, it's quite clear that these critics don't have all the training and knowledge of those they are criticizing, heck, some don't even have a full high school education.
So my question is, without the full understanding of these fields, how can one be in the position to understand their faults?
The claim is sometimes made that when a scientific discovery is made that contradicts previous knowledge, it is widely ignored by the scientific community. This claim can ONLY be made by an outsider, as discoveries that contradict previous knowledge actually happen all the time, and when they come with well validated evidence, they tend to provoke all kinds of discussion and follow up studies from other scientists. Controversial ideas, which outsider critics generally believe are completely ignored, actually generate the most discussion--- when the evidence is there to justify it.
Though you may disagree, I tend to keep away from saying people don't know what they're talking about unless I have some "insider-knowledge."
I was thinking recently about Tom Cruise and how he said psychiatry is a crock and drugs are evil, and realized what a dumbshit he was- the researchers behind his studies support drugs for chemical imabalances ( which he denied the existence of )
Aside from that, there ARE general trends in careers because of the entry process, standards and general method. As an example, scientists are trained to memorize lots of things and not really try to make decisions. People who are bad at memorizing and are actively creative will generally be repelled from this. The analytical mind certainly has a predominance over the intuitive one in this field, and yet it is not superior.
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Le_Canard
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352428 - 06/29/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Interesting question. In my case, the more I learn, the less I realise I do know.
However, if you're looking for the answers to everything, check out these movies Hella posted in OTD.... 
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freddurgan
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4352447 - 06/29/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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What makes you think there are minds that are better suited for "analytical" as opposed to "creative". Was it environment? Maybe they just grew up to love a certain thing. Or maybe they've never tried the opposing idea.
That's a big statement right there, and both your statement and my rebuttal aren't based on facts, which plays right into this thread.
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: freddurgan]
#4352460 - 06/29/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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? Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4352513 - 06/29/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Aside from that, there ARE general trends in careers because of the entry process, standards and general method. As an example, scientists are trained to memorize lots of things and not really try to make decisions. People who are bad at memorizing and are actively creative will generally be repelled from this. The analytical mind certainly has a predominance over the intuitive one in this field, and yet it is not superior.
Well, the idea that scientists are not trained to make decisions is bullshit. Maybe in undergraduate studies, you do a lot of learning, and less actual science yourself, but without the base knowledge, creativity is useless.
A lot of fields of science are complex, there is a lot of information, and it all ties together. Without having a broad understanding, you're bound to waste time testing concepts that are already understood.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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barfightlard
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352520 - 06/29/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think I'm dumb.
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Icelander]
#4352533 - 06/29/05 08:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seems like a lot to ask. If you criticize the govt or the police or military or your teacher or your parents, how could you do that without total involvement and being trained in all those things?
Nobody is saying that you aren't allowed to do question people, but if you spend a lot of time organizing and protesting without understanding, you're bound to make a fool of yourself.
Also, being in government does not require special training, it requires the ability to be elected. Understanding genetics or partical physics is another story, I'm addressing the people who make claims about science and medicine, not things where there is no science involved, like government.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Le_Canard]
#4352537 - 06/29/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was there, man. I saw that in person.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4352561 - 06/29/05 08:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.
There are lots of people who have both creative an analytical skills. In fact, the best scientists are the ones who are able to think of creative ways of testing ideas and solving problems.
While there are certainly people who have greater skills in either direction, having good math skills doesn't make you a dull, uncreative person, or vice versa. It's not simply one way or the other.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352588 - 06/29/05 08:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, but in the base knowledge part, you are discouraged from understanding how concepts work as you are trained to take everything separately. This is useful to adhere to the scientific method, but it's like cutting the head off of it. Only the most strong-willed people will keep openminded to everything at the same time.
Quote:
A lot of fields of science are complex, there is a lot of information, and it all ties together. Without having a broad understanding, you're bound to waste time testing concepts that are already understood.
They discourage broad understanding and encourage memorization and specificity, even in the top US universities ( like Brown.. which isn't a terribly good example because it has been slipping up these past few years, but it is a major source of my knowledge )
Afterwards, prospects are not too promising. If you only have a Bachelor's ( from even the best college ), you will not be allowed to do your own research- you will be paid fairly well for doing stuff like synthesizing crystals or cloning bacteria and extracting snippets of DNA ( biochem in these cases ). If you try to go further, the competition among postgrads is at an extreme and someone doing something similar to your work WILL try to discredit you to assure their own success.
Assuming you get past all of this, which you probably won't, you will be fine tuned. You will see things so specifically, that creativity will be useless if you adhere to everything you have been trained to do. I came to know a researcher who is off to a great start ( ala front page Nature science journal ), and who is considered very creative. But I tell you- he was NOT creative from an actually creative POV.
There is a rumor, and it's a silly one perpetuated primarily by scientists- that scientists are very creative. In fact, they often do studies on artists to discredit the artist's as being creative, and this makes them look creative. As but one example, a couple of years ago a particular researcher did a number of tests and looked at Van Gogh's work; he concluded that Van Gogh had serious eyesight problems which made him actually see the patterns and weird things arounds lights and such, which he merely painted onto the canvas. If this were the case, he would have seen the same thing IN the paintings themselves; also, this is EXTREMELY ignorant of van gogh's long series of drawings and development toward integrating oriental patterns. But, most importantly- Why would you even try researching this?
one last thing
Quote:
Well, the idea that scientists are not trained to make decisions is bullshit. Maybe in undergraduate studies, you do a lot of learning, and less actual science yourself, but without the base knowledge, creativity is useless.
In a way, education is dangerous. If you accept it as truth, you are brainwashing yourself. But on the other hand, if you don't accept it, you will lack what it requires to succeed in the field. If you stress analytical analytical analytical, you lose intuition.
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352601 - 06/29/05 08:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.
There are lots of people who have both creative an analytical skills. In fact, the best scientists are the ones who are able to think of creative ways of testing ideas and solving problems.
While there are certainly people who have greater skills in either direction, having good math skills doesn't make you a dull, uncreative person, or vice versa. It's not simply one way or the other.
True, but those people are simply not the majority. After this statistic follows the way they are trained/educated- it will influence creativity/ logic, w/e.
In some rare cases, you have people who show much intuition and have very well-developed analytical skills. When these people pursue science with passion, you get people like Niels Bohr.
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Swami
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352610 - 06/29/05 08:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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What makes you think you're so smart?
Everyone tells me so. I even took a quiz on a Denny's placemat and got all the answers right.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4352721 - 06/29/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Afterwards, prospects are not too promising. If you only have a Bachelor's ( from even the best college ), you will not be allowed to do your own research- you will be paid fairly well for doing stuff like synthesizing crystals or cloning bacteria and extracting snippets of DNA ( biochem in these cases ). If you try to go further, the competition among postgrads is at an extreme and someone doing something similar to your work WILL try to discredit you to assure their own success.
What's wrong with people criticizing and finding problems with your work? Would that not teach you how to design your research to be more free of errors?
Assuming you get past all of this, which you probably won't, you will be fine tuned. You will see things so specifically, that creativity will be useless if you adhere to everything you have been trained to do.
That statement is useless without some kind of evidence to back it up. What do they do to stifle creative research? Why would creativity be useless? This is a bitter accusation, not a description of something that has actually been done wrong.
I came to know a researcher who is off to a great start ( ala front page Nature science journal ), and who is considered very creative. But I tell you- he was NOT creative from an actually creative POV.
You've mentioned this guy before (grudge, anyone?). Why was he considered creative, and why did you consider him not to be creative? Also, what's an "actually creative POV", is that how you see yourself?
There is a rumor, and it's a silly one perpetuated primarily by scientists- that scientists are very creative. In fact, they often do studies on artists to discredit the artist's as being creative, and this makes them look creative.
You've got to be kidding. It seems like you taken you one, single following example, and used it to make a vast generalization about all scientists... well, that's creative if nothing else.
As but one example, a couple of years ago a particular researcher did a number of tests and looked at Van Gogh's work; he concluded that Van Gogh had serious eyesight problems which made him actually see the patterns and weird things arounds lights and such, which he merely painted onto the canvas. If this were the case, he would have seen the same thing IN the paintings themselves; also, this is EXTREMELY ignorant of van gogh's long series of drawings and development toward integrating oriental patterns. But, most importantly- Why would you even try researching this?
But one example indeed--- and to answer your question as to why he would try researching this... MAYBE IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE NUMEROUS LETTERS IN WHICH VAN GOGH SPOKE OF HIS EYE PROBLEMS!
http://webexhibits.org/query-gogh.spy?qp=health.eyes
Anyways, that's not even really research, that's a theory based on two things, 1) The fact that Van Gogh's eyes were failing him. 2) Impressionism resembles blurred reality. This by no means discredits Van Gogh in any way, his paintings are obviously quite a bit more interesting than simple blurry photographs.
The idea that his failing eyesight may have provided a degree of inspiration by no means discredits anything he did... and being nearsighted means that things that are far away (ie. a landscape) would look blurry while things close up (ie. a painting you were working on) would not. So your argument about the validity of the Van Gogh theory makes no sense whatsoever.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352808 - 06/29/05 09:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Too much shit to quote, but ill start backwards.
He was not suggesting nearsightedness or anything of the sort, more along the lines of some obscure disease that makes everything have spirals.
Quote:
You've got to be kidding. It seems like you taken you one, single following example, and used it to make a vast generalization about all scientists... well, that's creative if nothing else.
? No. I should point out that much of what I understand was explained and taught to me by my sister. Am I supposed to write down the history of each argument? I gave one example. I met numerous scientists and talked with them at length; and I am not speaking from just my own experience.
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You've mentioned this guy before (grudge, anyone?). Why was he considered creative, and why did you consider him not to be creative? Also, what's an "actually creative POV", is that how you see yourself?
Grudge? Hardly. I wish him well, even if he was a bit slow. I did not consider him to be creative because he was incapable of finding new problems in anything ( which I find to be a key point in creativity ), he admitted the problem himself but never fixed it. Solving problems is not creativity ( he was good at solving problems once they existed ). And no, I'm not so arrogant as to use my own creativity as a base for arguing off of. Basically, everyone who knew him knew he was very lacking in the creativity department ( except for his co-worker friends ).
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That statement is useless without some kind of evidence to back it up. What do they do to stifle creative research? Why would creativity be useless? This is a bitter accusation, not a description of something that has actually been done wrong.
bitter accusation? Where do you have room for creativity if you've always been taught to ignore it? The currently established way of science education is simply not conducive to creativity. Seeing as how you'd be around 30 something once you become a full researcher and the brain fully develops by then, there is very, very little room to open the box and apply what you've learned.
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What's wrong with people criticizing and finding problems with your work? Would that not teach you how to design your research to be more free of errors?
No nono, by discredit I don't mean review. I mean maliciously lie about your work in order to make other people think you're doing everything wrong. I mean really, it's just accepted as commonplace competition and ignored, even though it is by no means good-hearted.
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352888 - 06/29/05 09:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh and impressionism doesn't resemble blurred reality, not to mention van gogh is NOTHING like blurred reality and was not an impressionist, he was an expressionist, or post-impressionist if you must.
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Ravus
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4352921 - 06/29/05 09:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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What makes them superior to me?
I may not have the same piece of paper from a college that they do, but I can research the topic through books, through the internet, through their own research papers. I don't need a Dr. in front of my name to realize the same knowledge as a doctor does (not that I do, but if someone was ambitious enough, the knowledge is all there).
That's the beauty of the modern day; information is at our fingertips, so we no longer have to just put all our faith in the "authority" on the matter.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4352939 - 06/29/05 09:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh and impressionism doesn't resemble blurred reality
Well, Monet and Pissarro are definitely impressionists, and these impressionist paintings certainly look kinda like blurred reality to me.
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/monet/first/monet.coquelicots.jpg
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/pissarro/hoarfrost.jpg
Kinda like a general impression of reality... or what you get if you squint and blur your vision, no?
not to mention van gogh is NOTHING like blurred reality
Well, says you, nitpicking. But he does actually, only with a certain flair of pattern and detail added in. Kinda like if you used photoshop to blur, then resharpen an image.
Take a look for yourself:
http://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/bisrd/top-1-1.html
You were right, he's not considered an impressionist, but it hardly takes any creativity at all to imagine the resemblance to blurriness.
Either way, none of this has anything to do with the actual point, you're just nitpicking and backtracking.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Ravus]
#4352991 - 06/29/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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What makes them superior to me?
Nothing. They do, however, have proof that they've been trained in how to do research, know what kinds of errors are commonly made, and they've had other people who have proven themselves there to ensure that they didn't screw up or bullshit their way through. Of course, this has nothing to do with my initial post in this thread.
There are TONS of people who make claims about the errors of the experts, and they might even do a little bit of research themselves, but they could have easily misunderstood everything they read.
I'm not comparing people who have done actual research on their own to those with a title proving that they have. If someone does the proper research on their own, and is able to demonstrate that their theories are valid, either through proper testing or well worked out mathematical reasoning, they could easily call up someone who is a credited authority, show their work, and have it presented in a forum where it would be reasonably considered.
The people I'm criticizing do not do that. They come up with theories, have them discredited, and then claim that this is the result of closed mindedness on the part of the authorities.
I'm criticizing the people who do not do all the research on their own, they might read an article in popular mechanics that explains something in laymans terms and think they know all they need to invent the next theory of relativity.
These people are all over the internet.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4353008 - 06/29/05 09:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd disagree. It may not be the most "naturalistic", but I'd argue it's most like reality if you include psychology and optics. I mean, photographs are definately nothing like the reality we experience, and yet most people who never looked into the matter further think so.
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Well, says you, nitpicking. But he does actually, only with a certain flair of pattern and detail added in. Kinda like if you used photoshop to blur, then resharpen an image.
Oof. There's tons of fundamental things you're suggesting that I'd argue against, but i'll just say that he's not "adding" anything in. He isn't taking a photograph and editing it- he is creating a psychologically interesting perception of the world and using pattern as energy- his brushstrokes are extremely well controlled so as to influence the viewer-- online photos are shit compared to seeing a Van Gogh in person. You see photos, and you're like "meh. ," but if you see one in person it's just like "..Wow.". In short, the patterns had everything to do with manipulating the medium.
Ok sorry sometimes I get caught up in these things. I'm not nitpicking to backtrack, I'm nitpicking because this genuinely interests me. I could argue for hours and hours about Van Gogh ( and many others ) and can hardly control myself. Sorry. Ahem.
As to the point- Van Gogh was extremely creative and manipulated the medium separately from the subject matter, but still pulled off many psychologically moving and expressive pieces. Scientists saying he was just painting what he saw are RETARDS. They fail to see medium as part of the art, which, of course, would disregard all modern art as art.
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You were right, he's not considered an impressionist, but it hardly takes any creativity at all to imagine the resemblance to blurriness.
Exactly. Which is actually the opposite of you wanted to argue to keep your argument consistent...
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Le_Canard
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4353086 - 06/29/05 10:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
I was there, man. I saw that in person.
Not to go off on a tangent here (but I suppose I am anyway )
Sounds like y'all had a great time! And, for the record, I wasn't disparaging anyone there. I've had some earth shattering revelations whilst I was chemically enhanced too, but then I sobered up..... 
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vampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4353113 - 06/29/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
The people I'm criticizing do not do that. They come up with theories, have them discredited, and then claim that this is the result of closed mindedness on the part of the authorities.
I'm criticizing the people who do not do all the research on their own, they might read an article in popular mechanics that explains something in laymans terms and think they know all they need to invent the next theory of relativity.
These people are all over the internet.
oh nevermind. I just like criticizing scientists for being taught things ( far ) too analytically.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4353161 - 06/29/05 10:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Scientists saying he was just painting what he saw are RETARDS. They fail to see medium as part of the art, which, of course, would disregard all modern art as art.
Only they don't exist, nobody would be so stupid as to think there was some kind of eye damage that made you see Van Gogh paintings all the time.
Nobody is saying he painted exactly what he saw. I seriously doubt the guy who came up with the theory said that he didn't think there was any creativity involved. Maybe you could find a source that states otherwise, but this seems like a complete straw man to me.
Vision problems aren't going to influence anything about composition, and they aren't going to give you the skills to translate what you see into a Van Gogh painting. You definitely need some next level skills to make a painting truly psychologically interesting, which is WAY better than regular interesting.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4353219 - 06/29/05 10:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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well, he thought the technique and specific way of manipulating the medium had nothing to do with creativity. So the composition and all that was just seen as simple and purposeful.
Also, regardless of the skill, Van Gogh was unique. I don't know what you think, but most people think it's skill that makes art good. It's actually more of a mental thing than experience or skill; van gogh's extreme feeling is what forced him to devote the entirety of his being to art.
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4353313 - 06/29/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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well, he thought the technique and specific way of manipulating the medium had nothing to do with creativity.
I really don't think he did. Do you have a source?
Also, regardless of the skill, Van Gogh was unique. I don't know what you think, but most people think it's skill that makes art good. It's actually more of a mental thing than experience or skill;
Yeah, the idea that there's more to art than technical skill is only known to a secret cabal of the artistic elite known as art school graduates.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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theoldtimer
old enough toknow better
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Hell and back
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354008 - 06/30/05 01:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be a "doctor" in and of itself means to be "indoctrinated". It would seem to me that only an "outsider" could make an unbiased opinion, one based on more than the facts they are feed by the so called "experts".
What you say rings so true.
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." A.E.
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Phluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: theoldtimer]
#4354478 - 06/30/05 06:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be a "doctor" in and of itself means to be "indoctrinated". It would seem to me that only an "outsider" could make an unbiased opinion, one based on more than the facts they are feed by the so called "experts".
Have you ever gone through all the training required to be an MD or PhD? Has anyone close to you?
Do you have first hand knowledge of the bias you accuse them of, of is this merely an assumption?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354518 - 06/30/05 07:07 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeah, the idea that there's more to art than technical skill is only known to a secret cabal of the artistic elite known as art school graduates.
?
you'd be amazed how many people think it's just technical skill...
as for the link, i can't link you because it wasn't online.
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354536 - 06/30/05 07:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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criticism of the scientific community usually arises from ignorance of the scientific method. i work in the scientific community, and trust me, there is no bullshitting or messing around. the experiments that contradict current beliefs are the most important ones - these are the experiments from which new understanding is gained. almost everything we know is a result of experiments which didn't show what they were expected to.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: alsey]
#4354555 - 06/30/05 07:31 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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i work in the scientific community, and trust me, there is no bullshitting or messing around.
I've worked in the scientific community and in my area there is alot of bullshit and fudging of results. Most scientific journals will not publish a paper that finds no difference in the variables tested, and so when you spend thousands of dollars on an experiment and fail to find a difference in what you're testing, the temptation is to fudge the results a little to get your paper published. This happens all the time in ecology where the environment isn't static, and so one can get away with fudging results.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: ninjapixie]
#4354564 - 06/30/05 07:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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No doubt. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4354585 - 06/30/05 07:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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you'd be amazed how many people think it's just technical skill...
Sure, there are lots of idiots out there, but the only people who think it's only technical skill are those completely unfamiliar with art in any manner.
as for the link, i can't link you because it wasn't online.
Everything is online, dude.
Google knows all. The book is called "The World Through Blunted Sight.", and it is by Patrick Trevor-Roper.
The idea that art is created entirely by marvellous super-emotional beings, and that all of their creations are the result of a new level of creativity and imagination is very romanticized. To say that the lens through which we see the world won't shape the way we reflect it back makes no sense whatsoever.
This guy agrees with you:
http://www.studiolo.org/Email/VANGOGH.htm
But he misses the point as well. He seems to think that by looking for signs of optical distortion in paintings, we overlook the fact that painters aren't going for perfect realism.
He seems to believe that painters paint only exactly what they want to create. That they are consistantly aware of what influences their ideas and what they want to create ignores the existance of the subconcious and of external effects on our reality.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: ninjapixie]
#4354591 - 06/30/05 07:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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This happens all the time in ecology where the environment isn't static, and so one can get away with fudging results.
Why don't you go public? How could you work in a lab where evidence is being faked without being outraged enough to let it be known what is going on?
Sure there are examples out there of results being faked, and flawed experiments, but that's what things like doing studies that attempt to reproduce previous results, and peer review are there for.
No human beings are perfect, but there are safeguards in place to deal with forgery in science, and they are put to good use.
Unless there are people who sit around watching this stuff happen, but don't give a shit enough to do anything about the problem. These people might as well be forging results themselves.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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mikeytwice
Wanderer
Registered: 06/21/05
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: alsey]
#4354593 - 06/30/05 07:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was thinking about this sort of thing yesterday morning, actually. Part of my head is wrapped up in an academic environment, and I was mulling on how people tend to mistrust scholars, doctors, and scientists *because* they are experts - often with the crticism that experts often suffer from a mental tunnel vision.
I think that this criticism is valid to an extent but shouldn't be taken to far. Plenty of doctors are idiots - I've had to deal with them. Doctors disagree with each other all the time, which is why, when suffering from a serious condition, you're urged to get a second opinion. It's possible to trust doctors in general and mistrust doctors individually - or vice versa, whatever you want. But, they are well studied, and some doctors or what have you - such as specialists - are good at what they do.
Though I believe that most fields of study move in the direction of greater knowledge, inherent in the fact that there is always progress to be made is the existence of a current deficiency. So again, you can have faith in the overall process of science but have issues with certain aspects of it. Within the scientific community as well as any discipline, there are plenty of ego- and idea-wars. Overall, though, I think that the theories that persist stand on their own because they work in a given context. As the context changes and/or the theory is supreceded by a new one, then it will fade into the background.
Perhaps however criticisms of the established science are valid to an extent. There are plenty of scientists who are upset with the established ideas. I'd hope, however, that they are able to support their theories well enough for them to stand up in the face of adversity. I'm sure the occasional great one is crushed by circumstantial forces - perhaps some researchers just buckle. Or, in the case of the U.S., perhaps certain researchers are prevented from conducting studies (as is often the case when studying drugs).
I'll tell you what, though: Some scientists think because they are well-informed about a specific field, they know everything about everything. My roommate was a Materials Science PhD - smart as shit, got a 1600 on his SATs - but when it came to understanding people or day to day things, he often grossly misevaluated situations but thought he was Top Shit because of his intelligence. I think some prejudice against scientists and doctors stems from those of them who do things like this. I have no idea if that is the majority, but, "a piece of shit ruins the wedding cake," as they say.
P.S. The people at "supplement" stores who wear white lab coats are the best scientists in the world.
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vampirism
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354602 - 06/30/05 08:03 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I didn't really say that. In Van Gogh's case, I will agree because just looking at the progression of his life's work as it coincided with his interests shows that he didn't have serious problems with his eyes.
Quote:
But he misses the point as well. He seems to think that by looking for signs of optical distortion in paintings, we overlook the fact that painters aren't going for perfect realism.
He seems to believe that painters paint only exactly what they want to create. That they are consistantly aware of what influences their ideas and what they want to create ignores the existance of the subconcious and of external effects on our reality.
Regardless of whether or not it is true, it is how you need to treat art + artists to be fair. Looking for optical distortion is a dead end- even if someone DOES have the problem, you still have no proof that they didn't either utilize it to their advantage or learn to cope with it. I mean, I don't see anyone looking for optical distortions in the artists of supperrealism, why not?
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354618 - 06/30/05 08:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why don't you go public? How could you work in a lab where evidence is being faked without being outraged enough to let it be known what is going on?
Everyone in the ecology industry knows there's likely to be some fudging of results, and so all journals are approached with caution. Some journals are so experimentally flawed you wonder how they got published.
The problem is when dealing with the environment, the results you get one day will almost certaily be different to the ones you get the next, despite following the exact same procedure . Therefore the results can't be proven wrong.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4354644 - 06/30/05 08:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Looking for optical distortion is a dead end- even if someone DOES have the problem, you still have no proof that they didn't either utilize it to their advantage or learn to cope with it.
That's the whole point that the guy is trying to make... that his eye problems (which Van Gogh himself wrote about) helped to inspire his new artistic ideas.
Nobody is saying that they didn't work to his advantage, or that there is something wrong with his paintings because of it.
I mean, I don't see anyone looking for optical distortions in the artists of supperrealism, why not?
Probably because the idea was inspired by the actual accounts, by Van Gogh himself, of his optical problems.
Also, because, maybe it's a valid point about Van Gogh, but an illogical one if you try to make it about superrealism. Doie.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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vampirism
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4354659 - 06/30/05 08:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, because, maybe it's a valid point about Van Gogh, but an illogical one if you try to make it about superrealism. Doie.
Not really. Are we critiquing the artist or the art? I'm sure tons of supperrealists have eye problems; they do their work from lots of photographs. Perhaps their eye problems inspired their work?
Quote:
Nobody is saying that they didn't work to his advantage, or that there is something wrong with his paintings because of it.
If his eye problems caused his work, which they didn't, then it means he wasn't a very good artist after all. I just don't understand the purpose of researching this. It accomplishes nothing; ok great, sometimes he was inspired by eye problems. I think it's obvious that you'd be inspired by something you experience, whatever it is.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
#4354694 - 06/30/05 08:49 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not really. Are we critiquing the artist or the art? I'm sure tons of supperrealists have eye problems; they do their work from lots of photographs. Perhaps their eye problems inspired their work?
Perhaps you don't understand where the comparison comes from with Van Gogh's art. His art contains themes consistant with certain optical disorders, including halos around lights, certain shades of color (and don't try to tell me that the colors would look the same when he was painting them, you obviously are aware that artists will exagerrate certain hues to create an effect http://www.psych.ucalgary.ca/PACE/VA-Lab/AVDE-Website/xanthopsia.html).
Unless you have some observations about superrealism that can be correlated to certain optical disorders, then I'm not sure how that can be a fair comparison.
If his eye problems caused his work, which they didn't, then it means he wasn't a very good artist after all.
We're going in circles here. I already told you that nobody thinks his vision problems were the sole cause of his style.
I just don't understand the purpose of researching this. It accomplishes nothing; ok great, sometimes he was inspired by eye problems. I think it's obvious that you'd be inspired by something you experience, whatever it is.
Well, I don't think people really spent a whole lot of time researching it, it's really a guy who wrote a book. Why? Probably because he found the idea interesting, if it bores you, don't read the book.
A lot of historical research doesn't have practical applications, but people do it because they are interested in what motivates people, and the stories of the past. This is all that this is, historical speculation. It might not interest you, but complaining about people researching things that you don't find interesting seems really pointless to me.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: alsey]
#4354774 - 06/30/05 09:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
alsey said:
the experiments that contradict current beliefs are the most important ones - these are the experiments from which new understanding is gained.
I mostly agree with this notion but there is bullshitting in science. Science is an instrument of knowledge, like any instrument of this kind, it is often corrupted and controlled by power.
Today, Science is politicized, it is attached to the capitalist system and its financial contribution. One clear example are the free energy sources and the lack of will to actually revolutionize the situation.
Another good example is the "Nikola Tesla versus Einstein" issue. The acceptance of Einstein theory of general relativity over Tesla dynamic theory of gravity, is an example of science politicization.
Politics+Science=Bullshit
Regarding creativity. Well, creativity is not a word bound only to art, creativity is the ability to create, in a unique sense. That can be made on any realm of human action, be it with art, science, philosophy, engineering, even the guy living on the street can be creative  .
MAIA
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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: MAIA]
#4354816 - 06/30/05 09:46 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree MAIA. I know some very creative people without formal education past high school. So it goes both ways.
Money rules these days.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: mikeytwice]
#4355656 - 06/30/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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P.S. The people at "supplement" stores who wear white lab coats are the best scientists in the world.
__________________________________________________________________
I don't know if you are kidding here or not. I'm one of those guys so I can speak about this. As flattering as you statement is, No we aren't. Where I work we do have some very good people with a lot of knowledge. One of the guys I work with is VERY sharp and knows lots. But we just study,studies, draw conclusions as best we can and act as a resource, WITH A BIAS, just like the medical profession has a bias. I think both have a lot to offer and if it wasn't all about money some real co-operation could happen to the benefit of all. As it is, IMO both groups are in trouble, because money and egoic control are at stake. Human nature I'm afraid.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 20 days
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: ninjapixie]
#4358513 - 07/01/05 04:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
ninjapixie said:
I've worked in the scientific community and in my area there is alot of bullshit and fudging of results. Most scientific journals will not publish a paper that finds no difference in the variables tested, and so when you spend thousands of dollars on an experiment and fail to find a difference in what you're testing, the temptation is to fudge the results a little to get your paper published. This happens all the time in ecology where the environment isn't static, and so one can get away with fudging results.
ok fair enough, but in the field i work in (physics) it is very difficult to fudge results. if your experiment does show something different to what is expected, others will repeat it, and if the people who repeat it get different results, then you appear either as a cheater or a shit scientist.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 20 days
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: MAIA]
#4358519 - 07/01/05 04:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MAIA said:
Today, Science is politicized, it is attached to the capitalist system and its financial contribution. One clear example are the free energy sources and the lack of will to actually revolutionize the situation.
that is true, but the financial and the political only restrics what can be done, it does not somehow detract from the validity of what is done.
Quote:
Another good example is the "Nikola Tesla versus Einstein" issue. The acceptance of Einstein theory of general relativity over Tesla dynamic theory of gravity, is an example of science politicization.
no, its an example of logical reasoning. GR is a more logical theory than tesla's. tesla never actually produced a fully fledged theory. all he did was point out apparent holes in GR. if he had actually come up with a complete, working theory and published it, then maybe it might have stood a better chance.
again, maybe my field is not representative of the entire scientific community.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
#4358529 - 07/01/05 04:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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What makes you think you're so smart?
well it certainly is not the money.
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