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OfflinePhluck
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What makes you think you're so smart?
    #4352311 - 06/29/05 09:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

It's not uncommon for people, especially the folks around here, to speak ill of experts.

Doctors are all shills of the pharmaceutical companies, handing out false diagnosis for profit, psychiatrists even more so. Scientists are all closed minded and completely unwilling to explore groundbreaking new fields of study, simply because they propose new ideas.

That kind of thing.

Now, it's quite clear that these critics don't have all the training and knowledge of those they are criticizing, heck, some don't even have a full high school education.

So my question is, without the full understanding of these fields, how can one be in the position to understand their faults?

The claim is sometimes made that when a scientific discovery is made that contradicts previous knowledge, it is widely ignored by the scientific community. This claim can ONLY be made by an outsider, as discoveries that contradict previous knowledge actually happen all the time, and when they come with well validated evidence, they tend to provoke all kinds of discussion and follow up studies from other scientists. Controversial ideas, which outsider critics generally believe are completely ignored, actually generate the most discussion--- when the evidence is there to justify it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352366 - 06/29/05 10:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Seems like a lot to ask. If you criticize the govt or the police or military or your teacher or your parents, how could you do that without total involvement and being trained in all those things?

IMO that  would just be a way of shutting down dissent. Sometimes the uneducated know more intuitively than so called experts. Question everything! :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Icelander]
    #4352395 - 06/29/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I think that's probably the thickest question to be asked here in a long time. It really depends on the subject matter. I mean..when it comes to something like public policy, where there are no natural laws to define what works and what doesn't (to 95% of the usefulness of polticis), you can freely question what you hear.

But when it comes to people bad-mouthing science becomes the mushrooms told them so, that's a different story altogether. That's just ignorance most of the time. Sometimes people get some intersting ideas, like when it comes to the mind, or some other field where there is relatively little known due to technological limitations, but most of the time these "ideas" are just beliefs that people convince themselves are true.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352424 - 06/29/05 10:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
It's not uncommon for people, especially the folks around here, to speak ill of experts.

Doctors are all shills of the pharmaceutical companies, handing out false diagnosis for profit, psychiatrists even more so. Scientists are all closed minded and completely unwilling to explore groundbreaking new fields of study, simply because they propose new ideas.

That kind of thing.

Now, it's quite clear that these critics don't have all the training and knowledge of those they are criticizing, heck, some don't even have a full high school education.

So my question is, without the full understanding of these fields, how can one be in the position to understand their faults?

The claim is sometimes made that when a scientific discovery is made that contradicts previous knowledge, it is widely ignored by the scientific community. This claim can ONLY be made by an outsider, as discoveries that contradict previous knowledge actually happen all the time, and when they come with well validated evidence, they tend to provoke all kinds of discussion and follow up studies from other scientists. Controversial ideas, which outsider critics generally believe are completely ignored, actually generate the most discussion--- when the evidence is there to justify it.




Though you may disagree, I tend to keep away from saying people don't know what they're talking about unless I have some "insider-knowledge."


I was thinking recently about Tom Cruise and how he said psychiatry is a crock and drugs are evil, and realized what a dumbshit he was- the researchers behind his studies support drugs for chemical imabalances ( which he denied the existence of )


Aside from that, there ARE general trends in careers because of the entry process, standards and general method. As an example, scientists are trained to memorize lots of things and not really try to make decisions. People who are bad at memorizing and are actively creative will generally be repelled from this. The analytical mind certainly has a predominance over the intuitive one in this field, and yet it is not superior.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352428 - 06/29/05 10:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting question. In my case, the more I learn, the less I realise I do know.
However, if you're looking for the answers to everything, check out these movies Hella posted in OTD.... :grin:


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
    #4352447 - 06/29/05 10:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What makes you think there are minds that are better suited for "analytical" as opposed to "creative". Was it environment? Maybe they just grew up to love a certain thing. Or maybe they've never tried the opposing idea.

That's a big statement right there, and both your statement and my rebuttal aren't based on facts, which plays right into this thread.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4352460 - 06/29/05 10:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

? Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
    #4352513 - 06/29/05 10:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Aside from that, there ARE general trends in careers because of the entry process, standards and general method. As an example, scientists are trained to memorize lots of things and not really try to make decisions. People who are bad at memorizing and are actively creative will generally be repelled from this. The analytical mind certainly has a predominance over the intuitive one in this field, and yet it is not superior.

Well, the idea that scientists are not trained to make decisions is bullshit. Maybe in undergraduate studies, you do a lot of learning, and less actual science yourself, but without the base knowledge, creativity is useless.

A lot of fields of science are complex, there is a lot of information, and it all ties together. Without having a broad understanding, you're bound to waste time testing concepts that are already understood.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352520 - 06/29/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think I'm dumb.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Icelander]
    #4352533 - 06/29/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Seems like a lot to ask. If you criticize the govt or the police or military or your teacher or your parents, how could you do that without total involvement and being trained in all those things?

Nobody is saying that you aren't allowed to do question people, but if you spend a lot of time organizing and protesting without understanding, you're bound to make a fool of yourself.

Also, being in government does not require special training, it requires the ability to be elected. Understanding genetics or partical physics is another story, I'm addressing the people who make claims about science and medicine, not things where there is no science involved, like government.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4352537 - 06/29/05 10:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I was there, man. I saw that in person.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
    #4352561 - 06/29/05 10:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.

There are lots of people who have both creative an analytical skills. In fact, the best scientists are the ones who are able to think of creative ways of testing ideas and solving problems.

While there are certainly people who have greater skills in either direction, having good math skills doesn't make you a dull, uncreative person, or vice versa. It's not simply one way or the other.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352588 - 06/29/05 10:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, but in the base knowledge part, you are discouraged from understanding how concepts work as you are trained to take everything separately. This is useful to adhere to the scientific method, but it's like cutting the head off of it. Only the most strong-willed people will keep openminded to everything at the same time.

Quote:


A lot of fields of science are complex, there is a lot of information, and it all ties together. Without having a broad understanding, you're bound to waste time testing concepts that are already understood.



They discourage broad understanding and encourage memorization and specificity, even in the top US universities ( like Brown.. which isn't a terribly good example because it has been slipping up these past few years, but it is a major source of my knowledge )



Afterwards, prospects are not too promising. If you only have a Bachelor's ( from even the best college ), you will not be allowed to do your own research- you will be paid fairly well for doing stuff like synthesizing crystals or cloning bacteria and extracting snippets of DNA ( biochem in these cases ). If you try to go further, the competition among postgrads is at an extreme and someone doing something similar to your work WILL try to discredit you to assure their own success.

Assuming you get past all of this, which you probably won't, you will be fine tuned. You will see things so specifically, that creativity will be useless if you adhere to everything you have been trained to do. I came to know a researcher who is off to a great start ( ala front page Nature science journal ), and who is considered very creative. But I tell you- he was NOT creative from an actually creative POV.


There is a rumor, and it's a silly one perpetuated primarily by scientists- that scientists are very creative. In fact, they often do studies on artists to discredit the artist's as being creative, and this makes them look creative. As but one example, a couple of years ago a particular researcher did a number of tests and looked at Van Gogh's work; he concluded that Van Gogh had serious eyesight problems which made him actually see the patterns and weird things arounds lights and such, which he merely painted onto the canvas. If this were the case, he would have seen the same thing IN the paintings themselves; also, this is EXTREMELY ignorant of van gogh's long series of drawings and development toward integrating oriental patterns. But, most importantly- Why would you even try researching this?



one last thing
Quote:


Well, the idea that scientists are not trained to make decisions is bullshit. Maybe in undergraduate studies, you do a lot of learning, and less actual science yourself, but without the base knowledge, creativity is useless.




In a way, education is dangerous. If you accept it as truth, you are brainwashing yourself. But on the other hand, if you don't accept it, you will lack what it requires to succeed in the field. If you stress analytical analytical analytical, you lose intuition.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352601 - 06/29/05 10:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Because of right/left brain hemisphere dominance. One side of the brain is intuitive and the other anayltical. Creativity is not analytical.

There are lots of people who have both creative an analytical skills. In fact, the best scientists are the ones who are able to think of creative ways of testing ideas and solving problems.

While there are certainly people who have greater skills in either direction, having good math skills doesn't make you a dull, uncreative person, or vice versa. It's not simply one way or the other.





True, but those people are simply not the majority. After this statistic follows the way they are trained/educated- it will influence creativity/ logic, w/e.

In some rare cases, you have people who show much intuition and have very well-developed analytical skills. When these people pursue science with passion, you get people like Niels Bohr.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352610 - 06/29/05 10:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What makes you think you're so smart?

Everyone tells me so. I even took a quiz on a Denny's placemat and got all the answers right.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
    #4352721 - 06/29/05 11:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Afterwards, prospects are not too promising. If you only have a Bachelor's ( from even the best college ), you will not be allowed to do your own research- you will be paid fairly well for doing stuff like synthesizing crystals or cloning bacteria and extracting snippets of DNA ( biochem in these cases ). If you try to go further, the competition among postgrads is at an extreme and someone doing something similar to your work WILL try to discredit you to assure their own success.

What's wrong with people criticizing and finding problems with your work? Would that not teach you how to design your research to be more free of errors?

Assuming you get past all of this, which you probably won't, you will be fine tuned. You will see things so specifically, that creativity will be useless if you adhere to everything you have been trained to do.

That statement is useless without some kind of evidence to back it up. What do they do to stifle creative research? Why would creativity be useless? This is a bitter accusation, not a description of something that has actually been done wrong.

I came to know a researcher who is off to a great start ( ala front page Nature science journal ), and who is considered very creative. But I tell you- he was NOT creative from an actually creative POV.

You've mentioned this guy before (grudge, anyone?). Why was he considered creative, and why did you consider him not to be creative? Also, what's an "actually creative POV", is that how you see yourself?

There is a rumor, and it's a silly one perpetuated primarily by scientists- that scientists are very creative. In fact, they often do studies on artists to discredit the artist's as being creative, and this makes them look creative.

You've got to be kidding. It seems like you taken you one, single following example, and used it to make a vast generalization about all scientists... well, that's creative if nothing else.

As but one example, a couple of years ago a particular researcher did a number of tests and looked at Van Gogh's work; he concluded that Van Gogh had serious eyesight problems which made him actually see the patterns and weird things arounds lights and such, which he merely painted onto the canvas. If this were the case, he would have seen the same thing IN the paintings themselves; also, this is EXTREMELY ignorant of van gogh's long series of drawings and development toward integrating oriental patterns. But, most importantly- Why would you even try researching this?

But one example indeed--- and to answer your question as to why he would try researching this... MAYBE IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE NUMEROUS LETTERS IN WHICH VAN GOGH SPOKE OF HIS EYE PROBLEMS!


http://webexhibits.org/query-gogh.spy?qp=health.eyes

Anyways, that's not even really research, that's a theory based on two things, 1) The fact that Van Gogh's eyes were failing him. 2) Impressionism resembles blurred reality. This by no means discredits Van Gogh in any way, his paintings are obviously quite a bit more interesting than simple blurry photographs.

The idea that his failing eyesight may have provided a degree of inspiration by no means discredits anything he did... and being nearsighted means that things that are far away (ie. a landscape) would look blurry while things close up (ie. a painting you were working on) would not. So your argument about the validity of the Van Gogh theory makes no sense whatsoever.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352808 - 06/29/05 11:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Too much shit to quote, but ill start backwards.

He was not suggesting nearsightedness or anything of the sort, more along the lines of some obscure disease that makes everything have spirals.

Quote:



You've got to be kidding. It seems like you taken you one, single following example, and used it to make a vast generalization about all scientists... well, that's creative if nothing else.



? No. I should point out that much of what I understand was explained and taught to me by my sister. Am I supposed to write down the history of each argument? I gave one example. I met numerous scientists and talked with them at length; and I am not speaking from just my own experience.

Quote:



You've mentioned this guy before (grudge, anyone?). Why was he considered creative, and why did you consider him not to be creative? Also, what's an "actually creative POV", is that how you see yourself?



Grudge? Hardly. I wish him well, even if he was a bit slow. I did not consider him to be creative because he was incapable of finding new problems in anything ( which I find to be a key point in creativity ), he admitted the problem himself but never fixed it. Solving problems is not creativity ( he was good at solving problems once they existed ). And no, I'm not so arrogant as to use my own creativity as a base for arguing off of. Basically, everyone who knew him knew he was very lacking in the creativity department ( except for his co-worker friends ).

Quote:


That statement is useless without some kind of evidence to back it up. What do they do to stifle creative research? Why would creativity be useless? This is a bitter accusation, not a description of something that has actually been done wrong.




bitter accusation? Where do you have room for creativity if you've always been taught to ignore it? The currently established way of science education is simply not conducive to creativity. Seeing as how you'd be around 30 something once you become a full researcher and the brain fully develops by then, there is very, very little room to open the box and apply what you've learned.


Quote:


What's wrong with people criticizing and finding problems with your work? Would that not teach you how to design your research to be more free of errors?



No nono, by discredit I don't mean review. I mean maliciously lie about your work in order to make other people think you're doing everything wrong. I mean really, it's just accepted as commonplace competition and ignored, even though it is by no means good-hearted.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352888 - 06/29/05 11:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

oh and impressionism doesn't resemble blurred reality, not to mention van gogh is NOTHING like blurred reality and was not an impressionist, he was an expressionist, or post-impressionist if you must.


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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: Phluck]
    #4352921 - 06/29/05 11:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What makes them superior to me?

I may not have the same piece of paper from a college that they do, but I can research the topic through books, through the internet, through their own research papers. I don't need a Dr. in front of my name to realize the same knowledge as a doctor does (not that I do, but if someone was ambitious enough, the knowledge is all there).

That's the beauty of the modern day; information is at our fingertips, so we no longer have to just put all our faith in the "authority" on the matter.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What makes you think you're so smart? [Re: vampirism]
    #4352939 - 06/29/05 11:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

oh and impressionism doesn't resemble blurred reality

Well, Monet and Pissarro are definitely impressionists, and these impressionist paintings certainly look kinda like blurred reality to me.

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/monet/first/monet.coquelicots.jpg
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/pissarro/hoarfrost.jpg

Kinda like a general impression of reality... or what you get if you squint and blur your vision, no?

not to mention van gogh is NOTHING like blurred reality

Well, says you, nitpicking. But he does actually, only with a certain flair of pattern and detail added in. Kinda like if you used photoshop to blur, then resharpen an image.

Take a look for yourself:
http://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/bisrd/top-1-1.html

You were right, he's not considered an impressionist, but it hardly takes any creativity at all to imagine the resemblance to blurriness.

Either way, none of this has anything to do with the actual point, you're just nitpicking and backtracking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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