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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Something For Nothing
    #435105 - 10/24/01 07:49 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

I was curious, what makes people think that they have a right to things that they can't afford? ie: A harvard education, Private schooling etc. If they do happen to make it to one of these facilities through one means or another, why do they expect others to pay for it? And what gives them that right?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435376 - 10/24/01 01:41 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

why should money be the only factor in determining a persons right to an education?

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Lenore]
    #435382 - 10/24/01 01:49 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

****why should money be the only factor in determining a persons right to an education? ****

it's called capitalism........

What makes you think that you have a right to go to a private school or University?

remember public education is still education..and if you really want to go to a university but can't afford it you better make sure you earn a grant or scholarship through scholastic accomplishments....if you're an idiot in school and can't afford it, you have no right to be put into college because you think you have that right


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435395 - 10/24/01 02:02 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

Far from private schooling, the system of education which promotes those with money over those without is irrational. Money does not equal intelligence, nor should it equal the power that comes with higher education.
Education should be a right for all humans.
If we spent even a fraction of the money we do on the Military on public education everyone in America could recieve a chance.
If education is to be held in the hands of the elite, than it is not education, it is a diploma in Power and Privledge.
Your view on education lies entirley within the realm of the Capitalist Philosophy, the human mind, all human minds should be able to transcend this universe of discourse.

reclaim your minds from capitalism.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Lenore]
    #435420 - 10/24/01 02:21 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

****If we spent even a fraction of the money......****

Money does not equal a successful education....

I've posted this in the past but it is still relavent:

The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and homeschooling isn't even listed.....

****Education should be a right for all humans****

How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught?

****Far from private schooling, the system of education which promotes those with money over those without is irrational. ****

No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a studant is smart ie: scholarships and grants

I didn't have much money when i first went into college so i went into the military and went to a community college before entering a university. I earned a scholarship for academic achievement and got a majority of my schooling paid for in addition to the money i earned through the military.

****If education is to be held in the hands of the elite, than it is not education****

sounds like class envy

****.....it is a diploma in Power and Privledge*****

no it's a diploma in intellectual intelligence

****Your view on education lies entirley within the realm of the Capitalist Philosophy****

and yours lies directly in the realm of Communist socialism


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinemm.
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435713 - 10/24/01 05:57 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a student is smart ie: scholarships and grants.




Surely academic ability is a better measure of intelligence than the ability to get money. What sort of society would you get if only those with the ability to get money got an education. How would those people unable to get the money feel towards those who were more privilged?


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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435949 - 10/24/01 09:34 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and homeschooling isn't even listed..... "

You are really obsessed with these numbers. Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other? No shit its gonna cost less to support a catholic school then a public school. I'm gonna use one of your favorite lines; its like comparing apples and oranges.

"How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? "

Eh, if you read the quote, Lenore said SHOULD, not IS.

"No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a studant is smart ie: scholarships and grants "

But now your steering away from the issue you brought up, if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades, they should be able to go while someone with the same grades cannot because there parents don't make as much money?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #435972 - 10/24/01 10:12 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

MrKurtz writes:

"Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other?"

I believe the point is that everyone perceives private schools to provide better education than public schools. Yet private schools actually cost LESS per student than do public schools. Typical government endeavor... charge twice the price for half the product.

"if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades, they should be able to go while someone with the same grades cannot because there parents don't make as much money? "

That's right. Just as kids whose parents have more money have home computers and new cars, while kids whose parents have less money have gameboys and bicycles. It's not the kid's fault he gets sent to a private school, despite his bad grades.

The concept of a private school is... SOMEBODY other than the government has to pay for each and every student. Simple. If you can't pay, you get to go to public school. Just like when you get food stamps, you get to trade them for rice and beans, not champagne and caviar.

pinky


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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Phred]
    #436022 - 10/24/01 11:27 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

All that stuff about public schools being worse than private schools is mostly a bunch of crap.. They take all the public schools and average them out. That gets them a low grade because they include inner city schools and such.

Take a few of the schools in the rich neighborhoods and compare them to private schools and you get a different story. Public schools around the Country are often funded by property taxes... property taxes in a ghetto or barrio aren't much. In a rich area that means all the kids have everything they need. A lot depends on where one lives, that's all.

The comparison is more one between those with money and those without. Typical GOPer bullshit designed to tarnish minorites and the poor. Here's an example of the same type of logic.... If one looks at the average Black student SAT scores, they turn out lower than the average White students. To a GOPer this means that Blacks are dumber than Whites. They are too stupid and self rightious to factor in the environments. That's what they're doing with this school comparison crap as well.

Most of them are racists. I lived in the South (Texas, Mississippi, etc) for years.. I know why they all vote Republican. I know why the South votes Republican. And I know why they want to deny Blacks a decent education....

They are afraid they couldn't compete on an even playing field.

Edited by ElPrimo (10/24/01 11:38 PM)

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OfflineTeRzMaStA
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #436036 - 10/24/01 11:47 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

You can't judge if someone is smart or not by their grades. Some poeple aren't motivated and personal shit happens. As far as public schooling vs private I would have to agree on the nieghborhood thing, but there is a huge difference and there are more poor nieghborhoods than rich ones. I don't mean to sound racist here or anything but schools that are mostly white do a lot better than schools that aren't. Encino and tarzana aren't poor ares but the schools there are almost entirely hispanic, and the hispanic kids there a the stupidest people i have ever seen. i'd say more but i have stuff to do and i have to go. I'll probably write more tomorrow.


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Think for yourself; Question Authority

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #436231 - 10/25/01 06:42 AM (22 years, 4 months ago)

****Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other****

eh...schools aren't that different...well private schools are better then public schools

****I'm gonna use one of your favorite lines; its like comparing apples and oranges. ****

If you're going to use my lines please make sure they apply...apples to oranges is like comparing the a football players stats to a hockey golie's save percentage...

****Eh, if you read the quote, Lenore said SHOULD, not IS. ****

Then I ask again, How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? Who will force people to teach?
or should i say who SHOULD be the one's to tach them for free.

****if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades****

No i say that if a person needs to have the proper GPA to get into college. (which should not depend on what color you are or how rich you are) Money is not an issue if the person doesn't qualify academic wise.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #436939 - 10/25/01 08:22 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

"eh...schools aren't that different...well private schools are better then public schools"

Yeah they are.... problem students have to go somewhere, and they send them to public schools. If a private school doesn't like someone, they kick them out. A public school has to spend money on alot more things then a private school would. Anyways, I have been to rich public schools, better then most catholic schools, i know this since my friend had been to most of the catholic schools in the area and the classes were far more advanced in the public high school i went to. And, since we are on the topic of money, the public schools who pay teachers more money have much better teachers... interesting huh?

"Then I ask again, How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? Who will force people to teach?
or should i say who SHOULD be the one's to tach them for free. "

Not for free.... they should get paid, who said we should start paying teachers nothing?

"No i say that if a person needs to have the proper GPA to get into college. (which should not depend on what color you are or how rich you are) Money is not an issue if the person doesn't qualify academic wise."

Yes, but if 2 people who qualify and have similar grades both apply to a school, but 1 doesn't have enough money (even if its a public college, which still cost a ton of money), the one with less money will not be able to attend. Is this fair?


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #437031 - 10/25/01 09:51 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

thats silly that you call me a communist or a socialist, goes to show you don't know much about either.

What is the human life spent in poverty, denied and education, oppressed by those with wealth? It's not the human life worth living.

The only thing private schools provide that public schools do not is an education in Cultural Capital.

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #437052 - 10/25/01 10:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago)

>problem students have to go somewhere, and they send them to public schools. If a private school doesn't like someone, they kick them out.

This is not entirely true. I've known several people that have been kicked out of public schools for drug use or possession in school and they end up going to private school because their parents could buy their way into a school.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MokshaMan]
    #445228 - 11/02/01 09:24 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I read about a few guys that won the lottery also. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to buy lottery tickets.

Face it, poor kids get lousy schooling which helps keep them poor. Everyone is out to protect their own. White folks believe that if they help minorities get good educations it will cost them jobs. So they vote GOP and hope to keep the minorities at a disadvantage...

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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #445335 - 11/03/01 12:13 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

All that money and effort spent on educating people, if the government were smart they would institue a system of schooling that would be self dependent in terms of funding. For Example .. Cuba's school system works like this students show up and work the fields, "farm", half of the day and then receive instruction the other half. It may seem like work, but that seems to improve the economy, or something? What do you think?

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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #445396 - 11/03/01 02:49 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I was not taking a stance on this issue, I was just pointing out that his example was not always what happens.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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Invisiblefuzzysquirelnuts
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MokshaMan]
    #446021 - 11/03/01 07:37 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

i goto the school for a bunch of fuckups (alternative highschool) and it is better than any school ive ever been to just because they have extra funding for thew school just due to the "special needs of at risk students"...dam never mind im not getting anywhere with this (maybe someone can pull something out of this?)


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were all retarded sometimes

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: fuzzysquirelnuts]
    #446393 - 11/04/01 05:29 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

squirrelmuts, I know what you're saying... Sometimes it's like that, and I'd say rightfully so. Some people think that the extra "value" provided at your school is being wasted. I don't know, if you look at it hard the lines of ethics always get blured. The average kid usually does get overlooked. Those under and over always get the attention. That's why you have underachievers and attempts at overachievers.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #447448 - 11/05/01 06:09 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

if you spent as much time studying as you do whining you'd get a full ride scholarship..you're pathetic

****Face it, poor kids get lousy schooling which helps keep them poor***

No...money doesn't mean shit when these boneheads you refer to don't even know what 2+2 is. and have no intention on trying to figure it out.

****Everyone is out to protect their own***

This is why you are a socialist. (look it up..it may look familiar) It is not the responsibility of others to take care of that fuckup that doesn't want to work. School is hard and if you can't take it..well the world needs dishwashers.

****White folks believe that if they help minorities get good educations it will cost them jobs****

Aren't you white? are you a hypocrite?...and you can't be too poor..you do have a computer......or does that not count...cry me a fucking river.

****So they vote GOP and hope to keep the minorities at a disadvantage****

Like they're any different then the socialist liberals


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleIshmael
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #447705 - 11/05/01 12:47 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

You're sounding more and more racists as this thread progresses, Innvertigo. Unless that is your intention, I would suggest that you calm down a bit and readress your argument.

There is a very large difference between Knowledge and Intelligence. Education does not provide intelligence, nor does it take it away. Education provides Knowledge. Thomas Jefferson advocated mandatory public education not because it make people /smarter/ but because it gave the the requisite knowledge needed to be an informed citizen and thus participate in the governmental process.

Skip forward a few hundred years, look at our educational system today and you see an artifact no longer concerned with producing more knowledgable informed citizens. The current state of the educational system in the United States is regulated by standardized tests...and the catering towards standardized testing. This produces a behavior in schools in which all teaching is geared towards passing standardized tests rather than distributing information (and Knowledge) to make students 'informed'. And in this behavior, schools to not perform uniformly. An inner-city school populated by inner-city kids is less likey to perform well not because of the teachers or the methods employed, but because of the environment in which the students grew up. These students may not get a 32 on their ACT because the knowledge implied by school does not /adress the state of their current lives/. The kids grew up in the projects where their lives revolved around getting food, being poor and survival in a near-anarchy state. The greater portion of their 'intelligence' is not involved with solving differential equation (or as you like to put it, 2+2), but rather with the process of survival in their environment.

You obviously grew up in a well-to-do suburb where the extent of survival-learning was found in the fridge after school. Justifiably, your life revolved around school. All of the mental processes which would have been incorporating survival techniques were subverted into learning knowledge about abstract things like history, math, reading and writing. This makes you more intelligent? If that's the case, if I dropped you off in the Ghetto with nothing but your clothes and some cheap shoes...do you think you could survive? Or would you make a b-line back to suburbia? Another example, if I took you into the Amazon and dropped you off in the middle of a mangrove swamp, would you be able to survive? You've had this great education, you know what 2+2 is, you know that a square has four sides. But I bet you wouldn't last half a week. Not because you're stupid, but because the quality of your knowledge is not applicable to that situation. You take an Amazonian Indian, he doesn't know 2+2 or how many sides a square has or how to read or write...but if you dropped him off in the middle of a mangrove swamp, he would be able to survive. You're level of knowledge is not /better/, don't be so arrogant to believe that, it is just different. On this note, the education offered by public schools to inner-city kids is /not applicable/ to their situation.

Don't avoid your own ignorance with more ignorance. It just makes you look like a fool.

Ish

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Ishmael]
    #447735 - 11/05/01 01:15 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

***You're sounding more and more racists as this thread progresses, Innvertigo***

Really?...how so? name one statement i made that is racist?...you can't...how did race get into this discussion?

****You obviously grew up in a well-to-do suburb where the extent of survival-learning was found in the fridge after school****

You obviously are wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble but my parents where plain 'ol parents. I got handme downs and lived in a hick town. I am 1 of 7 kids from a middle class family. My first car was a 1979 mercury bobcat (pinto) and my parents didn't spend one dime on my college education.....i guess that blows your whole argument away..eh?

***Justifiably, your life revolved around school***

No...my life revolved around getting in trouble..that's another story. in highschool i had average to below average grades and went into the military to earn money for college. I went to community college after where i earned a high enough GPA to transfer to U of Mich.. I went on to grad. school and the rest is history. I now live in a nice subdivision where there is virtually no crime and i'm surrounded by those that are successful.

***if I dropped you off in the Ghetto with nothing but your clothes and some cheap shoes...do you think you could survive? ***

Yes...your point? Are you saying that all people in "Ghetto" are theives and murderers?..It seems to me my man that you are the one that's being a tad racist.

****if I took you into the Amazon and dropped you off in the middle of a mangrove swamp............****

What the hell does that have to do with me living here in the United States?...but to answer your question what i'd do is call a bulldowzer on my cell phone and built an amusement park and charge them Amazons to go there..that's how rediculus your analogy is...anyways i was in the Army for 8 years i think i could do ok.

****You're level of knowledge is not /better/****

When did i say that my knowledge is better..are you making this up?

****the education offered by public schools to inner-city kids is /not applicable/ to their situation****

Then how can you explain those that grew up in the inner city that are now succesful by concentrating on scholling to get out of their situation?...are you saying inner city kids can't make it?..sounds racist

****Don't avoid your own ignorance with more ignorance. It just makes you look like a fool. ****

Ignorance is bliss...you must be happy right now...Don't spout your racist comparisons and make believe assumptions and open up your mind to the potential of those in these inner cuties. I have confidence in them...why don't you?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MokshaMan]
    #450813 - 11/07/01 08:02 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"This is not entirely true. I've known several people that have been kicked out of public schools for drug use or possession in school and they end up going to private school because their parents could buy their way into a school. "

This is not entirely what I meant to say, what I was trying to say was if a private school is getting dragged down by low test scores, then guess what? They kick out the kids that drag them down. No wonder they look better on paper. On the other hand... You can fail every class and still go to public schools. Thats why I was saying it unreasonable to compare public schools to private.

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #450836 - 11/07/01 08:18 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"Don't spout your racist comparisons and make believe assumptions and open up your mind to the potential of those in these inner cuties. I have confidence in them...why don't you? "

This is a racist statement. You are completely ignoring the fact that it is far more difficult to grow up in a ghetto and schools are far worse, there is no denying it. Now, some kids get lucky and get themselves out of there, but often the emotional burden carried from traumatic events is enough to keep them down. Also, many inner-city kids grow up getting taught that all there is to life is getting laid and getting high.... not a very motivating life style.

"You obviously are wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble but my parents where plain 'ol parents. I got handme downs and lived in a hick town. I am 1 of 7 kids from a middle class family. My first car was a 1979 mercury bobcat (pinto) and my parents didn't spend one dime on my college education.....i guess that blows your whole argument away..eh? "

Eh, you're saying the hick town you grew up in wasn't a suburb? I don't think he said you grew up in a rich town, just not a city. And, like you said, your family was middle class... much different then a kid living in the ghetto.

"Yes...your point? Are you saying that all people in "Ghetto" are theives and murderers?..It seems to me my man that you are the one that's being a tad racist. "

Eh, not all people are thieves and murderers, but theres enough to spot a whitebread republican from a mile away. Theres a difference between ignorant bigotry, which you seem to be a big fan of, and a realistic viewpoint.

"Then how can you explain those that grew up in the inner city that are now succesful by concentrating on scholling to get out of their situation?...are you saying inner city kids can't make it?..sounds racist "

And lots of rich kids become drug addict junkies... it doesn't happen often, but inner city kids going from rags to riches is even less common. If you went to both inner city and suburban public schools... you would notice a huge difference between the 2. Just because you had all the time in the world to spend 8 years in the army then go to 2 or 3 different colleges doesn't mean everyone does.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #451462 - 11/08/01 07:56 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

***"Don't spout your racist comparisons and make believe assumptions and open up your mind to the potential of those in these inner cuties. I have confidence in them...why don't you? "

This is a racist statement****

How is this a racist statement?.. I'm the only one who has had confidence in those that are in the "projects" I believe they have the same potential as I...unfortunatly there are a bunch of sissyfied white people who believe that they can't make it without their help..Unfortunatly you are too ignorant to realize how racist you are.

****Now, some kids get lucky and get themselves out of there, but often the emotional burden carried from traumatic events is enough to keep them down. *****

sure they're not smart...they're just lucky!! Your racism is shinning through...so is you imaturity.

***Also, many inner-city kids grow up getting taught that all there is to life is getting laid and getting high****

Sounds very stereotypical....you're just making shit up now....why do you insist on making yourself look stupid?

****Eh, you're saying the hick town you grew up in wasn't a suburb? ****

How many hick towns do you know that is a suburb?..no it wasn't a suburb..so what?

****And, like you said, your family was middle class... much different then a kid living in the ghetto. ****

I guess you missed the part about 7 kids...

****Eh, not all people are thieves and murderers, but theres enough to spot a whitebread republican from a mile away****

with every word you make yourself dumber and dumber

****Theres a difference between ignorant bigotry, which you seem to be a big fan of, and a realistic viewpoint. ****

You're making no sense and have no idea what racism is...the only bigots on this site are those that think minorities can't make it on their own..like yourself.

****but inner city kids going from rags to riches is even less common****

Who says they have to be rich?...being an avergage wage earner can be looked at as a success. Someday you may be a success....but you are a defeatist that will never amount to anything unless it is changed.

****Just because you had all the time in the world to spend 8 years in the army then go to 2 or 3 different colleges doesn't mean everyone does. ****

This is why you aren't taken seriously. Yeah like i had nothing better to do but join the army, leave my lazy days, do push-ups in the rain get yelled at, waking up at 4:45am, go to the persian gulf, live in the sand for 7 months, pull all nighters in school, tests, finals, interviews, more tests, more interviews.....yeah you can say i had some "FREE" time.

why don't YOU get off your lazy ass...you could learn from them sucesses from the projects....it's people like you that make people hate white people.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #451928 - 11/08/01 04:53 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"How is this a racist statement?.. I'm the only one who has had confidence in those that are in the "projects" I believe they have the same potential as I...unfortunatly there are a bunch of sissyfied white people who believe that they can't make it without their help..Unfortunatly you are too ignorant to realize how racist you are. "

Because it has nothing to do with potential. I'm not talking about giving black people an unfair advantage... I'm saying they should be given a fair chance. You are racist cause you think everything is fine and dandy, when it isn't. If you have so much confidence in inner-city kids... then why do so many of them fail? By your standards, that means they are all lazy assholes and don't deserve what most other people have.

"sure they're not smart...they're just lucky!! Your racism is shinning through...so is you imaturity. "

So, all the other black people who fail are stupid then? Ok, you still say your not a racist when you are claiming that the majority of black people are stupid?

"Sounds very stereotypical....you're just making shit up now....why do you insist on making yourself look stupid?"

I'm being realistic. I was born in Boston, lived there till the middle of my freshmen year of high school. Its a mindset people have when they live in a desperate atmosphere... have you ever noticed that the majority of hard drugs are sold in ghettos? Or that there is an amazing number of liquor stores in the inner-city? Its not just a coincidence.

"How many hick towns do you know that is a suburb?..no it wasn't a suburb..so what? "

Every hick town I know is a suburb. What other kind of hick town is there other then a rural town? Otherwise, both suburbs and rural areas are pretty damn easy to grow up in.

"You're making no sense and have no idea what racism is...the only bigots on this site are those that think minorities can't make it on their own..like yourself. "

No, the only bigots here are then ones who keep telling themselves that everything is fair when its obcviously not.

"This is why you aren't taken seriously. Yeah like i had nothing better to do but join the army, leave my lazy days, do push-ups in the rain get yelled at, waking up at 4:45am, go to the persian gulf, live in the sand for 7 months, pull all nighters in school, tests, finals, interviews, more tests, more interviews.....yeah you can say i had some "FREE" time. "

Yeah, good for you. By free time I mean you must have had plenty of time to only think for yourself. If you have to help support a family... or have children... or any number of other things, you don't have time to run off to the army then college.

"why don't YOU get off your lazy ass...you could learn from them sucesses from the projects....it's people like you that make people hate white people. "

I work 50 hour weeks, make close to a grand a week, and have my own appartment. I wake up at 5 am every weekday. I didn't go to college cause I had awful grades, I had clinical depression through most of high school. My grades picked up quite a bit the last 2 years of high school, but my sister was already in college and had no money to stay, so I got a job and am still helping her through it. I could probably still have gone to college, but I'm putting it off till my sister is done studying.

I still go into the city every once in a while to do shit with my childhood friends, most of them are black. My best friend growing up is in jail now, and most of them aren't doing to good otherwise. The only ones who went on to college were the ones who signed up for an inner-city program where they take an hour bus ride from Boston to a suburb to go to school. Now, they had to wake up at 5 am to get ready to school, and got home at around 5 pm. Now, compared to all the other kids who already lived in the suburbs... I would say they had to work a bit harder huh?

As for the reason why minorities hate white people... You're an oblivious idiot if you think its cause they are sympathetic. Its cause they are often treated as second class citizens and/or dangers to society, not to mention a little thing called segregation which was not to long ago, also, can't leave out the whole slavery issue.

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #453056 - 11/09/01 02:59 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Rewarding the rich is fair because it inspires the rest of us to want to be rich. It calls for the intelligent people to find their way out of poverty. Without that motivation, the taxpayers are left feeding spoiled, worthless people.

If you get good grades in a public school, then you can get a scholarship or a grant to attend a university. Going to a college is a privelage. The colleges want it that way, because that gives their diplomas value. Only the dedicated poor kids, and the rich kids carry around this sticker.

A rich kid does not have to work as hard to obtain his sticker as a poor kid. That is a reward to the kid's parents. By making money for themselves in a capitalistic world, their kid is grantee the ability to do so. It's motivation, pure and simple. And there is nothing wrong with keeping Society motivated.

Whites do not keep blacks on an unlevel playing field. The rich keep the poor on an uneven playing field. Blacks tend to be poor. Whites tend to be wealthier. The reasons for the unlevel playing field are not the responsibliity of the wealthy. The poor individual is welcome to reach up from the gutter and try and grab the brass ring.

It's motivation. If it were easy, we would all become lazy and the machine would stop moving.

The question is, is there still a need for a machine?

If we have the ability to feed, clothe, and shelter everyone on Earth, why shouldn't we do that? Love thy neighbor.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #453518 - 11/09/01 10:50 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Invertigo you wanker - how is the trailer home?? You better get out of your arm chair and get yourself a 'bud' old man... Have you learnt to spell? I would assume that since you spend all your time in this forum that you would have improved on your 5 grade education...
Hands up who hates grumpy old men like Invertigo with hairy backs and grey pubic hair!!!


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #453930 - 11/10/01 12:54 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Innvertigo, you tend to see things in your own idealized way. Then of course you criticize us "idealists". But that's another story.

Your ideal world is that hard work is always rewarded justly. For example, you've said repeatedly here that poor kids can make it into college by scholarships, because if you do well academically you'll get them.

I'm not poor. I'm a suburban white kid whose parents are paying for college. I'm smart, got pretty good grades (spending half the day at a special school for math / science / technology, no less), pretty good SAT score, got into every college I applied to, and got - no scholarships / grants / whatever. I got a small one to a small private school I applied for - but it still would have been more expensive than the public college I'm attending.

So the only reason I'm in college is because my parents are paying for it. But since I'm smart and all, I should have gotten a full ride, according to your argument.

If you'd like the details of my academic standing I'll PM them to you.


--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.

Edited by Captain Jack (11/10/01 12:55 PM)

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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #454581 - 11/10/01 11:41 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah.. I have to admit that I do enjoy my position as a White guy who's managed to work his way up. I can afford to send my daughter to college and buy her a new car. Sort of a present for getting a scholorship. She was pretty much straight A's in highschool. She was in the band. Of course I spent money on private lessions so she would do well. I even funded her on a music trip thru Europe. There's a program called 'Ambassadors of Music' where each State gets their best high school musicians and tours a number of countries playing at different sites (as long as daddy has 4 grand to blow).

So, I know that I gave my kid some special advantages. But while I try to help my kid out, I don't try and deny the minority kid the very basics. I don't try and make sure they don't even have a music program because of a lack of funds. No, I leave that to chicken shit Republicans who whine about cost, while giving away billions to the rich. Republicans who throw up roadblocks to helping poor kids every step of the way. They even want to do away with Sesame Street. And to deny funding for immunization and free health care for children. After all, it generally goes to poor kids... A lot of who 'just happen' to be Black and Brown kids.

But I know why they do it... It isn't the mony. They are afraid they can't compete.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #455374 - 11/11/01 08:10 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

you are really concentrating on my genatalia eh?...what, your dad not let you play with him anymore?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Captain Jack]
    #455378 - 11/11/01 08:17 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

****Innvertigo, you tend to see things in your own idealized way. Then of course you criticize us "idealists". ****

Do you really want to start out a response with a contradiction?....please think about it...since you're smart and all...

****Your ideal world is that hard work is always rewarded justly. ****

No my ideal world is that hard work opens up possibilities......nothing is "always"

****So the only reason I'm in college is because my parents are paying for it****

You're contradicting yourself again....i thought you said that you got accepted because you were smart?..guess not.

****But since I'm smart and all, I should have gotten a full ride, according to your argument.***

Tell me smart guy...did you apply for them scholarships?...you don't automatically get them

***If you'd like the details of my academic standing I'll PM them to you. ****

No thanks...you've already proved how smart you are.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (11/12/01 11:12 AM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #455389 - 11/11/01 08:29 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

****But while I try to help my kid out, I don't try and deny the minority kid the very basics.****

Then what do you give them then?

****I don't try and make sure they don't even have a music program because of a lack of funds****

How do you help them then?...sounds like mismanagemnet of funds if ya ask me.

****No, I leave that to chicken shit Republicans who whine about cost, while giving away billions to the rich.*****

You seem to think that it's only the republicans that fuck society. Well my man it's both the Demonazis and the republicrates who do it. I'm a libertarian and i think both of your philosophical beliefs suck. I believe that those who pay the taxes get tax relief meaning those that put the most in get the most out proportionaly

****They even want to do away with Sesame Street. ****

Oh heavens..NOT seasame street...what ever will we do?

****And to deny funding for immunization and free health care for children.****

Are you going to pay for it?...maybe that four grand you're using to send your daughter to that band thing should be eliminated so "the children" can benefit from your charity....because i'm sure you use all your extra money to help them.

****After all, it generally goes to poor kids... A lot of who 'just happen' to be Black and Brown kids.****

WOW...there is a lot of Race cards being tossed around...just think how useless your argument would be if we were all one color.

****But I know why they do it... It isn't the mony. They are afraid they can't compete. ****

It's too bad that you aren't willing to let them compete, instead you want to give them something without earning it...that is real racism.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #455492 - 11/11/01 10:00 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"I believe that those who pay the taxes get tax relief meaning those that put the most in get the most out proportionaly "

So, the people who have advantages should be given advantages that they don't really need?

"Oh heavens..NOT seasame street...what ever will we do? "

Hmm, you are again proving how ignorant you are of the lives of other people. You say if parents would get off there lazy asses and do something... what happens to there children? They get to stay home and watch either sesame street... or jerry springer. Which one would you prefer them to watch?

"WOW...there is a lot of Race cards being tossed around...just think how useless your argument would be if we were all one color. "

Racism is a big issue... no matter what you say. Things are getting better, doesn't mean they are fair. The country is recovering from segregation, but its obvious we still have a long way to go. If you actually studied history, which I'm sure ya did.... there would be no situation like there is now if there wasn't the enslavement of africans. Plain and simple. Now, there would still be poorer areas and richer areas, but it wouldnt be based on ancestry and race as it is now.

"It's too bad that you aren't willing to let them compete, instead you want to give them something without earning it...that is real racism. "

We arent talking about giving grown up poor people breaks, we're talking about giving their children breaks. Whats wrong with helping people out whos only mistake was being born to a poor family?

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #455921 - 11/12/01 11:32 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

****So, the people who have advantages should be given advantages that they don't really need? ****

UH.....they paid taxes..they deserve their portion of a tax break...if you pay no taxes then you don't get anything back...it's really quite simple

****what happens to there children? They get to stay home and watch either sesame street... or jerry springer. Which one would you prefer them to watch? ****

I'd prefer their parents make that decision.....tv is not the answer ya know. It's too bad most parents use the TV as a babysitter.

****Racism is a big issue... no matter what you say. ****

Sure it is..it's too bad you use it in every argument

***Things are getting better, doesn't mean they are fair. ***

Fairness is subjective....it's too bad you haven't been exposed to the business world..it might change your view.

****The country is recovering from segregation, but its obvious we still have a long way to go. ****

I'm really not sure if that's true..in my experience the racism is higher in the older generation us "gen x'ers" are changing this view of minorities thinking them as equals...not trying to give them a free ride.

****there would be no situation like there is now if there wasn't the enslavement of africans. Plain and simple***

Then how do the jews do so well? Using your thinking they should be extremely poor...remember the blacks weren't the only ones ever held in slavery...you'd figure you'd know that. huh..that's odd

****Now, there would still be poorer areas and richer areas, but it wouldnt be based on ancestry and race as it is now. ****

Then what would it be based on?...eye color? Are they lazy? or really obressed?

****We arent talking about giving grown up poor people breaks, we're talking about giving their children breaks. ****

What?....that makes no sense...

****Whats wrong with helping people out whos only mistake was being born to a poor family? ****

in life there are the rich the poor the good the bad. I'm not saying deny anything from them...Your implying that if you're not rich it's a mistake...very odd


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #456377 - 11/12/01 07:11 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

"UH.....they paid taxes..they deserve their portion of a tax break...if you pay no taxes then you don't get anything back...it's really quite simple "

Sure they deserve a tax break like everyone else, but not a larger portion then someone else who needs it more. If you are being protected by a society, you should give something back to it. You are taking the greatness of america for granted if you think a rich man in america is a rich man in china.

"I'd prefer their parents make that decision.....tv is not the answer ya know. It's too bad most parents use the TV as a babysitter. "

I didn't say it was the answer. I said it was an alternative. If a parent doesn't have the money to hire a babysitter, they have to leave there children alone. Many times, they are better off alone then with a teenage asshole (I know this from experience). Now, I myself was a big fan of sesame street when i was younger, and it would be a shame if it were gone. Like I said, if the child is gonna be watching tv anyways, would you rather have them watching daytime trash or sesame street?

"Then what would it be based on?...eye color? Are they lazy? or really obressed? "

Yes, eye color. Thats exactly what I was talking about, aren't you a bright one? How bout you put thought into it instead of making dickhead remarks?

"Then how do the jews do so well? Using your thinking they should be extremely poor...remember the blacks weren't the only ones ever held in slavery...you'd figure you'd know that. huh..that's odd "

Jewish people were in the christian western culture for over a thousand years. Black people, for about 200, and the first 100 years of that they were property.

"I'm really not sure if that's true..in my experience the racism is higher in the older generation us "gen x'ers" are changing this view of minorities thinking them as equals...not trying to give them a free ride. "

I'm not talking about a free ride. I never once said we should give people free rides. Do you actually listen to people or just pick up a few quotes then make asshole remarks? What I am saying is that we should improve inner city schools, build more schools so they aren't so damned crowded, and maybe even give there parents a few small breaks. When I was growing up, under reagan and bush's economics my mother alone with 2 young children was getting about 50 dollar tax returns. Once she got a few dollars, come damn close to oweing more money. Do you consider this fair?

"in life there are the rich the poor the good the bad. I'm not saying deny anything from them...Your implying that if you're not rich it's a mistake...very odd"

Yeah, there are, but in life every society has sucked. Is it wrong to try to improve things? As for being poor being a mistake.. I said it was a "mistake" to be born into a poor family. I think you understand this concept?

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OfflineMklangelo
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Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Lenore]
    #471251 - 11/27/01 03:16 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

When someone makes a statement like "why should money be the only factor in determining a persons right to an education?" I start to think of a naive, liberal dreamer that doesn't think, but only feels what he/she wants is justified. Well, money isnt the only factor. Your grades might have something to do with it also...Oh and don't forget the nagging reality that if you ain't payin', who is? Me??


--------------------
[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Mklangelo]
    #472604 - 11/28/01 04:52 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

how true, how true...you hit it right on the head my man!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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