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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Something For Nothing
    #435105 - 10/24/01 09:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I was curious, what makes people think that they have a right to things that they can't afford? ie: A harvard education, Private schooling etc. If they do happen to make it to one of these facilities through one means or another, why do they expect others to pay for it? And what gives them that right?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435376 - 10/24/01 03:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

why should money be the only factor in determining a persons right to an education?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Lenore]
    #435382 - 10/24/01 03:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

****why should money be the only factor in determining a persons right to an education? ****

it's called capitalism........

What makes you think that you have a right to go to a private school or University?

remember public education is still education..and if you really want to go to a university but can't afford it you better make sure you earn a grant or scholarship through scholastic accomplishments....if you're an idiot in school and can't afford it, you have no right to be put into college because you think you have that right


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435395 - 10/24/01 04:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Far from private schooling, the system of education which promotes those with money over those without is irrational. Money does not equal intelligence, nor should it equal the power that comes with higher education.
Education should be a right for all humans.
If we spent even a fraction of the money we do on the Military on public education everyone in America could recieve a chance.
If education is to be held in the hands of the elite, than it is not education, it is a diploma in Power and Privledge.
Your view on education lies entirley within the realm of the Capitalist Philosophy, the human mind, all human minds should be able to transcend this universe of discourse.

reclaim your minds from capitalism.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Lenore]
    #435420 - 10/24/01 04:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

****If we spent even a fraction of the money......****

Money does not equal a successful education....

I've posted this in the past but it is still relavent:

The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and homeschooling isn't even listed.....

****Education should be a right for all humans****

How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught?

****Far from private schooling, the system of education which promotes those with money over those without is irrational. ****

No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a studant is smart ie: scholarships and grants

I didn't have much money when i first went into college so i went into the military and went to a community college before entering a university. I earned a scholarship for academic achievement and got a majority of my schooling paid for in addition to the money i earned through the military.

****If education is to be held in the hands of the elite, than it is not education****

sounds like class envy

****.....it is a diploma in Power and Privledge*****

no it's a diploma in intellectual intelligence

****Your view on education lies entirley within the realm of the Capitalist Philosophy****

and yours lies directly in the realm of Communist socialism


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinemm.
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435713 - 10/24/01 07:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a student is smart ie: scholarships and grants.




Surely academic ability is a better measure of intelligence than the ability to get money. What sort of society would you get if only those with the ability to get money got an education. How would those people unable to get the money feel towards those who were more privilged?


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #435949 - 10/24/01 11:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"The national average cost per student of public schools was $6,857. This was 120% higher than $3,116 for private schools, and 215% higher than $2,178 for catholic schools. (CATO Institute/U.S. Dept. of Education Digest of Education Statistics 1995)....and homeschooling isn't even listed..... "

You are really obsessed with these numbers. Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other? No shit its gonna cost less to support a catholic school then a public school. I'm gonna use one of your favorite lines; its like comparing apples and oranges.

"How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? "

Eh, if you read the quote, Lenore said SHOULD, not IS.

"No it's called promoting those that are smarter over those that are not. Money will be found if a studant is smart ie: scholarships and grants "

But now your steering away from the issue you brought up, if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades, they should be able to go while someone with the same grades cannot because there parents don't make as much money?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #435972 - 10/25/01 12:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

MrKurtz writes:

"Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other?"

I believe the point is that everyone perceives private schools to provide better education than public schools. Yet private schools actually cost LESS per student than do public schools. Typical government endeavor... charge twice the price for half the product.

"if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades, they should be able to go while someone with the same grades cannot because there parents don't make as much money? "

That's right. Just as kids whose parents have more money have home computers and new cars, while kids whose parents have less money have gameboys and bicycles. It's not the kid's fault he gets sent to a private school, despite his bad grades.

The concept of a private school is... SOMEBODY other than the government has to pay for each and every student. Simple. If you can't pay, you get to go to public school. Just like when you get food stamps, you get to trade them for rice and beans, not champagne and caviar.

pinky


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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Phred]
    #436022 - 10/25/01 01:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

All that stuff about public schools being worse than private schools is mostly a bunch of crap.. They take all the public schools and average them out. That gets them a low grade because they include inner city schools and such.

Take a few of the schools in the rich neighborhoods and compare them to private schools and you get a different story. Public schools around the Country are often funded by property taxes... property taxes in a ghetto or barrio aren't much. In a rich area that means all the kids have everything they need. A lot depends on where one lives, that's all.

The comparison is more one between those with money and those without. Typical GOPer bullshit designed to tarnish minorites and the poor. Here's an example of the same type of logic.... If one looks at the average Black student SAT scores, they turn out lower than the average White students. To a GOPer this means that Blacks are dumber than Whites. They are too stupid and self rightious to factor in the environments. That's what they're doing with this school comparison crap as well.

Most of them are racists. I lived in the South (Texas, Mississippi, etc) for years.. I know why they all vote Republican. I know why the South votes Republican. And I know why they want to deny Blacks a decent education....

They are afraid they couldn't compete on an even playing field.


Edited by ElPrimo (10/25/01 01:38 AM)


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OfflineTeRzMaStA
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #436036 - 10/25/01 01:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You can't judge if someone is smart or not by their grades. Some poeple aren't motivated and personal shit happens. As far as public schooling vs private I would have to agree on the nieghborhood thing, but there is a huge difference and there are more poor nieghborhoods than rich ones. I don't mean to sound racist here or anything but schools that are mostly white do a lot better than schools that aren't. Encino and tarzana aren't poor ares but the schools there are almost entirely hispanic, and the hispanic kids there a the stupidest people i have ever seen. i'd say more but i have stuff to do and i have to go. I'll probably write more tomorrow.


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Think for yourself; Question Authority


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #436231 - 10/25/01 08:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

****Why are you comparing completely different schools to each other****

eh...schools aren't that different...well private schools are better then public schools

****I'm gonna use one of your favorite lines; its like comparing apples and oranges. ****

If you're going to use my lines please make sure they apply...apples to oranges is like comparing the a football players stats to a hockey golie's save percentage...

****Eh, if you read the quote, Lenore said SHOULD, not IS. ****

Then I ask again, How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? Who will force people to teach?
or should i say who SHOULD be the one's to tach them for free.

****if someones parents have the money to send them to school, even though they have mediocre grades****

No i say that if a person needs to have the proper GPA to get into college. (which should not depend on what color you are or how rich you are) Money is not an issue if the person doesn't qualify academic wise.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #436939 - 10/25/01 10:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"eh...schools aren't that different...well private schools are better then public schools"

Yeah they are.... problem students have to go somewhere, and they send them to public schools. If a private school doesn't like someone, they kick them out. A public school has to spend money on alot more things then a private school would. Anyways, I have been to rich public schools, better then most catholic schools, i know this since my friend had been to most of the catholic schools in the area and the classes were far more advanced in the public high school i went to. And, since we are on the topic of money, the public schools who pay teachers more money have much better teachers... interesting huh?

"Then I ask again, How? Where is it written that every human has a right to be taught? Who will force people to teach?
or should i say who SHOULD be the one's to tach them for free. "

Not for free.... they should get paid, who said we should start paying teachers nothing?

"No i say that if a person needs to have the proper GPA to get into college. (which should not depend on what color you are or how rich you are) Money is not an issue if the person doesn't qualify academic wise."

Yes, but if 2 people who qualify and have similar grades both apply to a school, but 1 doesn't have enough money (even if its a public college, which still cost a ton of money), the one with less money will not be able to attend. Is this fair?



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InvisibleLenore
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #437031 - 10/25/01 11:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

thats silly that you call me a communist or a socialist, goes to show you don't know much about either.

What is the human life spent in poverty, denied and education, oppressed by those with wealth? It's not the human life worth living.

The only thing private schools provide that public schools do not is an education in Cultural Capital.


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MrKurtz]
    #437052 - 10/26/01 12:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

>problem students have to go somewhere, and they send them to public schools. If a private school doesn't like someone, they kick them out.

This is not entirely true. I've known several people that have been kicked out of public schools for drug use or possession in school and they end up going to private school because their parents could buy their way into a school.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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OfflineElPrimo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MokshaMan]
    #445228 - 11/02/01 11:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I read about a few guys that won the lottery also. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to buy lottery tickets.

Face it, poor kids get lousy schooling which helps keep them poor. Everyone is out to protect their own. White folks believe that if they help minorities get good educations it will cost them jobs. So they vote GOP and hope to keep the minorities at a disadvantage...


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: Innvertigo]
    #445335 - 11/03/01 02:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

All that money and effort spent on educating people, if the government were smart they would institue a system of schooling that would be self dependent in terms of funding. For Example .. Cuba's school system works like this students show up and work the fields, "farm", half of the day and then receive instruction the other half. It may seem like work, but that seems to improve the economy, or something? What do you think?


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #445396 - 11/03/01 04:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I was not taking a stance on this issue, I was just pointing out that his example was not always what happens.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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Invisiblefuzzysquirelnuts
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: MokshaMan]
    #446021 - 11/03/01 09:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i goto the school for a bunch of fuckups (alternative highschool) and it is better than any school ive ever been to just because they have extra funding for thew school just due to the "special needs of at risk students"...dam never mind im not getting anywhere with this (maybe someone can pull something out of this?)


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were all retarded sometimes


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: fuzzysquirelnuts]
    #446393 - 11/04/01 07:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

squirrelmuts, I know what you're saying... Sometimes it's like that, and I'd say rightfully so. Some people think that the extra "value" provided at your school is being wasted. I don't know, if you look at it hard the lines of ethics always get blured. The average kid usually does get overlooked. Those under and over always get the attention. That's why you have underachievers and attempts at overachievers.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Something For Nothing [Re: ElPrimo]
    #447448 - 11/05/01 08:09 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

if you spent as much time studying as you do whining you'd get a full ride scholarship..you're pathetic

****Face it, poor kids get lousy schooling which helps keep them poor***

No...money doesn't mean shit when these boneheads you refer to don't even know what 2+2 is. and have no intention on trying to figure it out.

****Everyone is out to protect their own***

This is why you are a socialist. (look it up..it may look familiar) It is not the responsibility of others to take care of that fuckup that doesn't want to work. School is hard and if you can't take it..well the world needs dishwashers.

****White folks believe that if they help minorities get good educations it will cost them jobs****

Aren't you white? are you a hypocrite?...and you can't be too poor..you do have a computer......or does that not count...cry me a fucking river.

****So they vote GOP and hope to keep the minorities at a disadvantage****

Like they're any different then the socialist liberals


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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