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InvisibleSinbad
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The Awakened View *DELETED*
    #4346016 - 06/28/05 04:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Sinbad

Reason for deletion: tired of verbiage


Edited by Sinbad (06/28/05 06:10 AM)

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346143 - 06/28/05 06:54 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

How attached is your ego to this 'awakened view?'


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Put that monkey back in the oven.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346154 - 06/28/05 07:08 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Must you really know the concepts to be spiritually awakened? Must you even be able to speak and understand language?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346162 - 06/28/05 07:19 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:

After that we need to practice remaining in the state of equanimity where no notion of self is held in mind, the state of egolessness.(non-meditation). This solves the entire problem. Its like cutting the tree at the root: all branches, twigs, leaves wither at the same time. To have dissolved ego-clinging and to be stable in the knowledge that realizes egolessness is simply another description of freedom, liberation, great peace, or "The Awakened View". This is extremely profound, and it is real.




Why do we need to do this? Go ahead and deny your instincts, your humanness, in an attempt at something intangible. What is the point?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: looner2]
    #4346185 - 06/28/05 07:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

My wife collects magnificent recipe books, but hardly cooks.
She has great respect for recipes.
I make something like bouillabaise every day with no recipe.
I have hunger and routine driving those actions.

some feed on recipes, some feed on showing them to others; well, some old recipes are really great; without traditionalists we might forget them.

I think that is what is happenning here. A connaiseur of spiritual recipes has presented another for admiration and critique.

I forget was that a cup of sugar or 2 spoons of honey...


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: looner2]
    #4346195 - 06/28/05 07:55 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:

After that we need to practice remaining in the state of equanimity where no notion of self is held in mind, the state of egolessness.(non-meditation). This solves the entire problem. Its like cutting the tree at the root: all branches, twigs, leaves wither at the same time. To have dissolved ego-clinging and to be stable in the knowledge that realizes egolessness is simply another description of freedom, liberation, great peace, or "The Awakened View". This is extremely profound, and it is real.




Why do we need to do this? Go ahead and deny your instincts, your humanness, in an attempt at something intangible. What is the point?




How did you come to the conclusion that im denying anything? If you have no problems and you are perfectly happy as you are, then you don't need this.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4346199 - 06/28/05 07:56 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Must you really know the concepts to be spiritually awakened? Must you even be able to speak and understand language?




No not exclusivley, but it certainly helps to know the theory, before you practice anything.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346226 - 06/28/05 08:25 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I understand Sinbad, but how many of us are ready to let go this society and this "system" ?

Egolessness, if taken objectively, involves the suppression of many social interactions. An ego-less person will hardly function in a egoistical system - like the western materialistic system -, that's why really ego-less person choose to live alone or among equals.

Egolessness is an ideal, as some other ultimate ideals, we have to work hard to achieve it. We can feel free even if incarcerated in the worst dungeon as long we have ideals. But at the end what really counts is not reality itself, but the way we see it. Egolessness is just a way to change it, but even after living under it, you still matter, or else you wouldn't be practicing it.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: MAIA]
    #4346244 - 06/28/05 08:40 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
I understand Sinbad, but how many of us are ready to let go this society and this "system" ?

Egolessness, if taken objectively, involves the suppression of many social interactions. An ego-less person will hardly function in a egoistical system - like the western materialistic system -, that's why really ego-less person choose to live alone or among equals.

Egolessness is an ideal, as some other ultimate ideals, we have to work hard to achieve it. We can feel free even if incarcerated in the worst dungeon as long we have ideals. But at the end what really counts is not reality itself, but the way we see it. Egolessness is just a way to change it, but even after living under it, you still matter, or else you wouldn't be practicing it.

MAIA




Its just not true that in a western society one cannot function being ego-less. People creating such limitations about ego-lessness , but the truth is, that there is none, this sense of "ego" is what limits us spiritually. The only thing that changes if you are ego-less, is you state of mind and attitude, you become happy, content and more compassionate. For example, when dreaming, if you notice that its a dream, does that mean you cease to be able to function within that dream? When i lucid dream, i just continue doing everything in the dream, the only difference is that I'm aware that it is a dream, so things don't effect me emtionally in the same way as if i took it for reality, i can relax, meditate and take control, in fact one can function without limitation if one realizes, when dreaming, that one is in fact dreaming.

Egolessness is not an ideal held by the ego. :lol:

Egolessness is simply when one investigates into the nature of the 'self' and discovers that in fact, there is no 'self' or 'ego' that exists. There is no permanent, self-existing entity there, everything is interdependent upon everything else. And everything is equally empty of independent existence, and equally dependent upon space for its manifestation. The only reason you would practice, is to get more used to and familiar with that realization.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/28/05 09:49 AM)

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346355 - 06/28/05 09:53 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Egolessness is not an ideal held by the ego.

Egolessness is simply when one investigates into the nature of the 'self' and discovers that in fact, there is no 'self' or 'ego' that exists. There is no permanent, self-existing entity there, everything is interdependent upon everything else. And everything is equally empty of independent existence, and equally dependent upon space for its manifestation. The only reason you would practice, is to get more used to and familiar with that realization.




Are you aware there are different concepts of egolessness ? :wink:
But anyway, if defined by buddhism i guess you're right ...  :smirk:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: MAIA]
    #4346364 - 06/28/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah sorry about that. I was just comming from my POV. Of course i realize that theer are other definitions of "ego". I just never took them into consideration when writing my post.  :tongue:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346431 - 06/28/05 10:39 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"I","me","myself" ... vohara-sacca.:shocked:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: MAIA]
    #4346435 - 06/28/05 10:44 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

*** remember to leave those words out of ** posts in future master  :japsmile:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346469 - 06/28/05 11:00 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Offlinedante
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: MAIA]
    #4346483 - 06/28/05 11:05 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"After that we need to practice remaining in the state of equanimity where no notion of self is held in mind, the state of egolessness.(non-meditation). "

I don't understand why you call this practice non-meditation. Could you explain?


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: dante]
    #4346847 - 06/28/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yes of course. Meditation involves some effort of anazlysis, concentration or visualization. Whereas non-meditation, implies just letting go in a state of total relaxation and eqinimity and remaining that way.

In mediiation, one recognises when one is distracted, and returns there attention back to the object of meditation, where in non-meditation, when one gets distracted, one simply recognizes that, lets go, and returns to relaxed equinimity again.

But first one has to meditate, in order to calm the agitated mind. Them when one is calm, then one can apply the method of non-meditation.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4346891 - 06/28/05 01:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

after samatha, vipassana starts anyway.
call it what you like,
concentration and relaxation lead into insight.

even if you start with insight practice, it is samatha until relaxed and concentration is established.

even if you start with chakkra concentration, after relaxation is established it turns to insight/vipassana.

sure - tons of recipes.
when hungry - eat.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4346956 - 06/28/05 01:52 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Samantha, Vipassanah...relaxation

are you guy talking about hookers?  :smirk:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4346985 - 06/28/05 01:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Well, not exactly. Some people get very stuck in Shamtha practice, and mistake the stable experiences of bliss, clarity and non-thought that arise during shamtha for the state of liberation. Most people really do have to remember to relax and turn the concentration inward, applying the method of Vipsassana to attain liberation through insight. Of course for some, this comes naturally, but not for all. That why its best to explain Shamatha practice as something other than Vipassana, and make the distinction, otherwise one can get very stuck in their practice. Why else would Shamatha be called something different than Vipassana?


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Edited by Sinbad (06/28/05 02:04 PM)

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OfflineVulture
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4347352 - 06/28/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

i feel good because of this post


i need to quit doubting myself when it comes to these things.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Vulture]
    #4347551 - 06/28/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Im glad it has benefitted you in some way. :grin:

And dont worry about self doubt. I continually doubted my 'self' until i discovered that it did'nt exist.  :wink:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4347631 - 06/28/05 05:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

One question, why do anything, learn anything, change anything if you don't exist?

If you don't exist, why not just not exist and watch TV or live like a wild animal for the next cube of sugar?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinedante
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4347723 - 06/28/05 06:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I understand what you mean, for some reason I had thought you were leaving out the necessary actual practice.
Of course, practice turns to non-practice, doing to non-doing, and meditation to non-meditation.

I think it was William Blake who said:
"A fool who persists in his folly will become wise."

It's not necessarily my view concerning meditation, you know, as a folly, but I deem it somewhat true. It makes sense. But what am I saying? You are surely familiar with the amazing paradoxical nature of this whole ordeal!

OldWoodSpecker I will give you my view of this. In meditation I have seen something inside me that can best be called The Way, or the Tao, but you could call it by any name you like. Meditation does not try to turn you into an animal by eliminating the self. Meditation eliminates the self, and thus you may live fully human, because you couldn't be anything else! It's not merely becoming lazy, its just becoming more intuned with yourself as it is in the present moment.
It's like you are getting out of your own way, so to speak.

It's not like you lose motivation to do things. In fact, you do things with more attention, because you exist entirely in the present moment.

Like I said above, the entire thing is paradoxical, and besides that, its ineffable, meaning I can't really truly explain this in words. And yet I try..


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

Edited by dante (06/28/05 06:09 PM)

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: dante]
    #4347805 - 06/28/05 06:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

you said:

"It's not like you lose motivation to do things"

"you"? How can "you" not lose motivation, when there is no you?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinedante
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4347936 - 06/28/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I understand the confusion.

This confusion exists because we have become so attached to words, and the illusions they create.
The self part is paradoxical, I know, and I am sorry because I cannot give a good enough explanation when I would really like to.

But I'll try...
Its the notion of yourself, the falsehood created by thoughts, the "you" that doesn't exist except only in thoughts. Its not the reality of you. You, as a body, are still there.

I hope someone with more wisdom can try to explain this.


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: dante]
    #4347956 - 06/28/05 07:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I see no reason to say that "I" doesn't exist.
Saying that ego only thinks he exists but he actually doesn't is a paradox. Something is happening here, exchange of energy, if both of us don't exist, then what generates this energy?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineVulture
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4347978 - 06/28/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

everyone in my life besides by close friends give me shit for living entirely in the present moment. They say i have no future...because i dont think about the future...i think about the future...but i act according to whats going on right now...cause im here now.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Offlinedante
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Vulture]
    #4348046 - 06/28/05 07:54 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Old Wood its the notion, the thought, of yourself in your mind. You are not a thought, you are a reality. What a thought of "you" is, is best expressed as "The finger pointing at the moon." Take the example: You are pointing to the moon, soon you began to confuse the finger used to point to the moon with the actual moon itself. Symbols and words cannot express true reality, it is in their nature to point to other symbols and words. True reality is (*Slams hand on the desk!*)

Vulture, there is of course no reason to think about the future in practical terms, we all have to live. Its really the attaching yourself to the future and to the past that is the error. Neither have existence, only now does.


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: dante]
    #4348166 - 06/28/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

yea, but if ego does not exist, why does everyone continue to use this word: your ego this, your ego that. There is no ego, so ego does nothing


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4348230 - 06/28/05 08:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:

After that we need to practice remaining in the state of equanimity where no notion of self is held in mind, the state of egolessness.(non-meditation). This solves the entire problem. Its like cutting the tree at the root: all branches, twigs, leaves wither at the same time. To have dissolved ego-clinging and to be stable in the knowledge that realizes egolessness is simply another description of freedom, liberation, great peace, or "The Awakened View". This is extremely profound, and it is real.




Why do we need to do this? Go ahead and deny your instincts, your humanness, in an attempt at something intangible. What is the point?




How did you come to the conclusion that im denying anything? If you have no problems and you are perfectly happy as you are, then you don't need this.




What is awakened? Egoless? That is what I gathered from your post, and it seems others as well.

Egoless is weakness. You are denying the strife that comes with being human and having desires.

Run away... run away!

But alas, it is "awakened" because we really do love whatever the pitiful deem worthy.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4348256 - 06/28/05 09:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So nothing is real in itself




Including all of reality I presume?

This is embracing what, solipsism? Absurdism?

Quote:

But we obviously still have problems. Our mental suffering, although decreased slightly, is still very much present within our dualistic mind. The reason for this is that the notions of "Me" and "I" are held so strongly that it is taken as an absolute given - yet it is mistaken. To reverse this misconception of an existing "I", we need to thouroughly investigate and come to the conclusion that their is no real ego (meditation helps with this).




Explain the logic that there is no I or you.

Our mental suffering is only a problem because we see it as a problem. It comes from the viewpoint that our reality is significant and completely personal. Yet if we transcend this basic viewpoint and look at our true scientific observations and see suffering in the context of evolution, then we realize that suffering is not a problem; it is a cure. Suffering is the battle that helps our survival, and without it we would've died off long ago.

Meditation works because you relax certain parts of the brain, but the brain still exists in your reality. It's only your perception of the brain that you are changing, yet once you come out of meditation those areas of the ego and this time and place return. Either way it exists purely within your brain, so meditation and enlightenment is no release different than any other.

Quote:

This solves the entire problem. Its like cutting the tree at the root: all branches, twigs, leaves wither at the same time.




That's a good analogy. You're trying to kill an ancient necessary component to yourself by killing the ego. The ego was developed because in our humanity it is essential for the species' survival. If all humans become egoless, we'd die off. In that context, enlightened people might just be a rare mutation that'll kill themselves off because they'll be less likely (much less likely? How many Buddhas have sex?) to reproduce than someone consumed in the passion of their ego.

Quote:

To have dissolved ego-clinging and to be stable in the knowledge that realizes egolessness is simply another description of freedom, liberation, great peace, or "The Awakened View". This is extremely profound, and it is real.




And is as much a part of the ego as any other. Enlightenment is simply an illusion of the ego, where you withdraw so far from your normal reality that you no longer realize you're still in the grip of this consciousness, this brain you inhabit. But just because you have your eyes closed it doesn't mean you're not living in the same house.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineVulture
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Ravus]
    #4348293 - 06/28/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

buddhists have sex


its usually monks of any religion and the gurus that dont


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

Edited by Vulture (06/28/05 09:22 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4348390 - 06/28/05 09:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Well, not exactly. Some people get very stuck in Shamtha practice, and mistake the stable experiences of bliss, clarity and non-thought that arise during shamtha for the state of liberation. Most people really do have to remember to relax and turn the concentration inward, applying the method of Vipsassana to attain liberation through insight. Of course for some, this comes naturally, but not for all. That why its best to explain Shamatha practice as something other than Vipassana, and make the distinction, otherwise one can get very stuck in their practice. Why else would Shamatha be called something different than Vipassana?




the reason why they are separated is to teach a few little things that may be of use when the student is ready, aside from that, the huge cutural range of meditators using eastern techniques has given rise to sects, each of which is the right one (of course).

you can ask any vipassana teacher directly - "does vipassana (insight) begin because I practice it or does it come after samatha (relaxation) has been established?"

so you get some teaching about how to concentrate and relax, and some additional teaching about how to develop insight (which means little until it is of need, of use).

the yogas are about the former (concentration, chakkras) and they do naturally graduate into insight practice even though there is a cultural bias to assume they don't.

taoism considers both circulation and concentration equally, and enmeshes insights about both that emerge as the student progresses.

zen seems to garner great following by addressing the gap in human experience directly. (it almost serves to prove that no recipe is as good as any recipe)

I don't really think that any of these has a much higher percentage of realized sangha than an average church or synagogue, but it is valuable to have these techniques - especially to help integrate dreams, life, and visionary experience.


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Offlinedante
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4348456 - 06/28/05 09:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Explain the logic that there is no I or you."

'I' and 'you' are words. They aren't reality. People become attached to the identity that they feel belongs in their name, or 'I'. They are words & symbols, I am not 'dante' (in fact my real name is Andrew, but I am not Andrew either!).


--------------------
The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Vulture]
    #4349238 - 06/29/05 01:09 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vulture said:
buddhists have sex


its usually monks of any religion and the gurus that dont




Buddhas, not Buddhists. To my knowledge, you don't hear of many truely enlightened people having sex; their followers probably will, but rarely do the gurus themselves.

Except for Mohammed. He banged out quite a few kids if I remember correctly.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Ravus]
    #4349516 - 06/29/05 03:05 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Vulture said:
buddhists have sex


its usually monks of any religion and the gurus that dont




Buddhas, not Buddhists. To my knowledge, you don't hear of many truely enlightened people having sex; their followers probably will, but rarely do the gurus themselves.

Except for Mohammed. He banged out quite a few kids if I remember correctly.




well, lots of buddhist monks (who might be buddhas - realized ones) become married monks, which is known as Anagarika.

they still have tremendous respect from the community. and they have not quite "disrobed" though the robe is no longer a monk's robe exactly either. This applies both to mahayana and to hinayana sects. many married teachers.

and that just touches on the legal hetero sex.

the practice of celibacy is an invitation to be trusted, and is part of the standard spiritual quest (at least for a while)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4349554 - 06/29/05 03:45 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
yea, but if ego does not exist, why does everyone continue to use this word: your ego this, your ego that. There is no ego, so ego does nothing




Exactly, because they are under the delusion that their is an independent self-existing entity, when in fact, none exists. Everything only exists in dependence u[on other things, and all other things exist in complete dependence upon space for their manifestation. Nothing exits independently of itself. Its not that things don't exist, they just dint exists as we think they do. We label them with qualities of permanence and self-existence where none exists.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Ravus]
    #4349558 - 06/29/05 03:48 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Have you never heard of Tantric sex :lol:

Or course Gurus, that do not have the vows of monks have sex. its a fallicy nto think otherwise. Take Tulku Urgyen for example. He had three sons who are all enlightned beings. This is a very good way to preserve his teachings. :lol:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4349874 - 06/29/05 08:36 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
yea, but if ego does not exist, why does everyone continue to use this word: your ego this, your ego that. There is no ego, so ego does nothing




Exactly, because they are under the delusion that their is an independent self-existing entity, when in fact, none exists. Everything only exists in dependence u[on other things, and all other things exist in complete dependence upon space for their manifestation. Nothing exits independently of itself. Its not that things don't exist, they just dint exists as we think they do. We label them with qualities of permanence and self-existence where none exists.




Just because an arm is not independant of the body, that doesn't mean that arm does not exist.
A drop of watter in a continuous river does exist, it's just connected to other drops that form the river.

You can't say that ego is in illusion of being separate, and that he doesn't exist because of that. He does exist, otherwise there would be nobody to be in delusion.

You DO exist, you may be in illusion of being separate, but connected or not, a part of something or not, you do exist.

The left side of the stone does exist, as much as the right side of stone. A 1/8 if the mass of stone does exist as it is a part of the whole mass of the stone. You don't heave to be a separate entity to exist.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Ravus]
    #4349961 - 06/29/05 09:26 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Including all of reality I presume?

This is embracing what, solipsism? Absurdism?




It is embracing the fact that all phenomenon and states of existance do not contain any inherent meaning or definition. It would be interesting to see anyone deny this.

Quote:

But we obviously still have problems. Our mental suffering, although decreased slightly, is still very much present within our dualistic mind. The reason for this is that the notions of "Me" and "I" are held so strongly that it is taken as an absolute given - yet it is mistaken. To reverse this misconception of an existing "I", we need to thouroughly investigate and come to the conclusion that their is no real ego (meditation helps with this).




Quote:


Explain the logic that there is no I or you.




I wouldn't personally state that there isn't an "I"; however, I would reduce any notion of a sense of self to that of simple mental programming and identification with various aspects of reality. Obviously, a self does exist, just as every other aspect of this reality, but this self is not known to us, it is a totality of who we are. One's sense of self does not exist as anything more than an abstraction - one's true self is pure being.

Quote:


Our mental suffering is only a problem because we see it as a problem.




Or suffering is only suffering because we see it as suffering? :grin:

Any experience of suffering is a problem by the exact nature of what suffering is, obviously. Suffering serves no purpose, beyond that of helping one bring an end to that suffering (but that purpose only exists if one is suffering in the first place - it isn't necessary and it is not, from an aware, more encompassing view, beneficial).

Quote:


It comes from the viewpoint that our reality is significant and completely personal. Yet if we transcend this basic viewpoint and look at our true scientific observations and see suffering in the context of evolution, then we realize that suffering is not a problem; it is a cure. Suffering is the battle that helps our survival, and without it we would've died off long ago.




So suffering has brought mankind to a further point in time. That in itself is not signifigant. Other methods of operation prove to be more capable of ensuring one's species survival. Just because one system has produced some result does not mean that it is the "correct" (:lol:) system, or that other systems work towards those same results more productively and efficently.

It should be plain to see that a system of operation for us humans that both ensures our future survival and provides for us a total, complete, fully aware experience, without pointless suffering, produces better results for us. :wink:

Quote:


Meditation works because you relax certain parts of the brain, but the brain still exists in your reality.




*wonders aloud how many practitioners think that, by meditating, they are making their brains disappear* :lol:

Quote:


It's only your perception of the brain that you are changing, yet once you come out of meditation those areas of the ego and this time and place return. Either way it exists purely within your brain, so meditation and enlightenment is no release different than any other.




Perception of the brain? Does that mean that, before meditating, one thinks that their brain is a good guy, but, after meditating, one sees their brain for what it is? Where did speak of the brain come about from? This whole topic focuses strongly on the phenomenon known as the mind. The brain does not directly deal with perception, beyond whatever role it provides for the mind.

One doesn't address technical questions about Windows or Instant Messenger by pointing at one's hard drive and speaking about one's processor. :grin:

By the way, it is revealing that you think of meditation or "enlightenment" as a "release". What is being released? It is simply experience.

Quote:


That's a good analogy. You're trying to kill an ancient necessary component to yourself by killing the ego. The ego was developed because in our humanity it is essential for the species' survival.




The original mental programming that evolved into one's abstract sense of self might have been essential for the species survival at one time; however, that inital role was simply that of flight vs. flight, and its usage applicable only at time of direct threat to one's life.

That original mechanism is now a very complex abstraction known as our sense of self, an idea of who we are, or an idea of what is, and it is operating in all of our experiences. We naturally are who we are, reality naturally is what it is, and thinking through an obstructive abstraction that defines for us what is directly knowable harms our experience of life and our ability to sustain ourselves and our species further.

One does not need a seperating experience in order to survive, we are more than capable of being fully aware of our experience and being capable of making conscious choices that effect that experience. Such an abstraction as a sense of self simply cannot keep up with that, which is why we suffer - suffering, in itself, an exclamation that directly points towards the very error in our mental programming that produces that suffering.

Quote:


If all humans become egoless, we'd die off. In that context, enlightened people might just be a rare mutation that'll kill themselves off because they'll be less likely (much less likely? How many Buddhas have sex?) to reproduce than someone consumed in the passion of their ego.




This is based on nothing but your own misconceptions. You act as if, through meditation, one becomes "enlightened", which means that they suddenly become incapable of acting in any manner, as if they start to twitch, roll on the ground, and either starve to death, or perhaps get eaten by some animal. :lol:

The whole concept of meditation and "enlightenment" is to realize more awareness, to more fully know reality and oneself. I, for one, think one that more fully understands the nature of life is probably more capable of fully taking part of that nature, eh? :smirk:

Quote:


And is as much a part of the ego as any other. Enlightenment is simply an illusion of the ego, where you withdraw so far from your normal reality that you no longer realize you're still in the grip of this consciousness, this brain you inhabit. But just because you have your eyes closed it doesn't mean you're not living in the same house.




Demonstration of one's misconceptions on this subject. :wink:

There is no withdrawl - there is no illusion - no closed eyes. The entire concept of "enlightenment" is to become aware, to realize abstraction and illusion for what it is, and to open ones eyes to a more full and vivid experience of this "normal reality", as you prescribe it. It is as if someone told you turn left, and you turned right instead.  :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4354827 - 06/30/05 09:50 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
yea, but if ego does not exist, why does everyone continue to use this word: your ego this, your ego that. There is no ego, so ego does nothing




Exactly, because they are under the delusion that their is an independent self-existing entity, when in fact, none exists. Everything only exists in dependence u[on other things, and all other things exist in complete dependence upon space for their manifestation. Nothing exits independently of itself. Its not that things don't exist, they just dint exists as we think they do. We label them with qualities of permanence and self-existence where none exists.




Just because an arm is not independant of the body, that doesn't mean that arm does not exist.
A drop of watter in a continuous river does exist, it's just connected to other drops that form the river.

You can't say that ego is in illusion of being separate, and that he doesn't exist because of that. He does exist, otherwise there would be nobody to be in delusion.

You DO exist, you may be in illusion of being separate, but connected or not, a part of something or not, you do exist.

The left side of the stone does exist, as much as the right side of stone. A 1/8 if the mass of stone does exist as it is a part of the whole mass of the stone. You don't heave to be a separate entity to exist.




Reread my post. I didnt say that we dont exist. I said that we dont exist as we think we do. There is an excellent book by Lama Mipam, called calm and clear which includes a meditation called "The Wheel of Analytical Meditation", whereby the practioner exmaines every part of the body, breakinng it down further and further and further with the mind, until one realizes the space from which all physical manifeststaions arise.

Then one examines the mind, and observes where thoughts manifest from, where they arise and where they disapea. One discovers the ground of all thought is the space of the empty cognizant nature of mind. From this realization one rests in a state of calm and clarity, knowing the empty nature of all existing phenomena.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4354930 - 06/30/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

the ego construct exists as a wave form or discontinuous texture in the life stream of a person.

denial of it's existence and of its function is pompous, i.e. for show, i.e. demonstrative of part of the very texture of expression that the ego is often known for - i.e. to seem to be what it is not, an empty sham etc.

while investigating ego's dynamics, you can see that a natural progression exists of events stimulating recalled conditioning of the individual and then the upwelling of resulting expressions, over and over and over again - reflexively. (pratyeka sambhava)

the ego is not more than a texture pattern or conditioned wave form in the life stream because it is not a continuous solid thing, only a series of expressions from our conditioning.

to think ego is a solid thing, other than a series of expressions we have learned, is to be tricked, but to convince yourself that it is not a real thing at all, for any reason is duplicitous, or fake, and that goes for Sinbad too who is earnestly studying this now.

it is real, it represents how one reacts, and often, how one believes one persists - this last part is the part that dissolves slowly with insight.

One knows one exists, in moments, bits, as a wave form, on for a bit then off, then on again. One sees how it is natural and one does not need to act instinctively (lusting and fearing, yearning and being defensive) when they become accustomed to what is naturally going on.

then like a gardener they can cultivate good expressions, and develop comtempt for the trick of pretense (the weeds keep returning), and compassion for the beings and expressions that are not integrated with this awakened nature.


--------------------
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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4354998 - 06/30/05 11:06 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I like to think about the ego/personality as a collection of knick knacks. We never intended to build such a collection, but everyone else had one, and our parents said we should, so we just keep buying them. Some of them are truly tacky, some are souvenirs of trips we've taken, some were gifts from people who thought they knew us, and many are representations of the person we want others to think we are.

Our daily expressions are the glass-fronted cabinet we use to display our collection, and we like others to stop and admire our knick-knacks. Whenever someone criticizes or questions our collection, we become hurt and defensive. We may point out the tackiness of their collection of plaster ducks--who are they to talk about our ceramic Raggedy Ann?

If this sounds absurd, think about how seriously we take our personality! The silly things we pretend to be are not who we ARE. The qualities we parade in front of our boss, our boyfriend/girlfriend, our parents, often have as little to do with our essential being as a ceramic Raggedy Ann.

I enjoy taking my (and others') ego structure lightly. I find that laughter is freeing and reminds me of my joyful nature.

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4355754 - 06/30/05 02:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the ego construct exists as a wave form or discontinuous texture in the life stream of a person.

denial of it's existence and of its function is pompous, i.e. for show, i.e. demonstrative of part of the very texture of expression that the ego is often known for - i.e. to seem to be what it is not, an empty sham etc.

Through realization one knows that the ego, is nothing but an empty sham propagated through conditioned notions of self-existence. On another note, how can something that isn't solid have texture?

while investigating ego's dynamics, you can see that a natural progression exists of events stimulating recalled conditioning of the individual and then the upwelling of resulting expressions, over and over and over again - reflexively. (pratyeka sambhava)

I'm gonna look this one up. This may just be another foggy interpretation, as it does not seem very clear to me at all

the ego is not more than a texture pattern or conditioned wave form in the life stream because it is not a continuous solid thing, only a series of expressions from our conditioning.

Expressions from our conditioning? yeah OK, we agree in some sense

to think ego is a solid thing, other than a series of expressions we have learned, is to be tricked, but to convince yourself that it is not a real thing at all, for any reason is duplicitous, or fake, and that goes for Sinbad too who is earnestly studying this now.

If its not solid, and only a conditioned notion. Then how can you say that it exists in any way, shape or form? After investigate ion one realizes that it does not have any real existence whatsoever

it is real, it represents how one reacts, and often, how one believes one persists - this last part is the part that dissolves slowly with insight.

Does a conditioned notion have any real existence?

One knows one exists, in moments, bits, as a wave form, on for a bit then off, then on again. One sees how it is natural and one does not need to act instinctively (lusting and fearing, yearning and being defensive) when they become accustomed to what is naturally going on.

That's just called being aware of ones conditioning in a gross sense. Being present and aware of conditioning and expressions, does not give validation to any ideas of ego or self-hood

then like a gardener they can cultivate good expressions, and develop com tempt for the trick of pretense (the weeds keep returning), and compassion for the beings and expressions that are not integrated with this awakened nature.

That sounds pretty spot on. :grin:






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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4356015 - 06/30/05 03:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It is embracing the fact that all phenomenon and states of existance do not contain any inherent meaning or definition. It would be interesting to see anyone deny this.




Agreed.

Quote:

however, I would reduce any notion of a sense of self to that of simple mental programming and identification with various aspects of reality.




What else is there? Isn't everything simply identification with aspects of reality?

Quote:

but this self is not known to us, it is a totality of who we are. One's sense of self does not exist as anything more than an abstraction - one's true self is pure being.




This self is not known to me? How so? I know what my body looks like, what my thoughts are, what my basic personality is consisted of. How is the self not known? What exactly are we missing here?

You say our true self is pure being, but this seems to just be a spiritual quote without much meaning. "Pure being" just means it exists, right? That doesn't add anything to our self; since we're discussing it, we must assume that its basis if "pure being" and then above that are its unique characteristics.

Quote:

Or suffering is only suffering because we see it as suffering?




No, a problem isn't the same as suffering. I say suffering is only a problem because we see it as a problem, and by that I mean many people see suffering as a major flaw with life, that odd part of life that isn't meant to be. Some people only see suffering as a hindrance.

Yet I would dispute this. Suffering is an essential part of the human species. Similar to how if we did not feel pain we would be putting our bodies in extreme danger, if we did not feel suffering we would putting our individual self and the entire species in danger. If we didn't feel suffering when we raped and killed someone, what's to stop us? All we get from it is pleasure in the end, and no remorse.

Quote:

Suffering serves no purpose, beyond that of helping one bring an end to that suffering




Just like pain, correct? The entire purpose of pain is to help us bring an end to feeling pain by discouraging us from going to situations that would inspire pain in the first place. However, like pain, this is unrealistic; in the world, we will always make mistakes and feel physical pain, just as we will always makes mistakes and feel suffering.

Quote:

So suffering has brought mankind to a further point in time. That in itself is not signifigant.




I disagree. Anything that has brought us this far should be not disposed of in a generation or two; in nature, if something is no longer necessary, it dies off over tens or hundreds of millenia. The truth is, I believe suffering still is significant and necessary for the survival of humanity.

Quote:

Other methods of operation prove to be more capable of ensuring one's species survival. Just because one system has produced some result does not mean that it is the "correct" system, or that other systems work towards those same results more productively and efficently.




That's true; there is always more than one path we can take. But the reality is that nature has already developed suffering for humanity; we instinctively feel suffering during certain situations, so for us, it currently is the "correct" system because by using it we're still alive.

Quote:

It should be plain to see that a system of operation for us humans that both ensures our future survival and provides for us a total, complete, fully aware experience, without pointless suffering, produces better results for us.




Suffering is pointless? Au contraire, suffering indeed was developed for the point of survival, just like pain and sadness and anger and fear. We'll never experience a total, "fully aware" system of reality because we're subjective, flawed, mortal, constantly evolving. We'll never be fully anything, because in nature, you can always evolve more; there is no end to the bridge.

Quote:

By the way, it is revealing that you think of meditation or "enlightenment" as a "release". What is being released?




Suffering and desire? The "ego"?

Quote:

The original mental programming that evolved into one's abstract sense of self might have been essential for the species survival at one time; however, that inital role was simply that of flight vs. flight, and its usage applicable only at time of direct threat to one's life.




I'm willing to bet it goes further than that. There are easier ways to use fight or flight without developing a complex sense of self and an entire conscious ego.

Quote:

We naturally are who we are, reality naturally is what it is, and thinking through an obstructive abstraction that defines for us what is directly knowable harms our experience of life and our ability to sustain ourselves and our species further.




But the ego is part of who we are. The thought of the ego is who we are, the perception of the ego is who we are. It sounds like you're trying to split us into two parts, one of the real us and one of the fake us that "harms our expience of life", yet they are one and the same. All aspects of us are who we are; there is no differentiating, and if humans were carrying around excess aspects of harmful mental functioning, this would die out over time.

Quote:

Such an abstraction as a sense of self simply cannot keep up with that, which is why we suffer - suffering, in itself, an exclamation that directly points towards the very error in our mental programming that produces that suffering.




So you think evolution created the complex feeling and variations of suffering... simply to respond to suffering? :confused:

That's like saying pain was developed to point towards the very error in our physical body that causes pain. But that's confusing the issue; the pain itself is irrelevant, and simply a reaction to possible situations that will harm our bodies or self. It is the exact same with suffering; suffering was developed as a warning signal to aspects of our life going wrong, an internal siren to alert us.

Quote:

This is based on nothing but your own misconceptions. You act as if, through meditation, one becomes "enlightened", which means that they suddenly become incapable of acting in any manner, as if they start to twitch, roll on the ground, and either starve to death, or perhaps get eaten by some animal.




I did not say it's immediate like that, but if you think of the Buddha, over time, which would have a better chance of survival: a group of enlightened Buddhas or a group of unenlightened, survivalist marines? Enlightenment doesn't seem to enhance our survival in anyway. Does enlightenment help us find food? Defend ourselves? Reproduce? In the end, enlightenment seems to only be a hindrance to survival, or at most completely neutral; in no way does it seem to help the continuation of humanity.

Quote:

The entire concept of "enlightenment" is to become aware, to realize abstraction and illusion for what it is, and to open ones eyes to a more full and vivid experience of this "normal reality", as you prescribe it.




And what's the point of this? Without any pseudoscientific ideas like karma or an afterlife, please explain to me how this has any useful purpose to our survival, our self or humanity as a whole.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Veritas]
    #4358506 - 07/01/05 04:31 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I like to think about the ego/personality as a collection of knick knacks. We never intended to build such a collection, but everyone else had one, and our parents said we should, so we just keep buying them. Some of them are truly tacky, some are souvenirs of trips we've taken, some were gifts from people who thought they knew us, and many are representations of the person we want others to think we are.

Our daily expressions are the glass-fronted cabinet we use to display our collection, and we like others to stop and admire our knick-knacks. Whenever someone criticizes or questions our collection, we become hurt and defensive. We may point out the tackiness of their collection of plaster ducks--who are they to talk about our ceramic Raggedy Ann?

If this sounds absurd, think about how seriously we take our personality! The silly things we pretend to be are not who we ARE. The qualities we parade in front of our boss, our boyfriend/girlfriend, our parents, often have as little to do with our essential being as a ceramic Raggedy Ann.

I enjoy taking my (and others') ego structure lightly. I find that laughter is freeing and reminds me of my joyful nature.




great analogy

that knick knack displays in my store front too now.


--------------------
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Re: The Awakened View [Re: Sinbad]
    #4358518 - 07/01/05 04:41 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the ego construct exists as a wave form or discontinuous texture in the life stream of a person....[snip]...an empty sham etc.

Through realization one knows that the ego, is nothing but an empty sham propagated through conditioned notions of self-existence. On another note, how can something that isn't solid have texture? ....[snip]...









texture, sequence, cadence, pattern, design, imprint, signature, configuration, arrangement... are properties that that the physical world seems to have in the mind. are they real, is anything realer?


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