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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Dead Dogs
    #4344090 - 06/27/05 06:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Scientists in Pittsburgh have managed to drain the blood from a dog and replace it with chilled saline. The animals at that point are dead in a medical sense. After three hours they replace the blood and administer an electric shock with a defibrillator and the Dog comes back to life. This will be used on a person within the year. This seems to have deep philosophical implications. Here is the article: Zombie Dogs


Zombie Dog


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344150 - 06/27/05 07:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This is really unbelievable...very fascinating. Sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie.


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344198 - 06/27/05 07:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Wonderfull, sounds like something from Star Trek (being revived after hours)

But, what deep philosophical implications are you refering to?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344203 - 06/27/05 07:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, specifically life after death...do we have a soul...you know..the usual.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344205 - 06/27/05 07:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, but what does this tells us about afterlife, soul etc?
I think nothing


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344210 - 06/27/05 07:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This doesn't, but would not an experiement on a human? If the person is dead then they ARE dead. There isn't an almost. So, if there is life after death the person in question should experience it...if they do not that could well mean that we are but flesh. This state is not sleep it is death. Why would this not be the last word on this matter or would it?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344229 - 06/27/05 07:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

oh you mean a death-o-naut?
Yea that would be interesting, but then again there are potential problems with that experiment.

Peeople who experience NDE ARE dead, their brain is not working at all, and yet some say they experice something, while others just have a standard wake up with no memory.

My guess is that the results would be the same with a 3-hour experiment too. Some would report NDE experiences, some would say they experienced nothing.

It is possible that NDE experience happens because of DMT in the last second or two before losing consciousness, but people experience them for time that seems like hours, it can be time compression, same kind that happens when we dream (you dream almost hours, yet the dream last for a few seconds in reality)

Supose that a man comes back from a 3 hour death and reports angels and light and all that stuff. It is quite possible that he experienced it in the seconds when the brain was dying, and when he woke up it felt like he was conscious for 3 hours, and tells everyone all about it.

Whatever people report when they come back after 3 hours, or a day, or a week, we will be stuck with the same old dilemas.

There are always multiple ways to explain things.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/27/05 07:29 PM)


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344234 - 06/27/05 07:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Wow...the photo of the dog is not a great advertisement for this procedure! Not exactly your friendly neighborhood Golden Retriever, is he?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344237 - 06/27/05 07:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Peeople who experience NDE ARE dead"
I worked as an Emergency Medicqal Technician for a good while. I was taught in training that this is not the case...they are not dead.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344246 - 06/27/05 07:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, people are taught a lot of things..

What makes them alive then? No electricity in the brain, heart is not working, nothing in the body works, so what makes them alive?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344270 - 06/27/05 07:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Well, people are taught a lot of things.."

There is brain activity in such persons. There is electrical activity in the brain of a dead person for a couple of hours, but I am told it is of a different sort. There is no heart beat or pulse in clinical death. I would be inclined to trust medical training that I recieved...it was very good in all respects. You can dispute this, but please use facts and not assumptions that I must have been told wrong.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344314 - 06/27/05 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If there is electrical activity in the brain for a couple of hours, then what good would such a test do (3 hours dead) ?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344329 - 06/27/05 08:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is only residual electrical impulses that follows no pattern. During an NDE there is organized brain activity I am given to understanding.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344338 - 06/27/05 08:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well then you have been pointed to the wrong examples.
The cases that make the whole issue are those where there is no brain activity, those are the ones you read in books about NDE


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344351 - 06/27/05 08:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Anyway, even if ALL NDE experiences happen while there is still brain activity, what difference does it make how long do you leave the man dead? If he dreamed the whole NDE experience before he died, he will tell you about it even after a week of being really dead.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344416 - 06/27/05 08:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
This doesn't, but would not an experiement on a human? If the person is dead then they ARE dead. There isn't an almost. So, if there is life after death the person in question should experience it...if they do not that could well mean that we are but flesh. This state is not sleep it is death. Why would this not be the last word on this matter or would it?




Even if the persons "spirit" had an after death experience, there is no guarantee that he would remember it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Icelander]
    #4344509 - 06/27/05 09:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Even if the persons "spirit" had an after death experience, there is no guarantee that he would remember it."

Don't tell me that...I was already planning my next vacation...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344533 - 06/27/05 09:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So that's what you meant when you said you were ready to have your life back. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344538 - 06/27/05 09:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

When the dog comes back, are they violent and psychotic? Or just the same dog with the same personality?

Because they're really not zombies unless they're violent and psychotic. Not by my standards anyway...  :tongue:


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Veritas]
    #4344547 - 06/27/05 09:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Wow...the photo of the dog is not a great advertisement for this procedure!  Not exactly your friendly neighborhood Golden Retriever, is he?




How would you feel it they told you they were going to drain your blood and replace it with fucking salt? :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4344557 - 06/27/05 09:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nope they are not violent....but I would challenge you about zombies being "violent and psychotic". I tend to think that consuming living human flesh is just their nature. You are blinded by ethnocentrism...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Icelander]
    #4344558 - 06/27/05 09:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There's also some liquid involved... I imagine straight salt would be unpleasant.

That is... if you were alive and conscious during the procedure, which you obviously would not be.


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344573 - 06/27/05 09:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I was just trying to make a funny... kind of a wise-ass stereotype reference.

Of course, that is probably a sign that I'm subconsciously blinded by ethnocentrism...  :smirk:


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4344576 - 06/27/05 09:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
When the dog comes back, are they violent and psychotic? Or just the same dog with the same personality?

Because they're really not zombies unless they're violent and psychotic. Not by my standards anyway...  :tongue:




Zombies are not really violent, only in movies perhapse, but I think they are a bit stunned, and if they have a hangover.
I'm refering to those poisoned people that those Voodoo idiots use as slaves


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344584 - 06/27/05 09:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Zombies are not really violent, only in movies perhapse, but I think they are a bit stunned, and if they have a hangover.
I'm refering to those poisoned people that those Voodoo idiots use as slaves




Well, I'm referencing re-animated corpses. And last time I checked, they don't exist outside of the stereotypes of movies.

Except maybe the subject matter of this very thread...


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4344630 - 06/27/05 09:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well real zombies are not reanimated corpses. You probably heard about that old Voodoo practice when a guy that is good with chemistry and poisons, poisons a person, which renders it dead to the outside observer, their heartbeat is slowed down and and lifesigns are not detectable, so the person is proclaimed dead and burried. But the person is conscious all the time, in a half-dream state, but can't move or feel its body. Then later on, the witchdoctor (or whatever he is called) comes and burries the guy out, takes him somewhere and uses him as his slave. So nobody looks for the person anymore because he is proclaimed dead. Of course, that is not so often today because it is of course illegal, but there have been more recent cases where a person escapes and comes home, and of course everyone freaks out because they really thought he was dead.

There is another real-world meaning of the world Zombie

There are these wierd folks that learn to slown down their own metabolism some way, don't know the detail, and burry themselfs, I guess they fall in some sort of coma but they are alive, their body deteriorates, and then someone (with whom they had an agreement) burries them out a month later, and they look like walking dead people. I have no Idead why anyone would want to do that, but I've read a lot about it, there are even some pictures of these people how they look after it. It's amazing.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344633 - 06/27/05 09:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fucked up... but very informative! Thanks for elaborating.  :smile:


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4344638 - 06/27/05 09:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
There's also some liquid involved... I imagine straight salt would be unpleasant.

That is... if you were alive and conscious during the procedure, which you obviously would not be.




I also was making funny! :tongue: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4344639 - 06/27/05 09:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yea, and I believe the second kind of Zombies that I've described are some wierd tribes that life in Africa, but I'm not so sure.

The first kind is Jamaica or some other island that has Voodoo tradition


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4344649 - 06/27/05 09:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"The first kind is Jamaica or some other island that has Voodoo tradition"

Haiti


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4344652 - 06/27/05 09:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

yea, Thanks


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Icelander]
    #4344654 - 06/27/05 09:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I also was making funny! :tongue: :grin:




Humor is on a roll in this thread...  :grin:


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4345098 - 06/28/05 12:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

hmm interesting

any link perchance?


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: vampirism]
    #4345113 - 06/28/05 12:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If you want to know about Haitian zombies read the excellant "The Serpent and the Rainbow" by Wade Davis. Datura and Blowfish poison are the primary toxins used.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4345116 - 06/28/05 12:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

no, i mean the people who bury themselves and look like the living dead after a while.


i saw a documentary on the haitian zombies...


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4345278 - 06/28/05 01:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I wonder if you get a salty taste in your mouth after being revived...

The problem is there's no objective scientific way to test the afterlife. If, for example, near-death experiences all happen within a minute or two after death with severe distortion of time, and knowing that, to human perception, the lack of experience is not an experience, they would be revived and only speak of the ND experience they had. They wouldn't remember the utter blackness of nothingness, because all activity would've ceased so there'd be no way to perceive it subjectively.

So no, it wouldn't necessarily solve the issue of an afterlife. People would probably come back spouting the same NDEs we've heard over and over, and the believers would say it's absolute proof, and the disbelievers would use the above argument.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Ravus]
    #4346052 - 06/28/05 06:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting idea....if the brain is turned off there would be no storage medium for the memory...hadn't thought of that. It is a common misconception that the experieners of NDEs are dead, but they still have functional brains. With this procedure the brain is turned off completely. With what you said in mind there would not even be an NDE because the person would go from a state of life to death very quickly, and most likely while sedated.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Ravus]
    #4346105 - 06/28/05 08:00 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I wonder if you get a salty taste in your mouth after being revived...

The problem is there's no objective scientific way to test the afterlife. If, for example, near-death experiences all happen within a minute or two after death with severe distortion of time, and knowing that, to human perception, the lack of experience is not an experience, they would be revived and only speak of the ND experience they had. They wouldn't remember the utter blackness of nothingness, because all activity would've ceased so there'd be no way to perceive it subjectively.

So no, it wouldn't necessarily solve the issue of an afterlife. People would probably come back spouting the same NDEs we've heard over and over, and the believers would say it's absolute proof, and the disbelievers would use the above argument.




yea, that is what I was trying to point out


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4346511 - 06/28/05 01:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

How amazing. :thumbup:


But I agree with Veritas.. the picture of the dog looks like a scene from a horror movie... well, I guess it fits the zombific title.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4346550 - 06/28/05 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

And now, I have something to think about for you, because I tend to something total different:
What if, if 'real eternity' has so much to do with time, that it is foreseeing your revival ?
What if this method will keep you away from 'paradise' ?

(I sound dull in english, but I write stories in german...that's one major plot of a story of mine, sigh)


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4346624 - 06/28/05 02:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, ein Mit Deutsch! Nicht, dass ich deutsch mich selbst bin, aber ich habe in Deutschland mehrfache Zeiten, ausdr?cklich in Ansbach, Landstuhl und Rammstein usw. gelebt. H?bsches sch?nes Land.. Wo leben Sie in Deutschland?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4346717 - 06/28/05 02:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hihi, lustig :wink:
Ja, sagen wir doch bitte 'Du' :smile:
Dein Deutsch klingt ein wenig holprig, aber es ist eindeutig als solches identifizierbar :smile:
Ja, 'an sich' ist Deutschland sch?n, aber wir befinden uns auch (?)in einer intelektuellen Krise.
Heh :smile: munich calling :wink: Hey-Ho Oktoberfest, drink more beer :grin: Then climb over the Alpes and you are in Italy ore Slowenia..quite cooking here with all the EU-stuff..

Hehe, I would love to think of these dog-experiments as something like in the film flat-liners, but we have to wait, what peoples will tell going on this trip :smile:
'Perhaps' there will be some evidence for something or nothing.

edit: Oops, smileyinvasion :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (06/28/05 02:45 PM)


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4346789 - 06/28/05 02:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'll use this thread to make my protest

Two threads locked in one day, both before I had a chance to reply.
When Swami makes his mocking theads nobody says anything, yet my gets locked, and another that is a protest to locking gets locked too.

Some serious violation of freedom of speech, all comming from the land of free


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4346833 - 06/28/05 03:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This IS a fascinating topic.. although, wouldn't there be significant irreversable damage done (physical) to the body, organs, brain, etc. after being "dead" for three hours?


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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4346837 - 06/28/05 03:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

well obviously not


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: Dead Dogs [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4346864 - 06/28/05 03:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No. The procedure prevents it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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