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InvisibleRavus
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Hue has the ashes of life?
    #4341109 - 06/27/05 02:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Most sane humans fear destruction, whether that be destruction of their own property, destruction of the earth, or destruction of their own lives. And it is fairly obvious why.

All creation has been the offspring of destruction. All evolution is created from death, and the more catastrophic the event the greater the evolution. The universe is a work of art, constantly being torn down to see what grows from the chaos. Humanity is included in this; we only evolved from the destruction of the great reptiles that once stood in the place we are now. And we will too be torn down to be replaced with something greater. There is no end, truely; all the apocalypses are simply gateways to something greater.

Nietzsche once spoke of the overman, and said that one day there will be a creation that is to current humanity like current humanity is to the jungle-dwelling primates. Humanity is a bridge drawn over the abyss, evolving and trying to reach a sun that no ladder can ever come close to. We see its light, and we grow taller and wiser, but we will never reach biological singularity; eventually, all this striving will come tumbling down, and we all know the higher the creation the greater the fall.

Our lives are perhaps fractal images of the human species. Each of us tries to strive and create, using any method necessary to get closer to the sun when it is just a delusion. In the end, we will all die. All that we have created will be destroyed. But perhaps, if the pattern holds true, even the destruction of the universe will give rise to something greater, for only by the death of the forests do their nutrients return to the soil.

Nihilism and death and uncertainty, these aspects of life do not put a halt to evolution and creation. They are simply what great minds do; they dissociate from their current situation, look at it from a different perspective, and like a camera recording ourselves we see the true path we are on. But as soon as we move an arm or rise to join society, we snap back into ourselves and forget Nihilism and death and uncertainty in the great action that is life.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4341126 - 06/27/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so life is tragic in your eyes?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4341130 - 06/27/05 02:21 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Life is life. Any subjective terms we give it will die off.

But yes, from a human perspective you could say it is a tragedy of sorts.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4341137 - 06/27/05 02:22 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

*Swami stands with arms folded before the great yawning chasm; the giant dark tide rising awesome in it's magnitude and  ferocity*

BRING IT ON! 

Sometimes you just have to kick some cosmic ass. :cool:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4341139 - 06/27/05 02:23 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

But yes, from a human perspective you could say it is a tragedy of sorts.

Who's up for a group suicide? I'll bring the JiFfyPOp...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Swami]
    #4341151 - 06/27/05 02:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I see you like to cope through humor, eh Swami?

Whether or not life is a tragedy, it doesn't affect our everyday living. We are ignorant to the extent that we can't see our own deaths ahead of us. When a human creates a work of art, when he puts his entire life into a project, his short-sightedness stops him from seeing its inevitable destruction and the destruction of all things it influenced.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4341166 - 06/27/05 02:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

yes, a "human" perspective.
i would describe it as increasing complexity or energy level of a system, that then decreases; like a tide.
to say that this process has a purpose is indeed a "human" perspective.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4341181 - 06/27/05 02:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A purpose requires looking ahead to the future. From observation, it seems the universe simply follows the present like waves on the water.

It's only advanced life that looks ahead to the present because it gives them an evolutionary advantage, but we're just gazing into blackness. We don't know where our current path is leading, we just follow the tide like everything else, living or nonliving.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4341222 - 06/27/05 02:47 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so what's unique about humans is that the ability to gaze into the blackness is part of our wave.

hmm. what's unique about the universe and arguably exceptional is that it's a closed system whereas nothing inside of it is.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4342128 - 06/27/05 08:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Life is life. Any subjective terms we give it will die off.

But yes, from a human perspective you could say it is a tragedy of sorts.




I really like your origional post and tend to agree. But why do you conclude a human tragedy of sorts from this? If one were to love unconditionally then...? :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (06/27/05 08:53 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4342165 - 06/27/05 09:25 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Having such a view has no practical application, but to encourage apathy. Life is what it is and if you do not wish to meet with constant disapointment you must adopt an outlook and world view with practical application. What the ultimate reality is is comletely irrelevant. I have said this to you before. This is an idea that can have dire consequences for one's life should it be actually realized as fact and integrated.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4342185 - 06/27/05 09:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with here you Hue. One must not become nihilistic in world view, and neglect the relative situation. Every action that has positive practical application in the world should definitely be taken up. Thinking in a nihilistic way, one might even come to the point where getting up in the morning is viewed as irrelevant. This is no good. The situation maybe that this life is like an illusion, nevertheless we must participate in a constructive way, taking life as is comes, even if for sometime accepting the right and wrong, dualistic aspects as well as thinking that all of ones actions have consequences. A nihilistic view neglects ones own personal responsibility, as any spiritual practitioner worth their salt will tell you. Things have value, as much as they can e used as tools to further ones spiritual quest. I never accept some abstract ultimate reality in favor of the relative, material levels, because the ultimate is found when engaging and acting in a constructive and helpful manner within the relative material world, just as the seed of yin is in yang, and vice verser.

Hue is correct, there are dire consequences to thinking in a nihilistic way, one of the main ones of which is a constant negative mind-state and outlook on life, which kills any chance of creating merit or generating positive actions that upholds ones virtue, and spiritual practice in the most beneficial of ways for oneself and others. residing to thinking that nothing really exists is tantamount to realizing the dream, but not accepting the law of actions and consequences that govern within it. That's why it is said within Buddhism that our situation is "like" a dream, and not a dream within itself. Nihilism is a self-destructive not self-liberating action and world-view.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4342217 - 06/27/05 10:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Controlled folly?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Icelander]
    #4342303 - 06/27/05 10:57 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

everyone gets bogged down by taking it all too seriously.
life is an amazing series of opportunities.
immersion in karma and drama is one way to suffer,
choosing intimacy and dharma is more light hearted.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4342317 - 06/27/05 11:05 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Nice, I like! :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Icelander]
    #4342518 - 06/27/05 12:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Of course.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Icelander]
    #4342632 - 06/27/05 01:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I really like your origional post and tend to agree. But why do you conclude a human tragedy of sorts from this? If one were to love unconditionally then...? :mushroom2: :heart:




I say life is often a tragedy because all the people one loves will die off, or you will die off and leave them. All the possessions you cherish will be destroyed in the end. Buddhism also releases this, as the Buddha showed when he said, "He who loves 50 people has 50 woes; he who loves no one has no woes."

Which is why I said life is a tragedy from a human perspective, and obviously other animals though I can't say where to draw the line for them. Humans are inherently built to suffer because it helps our survival, and helps keep us away from destruction; and when you're built to suffer, you know that life isn't meant to be one long play of unconditional love. I've never actually seen anyone who held unconditional love for someone else; we say it as an expression, but if anything it seems to be wishful thinking. Violate someone enough times and their love for you will fade, as that is the limit of human nature. Nothing is unconditional.

I believe that both the Buddha and I have started off on the same basic observations, but the Buddha seemed to use the chaos and death around us as a way to shut down the inner voice that causes us pain, while on a Nihilistic level I'd say it makes no difference. The Buddha is still dead, after all. His teachings will be washed away like grains of sand, and while he may have been happy for a few years, his realizations have not given him any advantage in his mortality to anyone else.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4342644 - 06/27/05 01:09 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so what you are really saying is that this is going to work out anyway even though we don't live forever and you mean that in a good way.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4342705 - 06/27/05 01:26 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I say life is often a tragedy because all the people one loves will die off, or you will die off and leave them.




This isn't a tragedy, this is an undeniable fact of reality that exists as reality. Your own emotion-bound addictions and attachments are what paints this as a tragedy.


Quote:


Humans are inherently built to suffer because it helps our survival, and helps keep us away from destruction; and when you're built to suffer, you know that life isn't meant to be one long play of unconditional love. I've never actually seen anyone who held unconditional love for someone else; we say it as an expression, but if anything it seems to be wishful thinking.




We are not built to suffer, please demonstrate the mechanics of our nature that show that suffering is not a learned trait, that it is an essential, hard-wired aspect of our existance. The only thing that suffering benefits is the awareness of suffering, therefore the subsequent application of how not to suffer. Suffering is not necessary and serves no purpose, beyond the overcoming of suffering itself, that any more aware and conscious mind cannot fufill.

Quote:


Violate someone enough times and their love for you will fade, as that is the limit of human nature. Nothing is unconditional.




Verify this. Simply-constructed mental programming perfectly allows for unconditional love to exist.

Quote:


I believe that both the Buddha and I have started off on the same basic observations, but the Buddha seemed to use the chaos and death around us as a way to shut down the inner voice that causes us pain, while on a Nihilistic level I'd say it makes no difference.




It doesn't make a difference. Suffering is one's choice. :lol:

Quote:


The Buddha is still dead, after all. His teachings will be washed away like grains of sand, and while he may have been happy for a few years, his realizations have not given him any advantage in his mortality to anyone else.




It should remain obvious that it is impossible to have any advantage in one's mortality over another aspect of existance. Once again, that is exactly the point. Its free-form expression, with no objective meaning existing. The conceptual Buddha understood this in the first place - it is the whole point. :grin:

As if the Buddha's existance was ever made out to be permanent in the first place, all that talk about the impermanence of phenomenon sort of pointed me away from that... :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Hue has the ashes of life? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4342797 - 06/27/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This isn't a tragedy, this is an undeniable fact of reality that exists as reality. Your own emotion-bound addictions and attachments are what paints this as a tragedy.




Which is why I said "from a human perspective". From the perspective of the universe it just is, but from a human perspective many negative emotions are attached.

Quote:

We are not built to suffer, please demonstrate the mechanics of our nature that show that suffering is not a learned trait, that it is an essential, hard-wired aspect of our existance. The only thing that suffering benefits is the awareness of suffering, therefore the subsequent application of how not to suffer. Suffering is not necessary and serves no purpose, beyond the overcoming of suffering itself, that any more aware and conscious mind cannot fufill.




Suffering is a learned trait? I doubt that. When certain conditions of our's are violated, we suffer. When we don't eat, we suffer as we starve. When a family member dies, we suffer as we mourn. When we lose a limb, we suffer as we adapt.

From an evolutionary perspective, suffering is key. Pain is simply a type of suffering, but like pain, all suffering helps to keep us alive. If a certain action makes us suffer, then we will be much more likely to stay away from it and avoid it. And what poses a threat more to our survival and the survival of the species than destruction? Isn't it odd then that we almost always suffer when we encounter destruction that affects us?

And it's not just humans. If you've ever had a dog, you see it cry if you don't feed it; you see it cry if you emotionally abuse it. If its owner that it loves dies, it will also suffer and mourn. The destruction of either the relationship with the dog or the destruction of the dog's pack will make it suffer, as from an evolutionary perspective, the dog will be much more likely to fight something that will make it suffer.

Quote:

Verify this. Simply-constructed mental programming perfectly allows for unconditional love to exist.




So you believe finite, conditional creatures like humans can experience infinite, unconditional love? For truely, unconditional love must be infinite; it means that if we do anything to them over any amount of time, they'll still have that love. And this seems ridiculous to me. Even from a simple evolutionary perspective, it would go against all rationality, all logic, all survival for that individual. There's a reason why nothing is absolute, especially in our survival.

Quote:

It doesn't make a difference. Suffering is one's choice.




I bet you wouldn't say that if you were being burned alive. Emotionally, we can control suffering to an extent, but it's still there. If your entire family was killed, you would suffer, but a strong-minded individual could indeed control it. But if you were tortured using the best of modern technology, suffering would be beyond your choice-making abilities.

Quote:

It should remain obvious that it is impossible to have any advantage in one's mortality over another aspect of existance. Once again, that is exactly the point. Its free-form expression, with no objective meaning existing. The conceptual Buddha understood this in the first place - it is the whole point.




So what is the point of enlightenment? Obviously it doesn't create immortality, but the teachings of the Buddha are impermanent, as is the Buddha himself. Why become enlightened as opposed to just remaining as you are? What's the difference?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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