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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4349970 -

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuya !
THAT is nice !

jope you stay sterile!
peace ohm :mushroom2:


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4349974 -

What type of spawn is that? Sorry if I missed it earlier...


--------------------
Free Spore Ring Canada

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Onetwothree]
    #4349979 -

Onetwothree said:
What type of spawn is that?  Sorry if I missed it earlier...


no spawn, direct substrate.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: ohmatic]
    #4350001 -

Oh snap, my bad


--------------------
Free Spore Ring Canada

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4350002 -

I am not doing spawn. Spawn is great if you don't have enough room in your pressure cooker for the full substrate you intend to use, but I have enough room for about 15 pounds of substrate (dry weight) in a 22-quart if I pack it with spawn bags. Assuming 100% BE, which is not outrageous for cubensis, that's enough to produce 1.5 pounds dry, more mushrooms than anyone I know could use. If you can avoid spawning, it will reduce the time by about 7 to 14 days, and I am shooting for speed in this run.

I broke one of the bags (used to have four) but I still have about 10 pounds dry substrate weight in the three remaining. The bags are filled with a mix of WBS and manure (about 1:1). I enriched the mix with a few percent stevia tea leaf (sugar source), little bit of black mustard (rich in oils), and bee pollen (steroidal cubensis growth accelerator and miscellaneous vitamin/mineral source). I used a lot of vermiculite to balance the moisture out too. All in all it's a pretty rich mix.

Edited by Blue Helix (06/29/05 09:48 AM)

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4350118 -

Update

I turned around a couple bags. I guess the mixing wasn't quite as good as I'd like. The far side of the bags (side away from the injection site) are far less inoculated. I figure that the bags will require five more days now rather than three.

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4358866 -

4 days since LC inoculation and the growth looks good (this is the less-colonized side):



I figure three more days until they're done.

Edited by Blue Helix (07/01/05 09:17 AM)

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4358979 -

ah... LC is so nice.


--------------------
weretheshit.com is the shit!

:-D

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4369668 -

great man!
that really got me to take a look at liquid culture again myself.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


--------------------
:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4370617 -

Blue Helix said:
4 days since LC inoculation and the growth looks good (this is the less-colonized side):



I figure three more days until they're done.


So, how is the bag hanging?


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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4371972 -

Well, it was broken up at 90% colonized and recolonized in 48 hours hard again, so I laid it in a tray yesterday morning after 7 days colonization. So far everything looks great! This time I used your micropore tape recommendation on the plastic wrap. Also, I am keeping they tray cool (i.e. 86F core) with a fan that is connected to a heat controller switch with the sensing probe monitoring the core temperature. The tray is elevated on half pint jars so air can reach it from all sides.

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4372226 -

were the bags sealed before or after sterilising and with what method?


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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4372233 -

So, let me get this into prospective.

You went from spores, to LC, colonized LC direct injection to sterilized bulk substrate in a filter/patch bag, colonized bulk substrate bag was opened, then emptied into a tray & that is knitting togather now.

The bulk substrate was QUOTE "mix of WBS and manure (about 1:1). I enriched the mix with a few percent stevia tea leaf (sugar source), little bit of black mustard (rich in oils), and bee pollen (steroidal cubensis growth accelerator and miscellaneous vitamin/mineral source). I used a lot of vermiculite to balance the moisture out too."END QUOTE.

It would appear the KEY here is a high degree of sterility & VERY carefull monitoring of the core substrate temperature.

Because, with that rich substrate mix, if the core temperature of the substrate went higher than optimal - you normally would get a huge bacterial bloom, heat spike & fermentation :mad2:.

Since the substrate was sterilized, you must have a very low bacteria count. Otherwise, I think the substrate (if given the wrong incubation conditions) would have heated up & cooked itself. :eek:

Mesophilic microbes (A group of bacteria that grow and thrive in a moderate temperature range between 68 F (20 C) and 113 F (45 C). most often become active feeding on richer nutrients within a substrate.

The substrate must be well conditioned (airy). Otherwise anaerobic conditions might set in, which could result in metabolic activity increases and excess heat is produced.

Good work. I'm impressed.


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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: agar]
    #4372275 -

agar said:
It would appear the KEY here is a high degree of sterility & VERY carefull monitoring of the core substrate temperature.

Good work. I'm impressed.


:thumbup:

he's got balls

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: debianlinux]
    #4372488 -

debianlinux said:
agar said:
It would appear the KEY here is a high degree of sterility & VERY carefull monitoring of the core substrate temperature.

Good work. I'm impressed.


:thumbup:

he's got balls


LOL..........true.

Sort of along this line, way back when, agar had access to a high pressure pelleting machine.


Diatomite, or diatomaceous earth, is a sedimentary rock consisting of the exoskeletons of  algae-like plants (Diatoms) ranging in size typically from 10 to 200 microns. The skeletal structure can contain up to 80% to 90% voids

Soaked loose DE in a sterile high nutrient solution, them made very hard BB sized pellets out of it.

Pressure from machine squeezed out excess moisture.

Filled a filter/patch bag with pellets, hydrated it with sterile water (to point pellets absorbed all the moisture & no excess moisture pooled in bag).

Injected the bag with LC, allowed it to colonize & used pellets as spawn into a bulk compost substrate.
Worked great.

Advantage, pellets held optimal long term - slow release - nutrients, plus as nutrients were deleted, pellets retained high water absorption capacity & helped maintain high moisture content - in substrate.


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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4373530 -

The bags were sterilized and kept sterile, so there is no chance of bacterial problems while in the bag. And we aren't talking a spawning into the bags. Spawning, fermentation, or bacterial blooms are what generate the real heat. I just inoculated the bag with liquid culture which generates heat but is easily controlled by just keeping the bags well spaced out in the open.

As for the laid trays, I am being super caution with the fan on the trays because I know that they can get pretty hot because the grain is now exposed to a relatively high amount of oxygen and will start to grow even faster. Also, the casing soil was sterilized this time which means it is open for bacterial contamination the first few days. In my experience that bacterial growth in the casing is normal and one can smell it faintly if the soil was sterilized rather than pasteurized. The bacterial growth shouldn't get out of hand unless the tray gets hot and the grain starts to die OR if the grain wasn't colonized well in the first place. If it starts to smell strongly, the tray is probably toast, and once it does smell strongly, it's too late to save it in my experience. You might get a weak flush or something from it, but if it really reeks, it'll never colonize the casing.

debianlinux, the bags were sealed after sterilization using the same method I always use. I load the bags tight against the walls of the pressure cooker and separate them from each other with lid bands. I neatly fold the extra plastic from the top over so it is tight against the lid band and the bag. I then pressure cook for 3 to 4 hours because the pressure cooker is packed and I think it takes that long.

Once the time is up, let the cooker cool for a few hours during which time I clean bathroom, Oust spray it, get my facial mask and swim cap ready, get my alcohol-sterilized rubber gloves on, all doors/windows shut, etc. Once it's had a chance to cool a bit, I open the cooker and gently move the flap into the heat impulse sealer. I don't allow ANY air in the bag. If I must move the bag to get it in place for the sealer, which I typically don't, I pick the bag up from the bottom to prevent any air getting inside the bag.

Once it's well sealed, I pinch them up on clothes hangers with strong wood clamps with rubber feet for about 3 hours. During this time, air from outside draws in from the weight of the bag, going through the filter patch. Also the bags cool all the way down during the hang.

Then the bags are ready to be injected at the tape-reinforced area that I prepared and immediately heat glue sealed.

Edited by Blue Helix (07/05/05 08:14 PM)

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4373970 -

I took a look at the casing today, only 24 hours after laying it. While it smells faintly of bacterial growth, I am not worried about that since it's normal for a faint smell to develop in the first few days if one sterilizes the casing. I've had it happen many times before with spectacular flushes to follow.

The interesting thing I noted is that I can already see the mycelium tearing up the casing like there is no tomorrow in one area because a grain clump was accidentally pushed close to the surface (about 1/4 inch down) during the casing lay. From that single clump of grain/manure, I can tell the mycelium likes this casing. When the mycelium doesn't avoid the casing but runs into it willingly like that sucking up water, things always work out. Speaking of water, the casing looks considerably drier already too. I'll definitely have to mist it if continues to dry.

Of course it's too early to tell for sure, but I give it already a high probability of working just from observing the mycelium shooting off the grain into the surrounding casing. As long as I can keep it cool, I think it's going to work. I'll be sure to post pictures along the way.

Just to summaries the two big changes this time:

1) Liquid culture used with a full ml of liquid culture solution rather than 100uL drop. This resulted in a spawn run in a record time of 5 days with a 2 day break and recoup period.

2) Casing was rinsed extensively, pH balanced to 7.4 using a dash of hydrated lime, oyster shell flour, and aragonite crushed coral. What's new? I used a bit of hydrated lime and rinsed the casing extensively using a cement mixing bag as a sieve, the casing was sterilized rather than pasteurized, and oyster shell chips were not used as I observed that they were the origin of the petroleum smell I had noted before (still don't know what that is all about).

3) The substrate incorporated manure, bee pollen, and stevia leaf. These were not put in the substrate before.

4) I have paid much closer attention to the substrate temperatures both in the spawn bags and in the tray. For example the spawn bags were spaced out and left out in the open where they could keep cool. The trays are being conditioned with a heat controller switch such that the bottom tray surface never exceeds 83F (which probably brings the core to around 86F).

5) The tray's are receiving quite a bit more air as I opted to replace the pinholes with a 1/4" split across the plastic wrap covered with medical micropore wrap tape.


So, I am afraid this is not good science as I changed a number of things, but I don't want to wait for good science here. I just want results, and I think they are coming.

Edited by Blue Helix (07/05/05 10:26 PM)

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4387488 -

Today is day five since the casing. The mycelium had ripped through the casing like it was practically a substrate and had turned from linear to heavily rhizomorphic just under the surface! I put the trays in the fruiter and applied a casing redistribution technique that results in a perfectly even pin set as I usually do. Another name for this technique is a light scratch where I scratch all the casing down the the top of the heavy mycelium penetration and mix it up. The re-colonization usually takes no more than 48 hours and is always impressive being much more even than the first growth. This allows the massive pin sets but only works if the mycelium is vigorous, which this one definitely is. I'll post a picture to demonstrate once the pin set in a week.

The important point here is that I seem to have the solution to my problems. I attacked it from many angles, so I haven't a clue which or if all were involved. My hunch is that the microdrop thing was the problem more than anything else.

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4391077 -

If you ever get the time and inclination, it might be nice to get pics right before you scratch, right after, 24 hours and 48 or something like that..give people (me :smile:) and idea of exactly what you do. I've been doing something similar recently..more just using my fingers to shuffle it all around, instead of patching (adding any)..disturbs stuff a bit and gets everything nice and even in 24 hours or so. Still sometimes need to add a bit of casing if growth is aggressive but comes from running a warm fruiter.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Re: Constant-stir LC showing expotential growth in first 3.5 days. (pics) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4391262 -

In my experience with peat-moss-based casings, they need to be fruited out once the mycelium has about 30% poke-through coverage and can be seen in the majority of the deep valleys. If you wait any longer, you enter the overlay danger area.

No matter how perfectly you lay your casing or how perfectly flat your substrate base was, there will be fans of mycelium that reach through the casing soil first. The tips of those fans are the early break points. Between the fans you have less colonized places. To even out this growth, a scratching or re-arrangement of the mycelium fan tips is required. I have always done this when the mycelium looks healthy.

The process I am talking about could be done with a finger as you suggest, Scatmanrav, but I believe I achieve a lot more precision with a torch-sterilized fork. The goal is to mix up the uncolonized and early break points and perfectly spread that mix over the surface. The surface may or may not be perfectly even, but you want the same amount of casing mix over all well colonized casing surface. If you over incubated your casing and now don't have enough, now is the time to add more. Just mix it in with the rest.

The goal is NOT of disrupt the mycelium down to the substrate. The goal is to break up the mycelium at the early break points about 1/4" down and mix it in with uncolonized casing that you scratched off. Then you spread the mix around and evenly over the well colonized casing. This is a gentle process, yet when it is through your casing won't LOOK like its colonized anymore. Don't worry; it's an optical illusion.

In 24 hours the rhizomorphs will re-emerge as tiny puffs of cotton-like mycelium. Each rhizomorph forms this puff on the top. This is normal and not a problem since the mycelium under the soil will be much more rhizomorphic and capable of pinning. This mycelium will have a tendency to collapse into a more hard form in the coming days before forming pins. If the surface looks like lots of tiny spikes, then the rhizomorphs are running ON the surface rather than UNDER the surface which means you are watering it too much. If you water too much, you will be in danger of developing either overlay or mold (both are common in 100% RH chambers with ultrasonic misters on too much).

Here is what my current casing looks like on my 12-quart tray 24 hours after this scratch/casing redistribution:



This is a perfect casing. As long as I don't over water it and cause it to overlay, the pin set will be awesome. I doubt there will be much of a surface left after the first flush as it'll be destroyed in the cropping, but it's best that way because you get your yield out in the first two flushes where you really want it. I'll post pictures later.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Advanced Mycology
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