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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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So what scientific evidence did psychiatrists have to back them on their KNOWLEDGE that homosexuality was a mental disease?
At the time the DSM classified homosexuality as a disorder, homosexuals were oppressed and fearful closet-cases due to society's views. Homosexuality was illegal and the laws were enforced. Homosexuals were routinely railroaded by their families into straight marriages where they spent miserable, unfulfilled lives. The majority were maladapted as a result of living in such an environment and this WAS supported by the evidence. Today things are different for homosexuals, not because there's anything different with homosexuals, but because there is something different with the environment they find themselves in. So, naturally, the DSM was updated. This is the key feature of psychiatry/psychology that you are missing as compared to Scientology. Psychiatry/psychology are (inexact) sciences and as such are subject to review and update in the face of new evidence. Scientologists, on the other hand, made up dogma and have stuck to it for over half a century without update. Its dogma is not subject to review and update because it's made up, it's invented. New discoveries are irrelevant to made up junk which was wrong when it was made up and is still wrong today. Have you read Dianetics? I'm no expert on Scientology, but for the record, I have read Dianetics; I found it to be entertaining fiction. And, back in the late 70s I did an 'audit' at the church's facility in Coral Gables, FL (near Miami); I found it to be entertaining bullshit. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government. Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 09:30 AM)
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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I did a "stress test", at the location in Toronto once, I'm not entirely sure if that's a simplified audit or what, but I thought it was pretty goofy.
Diploid, for the record, any indication of sources of information in Dianetics? From your post, I get the impression that there is little or no evidence that it was anything but fabricated. Really, I could waste a lot of time memorizing all the Scientology nonsense, but none of that will demonstrate to me that it has any kind of credible source for its information. No matter how many meaningless details I read about, they're still all just made up. So why then, amidst all the accusations of harassment, corruption, and the fact that the entire thing is quite clearly fabricated, would anyone take Scientology seriously? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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psilocyberin, are you aware of Operation Snow White?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White Not only did high ranking members of the Church of Scientology conspire to infiltrate government offices and steal documents, the FBI raids following their arrest turned up documents outlining plans for illegal activities, including conspiracies to frame people of various crimes. Oh, and a few quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy : Quote: -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us Edited by Phluck (07/04/05 02:42 PM)
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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One more thing, the book isn't simply called "Dianetics", it is called "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health".
No, of course they're not trying to create the impression that it's based on actual science. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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SneezingPenis ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Ah, yes, now i understand. So Psychiatry can make unsubstantiated claims and speak scientifically about theories which are based solely on public opinion, but scientologists have to account for ever peice of belief they have with scientific datum... yeah, i get it now.... its a double standard. Quote: Look at all the scientists that went against public opinion and see that those were some of the greatest minds of our time which debunked many of the public opinion perpetuated myths. Just because peer review exists, doesnt make it infallible, especially if it is reviewed by like minded scientists who seem to be subverted by the same bias and swayed by the same public opinion. Quote: So, who is cashing in? can you find these people who are making all the big bucks from this? and why did L. Ron. Hubbard sink 8 million dolars of his own money into it if he was so greedy? yes, they do think they are above psychiatry, because they realize that they have treated mental disorders in people without the use of drugs. Also, what is wrong with turnabout being fair play? You act as if the church is acting completely unprovoked, all it is doing is giving back a taste of what it has received. I dont see how you can justigy the actions of these psych related groups which have done the exact same things in which you accuse scientology of being so malicious for. Could you please for once turn your focus and similar logic/accusations on the groups against scientology and go about this in an unbiased way? Quote: How can you sit here and make an accusation like that, about a book that you have never read? doesnt sound very credible. How can you say "Dianetics is bullshit" when you havent even read the book? come on now, this is just getting ridiculous. Quote: again with your experiments.... why does any religious organization need to do experiments, especially on beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or another? Scientology doesnt claim anything that any other religion has claimed. Every religion claims it can solve all your problems, why arent you asking these other religions to scientifically prove why they believe that?
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SneezingPenis ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 10 months |
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Quote: and all that peer-review still allowed for psychiatry to label homosexuality as a disease and a disorder of the mind. Is this the way they work on all their cases? where the ends justify the means, in essence, the fact that we have labelled homosexuality as a malady, and forced them into being repressed and social pariahs, which in turn makes them depressed or suicidal, makes our previous diagnosis correct? Quote: actually, scientologists have made many updates to their dogma, and stated that they were wrong about certain procedures, and changed them accordingly. Quote: FINALLY!, we have a perfect example of what I have absolutly no problem with. You read it, and foudn it to be bullshit. great! that is all that really needed to be said in this thread. To go on further, and bash the church , just because you think your opinion should be acceptable for everyone else, is just plain ridiculous. You found it to be bullshit.... good, does that mean that everyone should find it to be bullshit? or that it is impossible for anyone to find personal truth which can help them improve their life? nope! I have found plenty of spirituality in fictional work, Carlos Casteneda being a great example. Quote: apply above statement here as well.
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SneezingPenis ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Yes, i am aware of that, and so what? how does this discredit the millions of people who have improved their lives? I would also like to give you a nice little disclaimer i found on wikipedia. if you want the source... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer which states.....: Quote: wow.... there is that peer review stuff you guys are so infatuated with.... so, yeah, keep on using wikipedia as a source if you want.... ill just respond with its own disclaimer.
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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Ah, yes, now i understand. So Psychiatry can make unsubstantiated claims and speak scientifically about theories which are based solely on public opinion, but scientologists have to account for ever peice of belief they have with scientific datum... yeah, i get it now.... its a double standard. and Look at all the scientists that went against public opinion and see that those were some of the greatest minds of our time which debunked many of the public opinion perpetuated myths. Just because peer review exists, doesnt make it infallible, especially if it is reviewed by like minded scientists who seem to be subverted by the same bias and swayed by the same public opinion. What are you talking about? A scientific study cannot determine whether or not something is a disease. Know why? Calling something a disease is like saying "it's a bad thing." When psychiatrists defined homosexuality as a disease, they were simply putting it on a list of problems to address, not making any kind of scientific claim. What the hell were they supposed to do? Is there some kind of scientific study for which the results can be "being gay is acceptable and not shameful"? Of course not. Comparing this to making up information about how the brain works makes no sense at all. Compare these two statements. "I think people who practice homosexuality are doing something wrong." "The brain works stores memories at 24 frames per second." One is a statment of value, which is based entirely on person opinion, and cannot be measured in any possible way. The other one is a definite statement about the physical nature of something. I dont see how you can justigy the actions of these psych related groups which have done the exact same things in which you accuse scientology of being so malicious for. Are you basing that statement entirely on what the Church of Scientology says, or do you have any real evidence? A definite example, perhaps? Why do you think that the Church of Scientology is singled out? Just random chance? What about Mormons, the fastest growing religion on the planet. They receive a certain amount of mockery, why aren't people conspiring against them all the time? Could it perhaps be because one of the tenets of fair play is that it's okay to make things up about your opponents if it will help you? How can you sit here and make an accusation like that, about a book that you have never read? doesnt sound very credible. How can you say "Dianetics is bullshit" when you havent even read the book? come on now, this is just getting ridiculous. Well, frankly, because in your next statement, you claim that the book doesn't even need to have the things I'm looking for; evidence. So why the fuck would I want to read a book that explains things to me without providing any evidence or justification? That would be an excercise in futility. Every religion claims it can solve all your problems, why arent you asking these other religions to scientifically prove why they believe that? I am. Obviously you've never read anything I've posted here outside of this thread. Why don't I question other religions within this thread? Because this thread is about Scientology. Also, of course, unlike other religions, scientology actually refers to dianetics as a science (right in the title of the book, no less), and unlike other religions, the church promotes the idea of harassing and publicly demonizing their opponents. You ever think that maybe if Scientology were really as nice, sincere, and honest as other religions, they wouldn't get the flak they get? -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Diploid, for the record, any indication of sources of information in Dianetics? From your post, I get the impression that there is little or no evidence that it was anything but fabricated.
No references or sources of any kind (surprised?). It does include a brief bio of Hubbard where they touch on his illustrious university career studying mathematics and physics; they omit the fact that he was expelled from university for bad grades (surprised?). A lie of omission is still a lie. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government. Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 04:15 PM)
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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wow.... there is that peer review stuff you guys are so infatuated with.... so, yeah, keep on using wikipedia as a source if you want.... ill just respond with its own disclaimer. Which is actually fairly stupid, since the editors are extremely good about editing out vandalism, and there is consistant debate and requests for validation about information available on their discussion pages. If there's anything on wikipedia that you don't think is true, feel free to google it and read one of the many other websites which will tell you exactly the same facts. http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irs-snow.html http://www.answers.com/topic/operation-snow-white http://www.skeptictank.org/nl/nutl318.htm http://www.xenutv.com/print/canada/globe-snowwhite-010180.htm how does this discredit the millions of people who have improved their lives? If you write a compelling book telling people that staring at their shoes for an hour a day could change their lives for the better, you could have an army of people claiming it's the gospel truth. Being able to do that doesn't excuse all kinds of slimey behavior. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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No references our sources of any kind (surprised?). It does include a brief bio of Hubbard where they touch on his illustrious university career studying mathematics and physics; the omit the fact that he was expelled from university for bad grades (surprised?). A lie of omission is still a lie. Shocking! ...and I'd had him pegged as such an honest individual. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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To go on further, and bash the church , just because you think your opinion should be acceptable for everyone else, is just plain ridiculous.
No psilocyberin, get it straight: I bash the Church of Scientology for claiming their dogma is science when it's not, for sanctioning crimes including breaking into government offices and stealing government documents, for lying about what the E-Meter is and measures, for defying court orders to stop practicing medicine by changing people's medications without their doctor's consent, for conspiring to frame their critics and have them thrown in jail, for trying to silence the alt.religion.scientology Internet newsgroup, for claiming 75% success rate in drug rehabilitation when their success rate is closer to 6%, for creating alternate identities without disclosure to recruit members... And finally, I bash the of Church of Scientology for killing Lisa McPherson. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government. Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 04:18 PM)
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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http://breakingnews.iol.ie/enter
Brooke Shields' war of words with Tom Cruise has taken another twist after the Suddenly Susan actress slammed Cruise's recent rant against psychotherapy and anti-depressant medication on US TV show Today. Cruise, who is a devotee of L Ron Hubbard's Scientology religion, lashed out Shields in an interview last month for condoning the use of drugs she used to help overcome post-partum depression. But Shields is determined to have the final word - and she is even thankful to Cruise for increasing public knowledge about the debilitating mental illness. Shields tells the New York Times: "I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Mr Cruise has never suffered from postpartum depression. "To suggest that I was wrong to take drugs to deal with my depression, and that instead I should have taken vitamins and exercised shows an utter lack of understanding about postpartum depression and childbirth in general. "If any good can come of Mr Cruise's ridiculous rant, let's hope that it gives much-needed attention to a serious disease." -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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lkfity315 First timetrippe Registered: 04/12/05 Posts: 96 Loc: south carolina Last seen: 15 years, 10 months |
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Quote: amen to that dude hes a fuckin faggot i think hes soo gay he just wonts the media attention fcukin celebreties -------------------- "My advice to people today is as follows: If you take the game of life seriously, if you take your nervous system seriously, if you take your sense organs seriously, if you take the energy process seriously, you must turn on, tune in, and drop out. " Timothy Leary
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Seuss Error: divide byzero Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 month, 19 days |
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Quote: I couldn't have said it better myself. Having seen the Cult of $cientology destroy a family first hand, I have no respect at all for anybody that supports their drivel. They are very good at convincing the layman that they understand science (it is in the name) the same way that a magician is very good at convincing the layman that the impossible is happening. People understand that the magician is just an act, but the cult claims to be the real deal. They are preying on ignorance at the expense of peoples lives... they are the tyranny of evil men. -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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I hope psilocyberin isn't reporting us to the local Dianetics center... we'll have legions of Scientologist lawyers on our asses in no time.
He DID already say that he agreed with what they did to alt.religion.scientology... -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Icelander The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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This debate has been amazingly long. I am not a fan of any reliqion. I think mostly they are harmfull and part of the cultural matrix of control over populations.
However, even in the worst religions, there are some who find usfullness in them to the point of spiritual growth. Ususlly it is a stepping stone and nothing more. The evil that religions do should be brought to light. That is good for everyone in my opinion. Individuals who gain from the religion might do well to let it take its lumps and stand or fall on it's own. They have gotten what they need. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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FurrySheep Psychonaut Registered: 11/04/03 Posts: 326 Loc: nURHEAD |
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He thinks his opinion matters just because he is wealthy.
--------------------
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Phluck Carpal Tunnel Registered: 04/10/99 Posts: 11,394 Loc: Canada Last seen: 5 months, 4 days |
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However, even in the worst religions, there are some who find usfullness in them to the point of spiritual growth. Ususlly it is a stepping stone and nothing more. I think that's a valid point, but I'm not sure that the religion itself is responsible. Anyone who decides to seriously put in the effort to change their lives has the capacity to succeed. With most religions (or self help cults) claiming to be able to help people change their lives, it's only natural that lots of people with an interest in doing so will attach themselves to a religion. A church can provide a community of people who are willing to help you change yourself. Someone heavily involved in an addiction will likely need to find a new community to be able to avoid their addiction, and a church can provide that. It's difficult to say whether or not the actual tenets of religions have any bearing on ones success in achieving their goals, but I wouldn't be too suprised to learn that simply having friends who are willing to support your goals gives someone the same advantage as Christianity or Scientology. -------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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SneezingPenis ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111! Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 15,427 Last seen: 6 years, 10 months |
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to the thread. I didnt have a chance to sit down and post until now.
Quote: Ok, just wanted to let it be understood that while you have no problem with psychiatry going about making outrageous and unfounded claims, an organization which has a duty to society to be unbiased and constantly scientific, you have a huge problem with a religious organization making outrageous and unfounded claims, which has no duty to society to be unbiased and scientific. Quote: from Websters dictionary..... Disease: a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning : SICKNESS, MALADY Nope, nothing that needs scientific backing there..... Quote: I hope my tax dollars dont go to funding psychiatric institutions so that they can tell me what is socially acceptable and what isnt. Psychiatrists were not just saying that homosexuality was wrong or bad, they were saying that it was an actual sickness, based on their scientific knowledge, which was wrong. If psychiatry wants to be the organization which deems what is wrong or right then they need to be called "the supreme court". Quote: Why didnt you use the word disease. I could never find the word disease to be synonymous with the word wrong....anywhere. If you would replace the word wrong with disease, then i would find no difference between the two statements. Where did you start getting the idea that disease was the same as saying something is wrong? "Johnny, look both ways before crossing the street, because if you dont, yuo have a disease"....?????????? Quote: No, one is some delusion you have with replacing words to fit your argument, the other cannot be measured scientifically and thusly is an opinion of a religious group. If it can be proven, then i urge the scientific community to prove scientology wrong. Quote: Edited by psilocyberin (07/06/05 05:04 PM)
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