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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4368994 - 07/04/05 09:14 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So what scientific evidence did psychiatrists have to back them on their KNOWLEDGE that homosexuality was a mental disease?

At the time the DSM classified homosexuality as a disorder, homosexuals were oppressed and fearful closet-cases due to society's views. Homosexuality was illegal and the laws were enforced. Homosexuals were routinely railroaded by their families into straight marriages where they spent miserable, unfulfilled lives. The majority were maladapted as a result of living in such an environment and this WAS supported by the evidence.

Today things are different for homosexuals, not because there's anything different with homosexuals, but because there is something different with the environment they find themselves in. So, naturally, the DSM was updated.

This is the key feature of psychiatry/psychology that you are missing as compared to Scientology. Psychiatry/psychology are (inexact) sciences and as such are subject to review and update in the face of new evidence.

Scientologists, on the other hand, made up dogma and have stuck to it for over half a century without update. Its dogma is not subject to review and update because it's made up, it's invented. New discoveries are irrelevant to made up junk which was wrong when it was made up and is still wrong today.

Have you read Dianetics?

I'm no expert on Scientology, but for the record, I have read Dianetics; I found it to be entertaining fiction.

And, back in the late 70s I did an 'audit' at the church's facility in Coral Gables, FL (near Miami); I found it to be entertaining bullshit.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 09:30 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Diploid]
    #4369063 - 07/04/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I did a "stress test", at the location in Toronto once, I'm not entirely sure if that's a simplified audit or what, but I thought it was pretty goofy.

Diploid, for the record, any indication of sources of information in Dianetics? From your post, I get the impression that there is little or no evidence that it was anything but fabricated.

Really, I could waste a lot of time memorizing all the Scientology nonsense, but none of that will demonstrate to me that it has any kind of credible source for its information.

No matter how many meaningless details I read about, they're still all just made up. So why then, amidst all the accusations of harassment, corruption, and the fact that the entire thing is quite clearly fabricated, would anyone take Scientology seriously?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4369646 - 07/04/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

psilocyberin, are you aware of Operation Snow White?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

Not only did high ranking members of the Church of Scientology conspire to infiltrate government offices and steal documents, the FBI raids following their arrest turned up documents outlining plans for illegal activities, including conspiracies to frame people of various crimes.

Oh, and a few quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy :

Quote:


The following is a selection of quotations from L. Ron Hubbard that are frequently cited by critics of Scientology as proof of the organization's alleged hypocrisy and true intent. While not denying Hubbard as the true author of these quotes, the Church of Scientology vehemently insists these quotes are being taken out of context, and that critics are misstating their actual intent. Critics, however, note that Scientology has been reluctant to explain these quotes in a manner so that they are not taken out of context.


"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 4 January 1966


"Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 25 February 1966


"Having viewed slum clearance projects in most major cities of the world may I state that you have conceived and created in the Johannesburg townships what is probably the most impressive and adequate resettlement activity in existence." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Letter to South African Apartheid Government, 1960


"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them." -- L. Ron Hubbard, Technique 88


"They smell of all the baths they didn't take. The trouble with China is, there are too many chinks here." -- L. Ron Hubbard (Diary entry circa 1928)


"If anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate [sic] or stop Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday-school teacher. There is probably no limit on what I would do to safeguard Man's only road to freedom against persons who ... seek to stop Scientology or hurt Scientologists." -- L. Ron Hubbard, 15 August 1967


"People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score. People attack auditors, or staff, or organisations, or me. I never forget until the slate is clear." -- L. Ron Hubbard, The Manual of Justice


"So we listen. We add up associations of people with people. When a push against Scientology starts somewhere, we go over the people involved and weed them out. Push vanishes." -- L. Ron Hubbard, The Manual of Justice


"At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - Purcell, Ridgway, Ceppos." -- L. Ron Hubbard


(Dr. Joe Winter was a board member of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation, but he broke with Hubbard over the use of "past lives" to explain engrams. Don Purcell, Derricke Ridgway and Art Ceppos were former supporters of Hubbard who also broke with him. One explanation offered for the context of this quotation is that Hubbard meant that the expansion of Scientology would save lives; Scientologists believe they are responsible for disasters because they did not disseminate their technology well enough.)


"Bluntly, we are out to replace medicine in the next three years." -- Hubbard College Reports, 13 March 1952





--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (07/04/05 02:42 PM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4369704 - 07/04/05 03:02 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

One more thing, the book isn't simply called "Dianetics", it is called "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health".

No, of course they're not trying to create the impression that it's based on actual science.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4369710 - 07/04/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Good and bad have no foothold here. Im not debating whether or not homosexuality is good or bad. Im debating the fact that psychiatrist, under the guise of being medical professionals, claimed that it was a disease, and arose from psychological and physiological problems.

The claim that it was a disease had NOTHING to do with theories on its origins, and EVERYTHING to do with the perception that homosexuality is BAD.

Understand?



Ah, yes, now i understand. So Psychiatry can make unsubstantiated claims and speak scientifically about theories which are based solely on public opinion, but scientologists have to account for ever peice of belief they have with scientific datum... yeah, i get it now.... its a double standard.

Quote:

Being scientific means being without prejudice, without bias, and without succumbing to the pressures and influences of society.

Uh, no, actually, it doesn't, that would be impossible. People will always have some kind of bias, which is why things like peer review exist. So that scientists have to open their publications to the criticism of other scientists, fully exposing their methods.



Look at all the scientists that went against public opinion and see that those were some of the greatest minds of our time which debunked many of the public opinion perpetuated myths. Just because peer review exists, doesnt make it infallible, especially if it is reviewed by like minded scientists who seem to be subverted by the same bias and swayed by the same public opinion.

Quote:

Ah... so now your entire argument against scientology is that it is the goofy kid in the class that everyone makes fun of. Ok..... Lets see how far our society advances if we keep letting the opinions of the majority dictate with an iron fist what is right and wrong, or what we can and cant do.... It is doing great so far.... i mean, it got GWB elected and re-elected.

Uh, no, the entire basis for my argument against Scientology is that they are willing to engage in the harassment and censorship of their critics. They claim to somehow be above psychiatry, yet their entire collection of "knowledge" is fabricated. Of course, by calling themselves a church, they're allowed to say whatever the hell they want (not to mention the financial bonuses), even though their bullshit has more in common with fringe psychiatry pseudoscience than it does ANY religion.

When you read stuff from the bible, it's like "oh, they didn't really have any understanding of the universe, I can see how a long line of legends wove together to create these ideas", but scientology is different, it was fabricated all at once, by one guy trying to cash in.




So, who is cashing in? can you find these people who are making all the big bucks from this? and why did L. Ron. Hubbard sink 8 million dolars of his own money into it if he was so greedy? yes, they do think they are above psychiatry, because they realize that they have treated mental disorders in people without the use of drugs.
Also, what is wrong with turnabout being fair play? You act as if the church is acting completely unprovoked, all it is doing is giving back a taste of what it has received. I dont see how you can justigy the actions of these psych related groups which have done the exact same things in which you accuse scientology of being so malicious for. Could you please for once turn your focus and similar logic/accusations on the groups against scientology and go about this in an unbiased way?

Quote:

Have you read Dianetics? or is this another one of your hand-me-down opinions?

Nothing I've read about scientology makes even the slightest reference about the origins of their "knowledge".

I don't think I have to read an entire book to understand that, and I'm not interested in giving my money to an organization I find distasteful when I'm probably not even going to find what I'm looking for. If you can tell me about something in the book that will answer my questions, then I'll read it, but for all I can tell, it's all made up.



How can you sit here and make an accusation like that, about a book that you have never read? doesnt sound very credible. How can you say "Dianetics is bullshit" when you havent even read the book? come on now, this is just getting ridiculous.

Quote:

How did Hubbard find this information?
Did he do experiments?
Make discoveries about the nature of the brain?
Have the information telepathically transmitted to him by aliens?



again with your experiments.... why does any religious organization need to do experiments, especially on beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or another? Scientology doesnt claim anything that any other religion has claimed. Every religion claims it can solve all your problems, why arent you asking these other religions to scientifically prove why they believe that?

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Diploid]
    #4369729 - 07/04/05 03:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So what scientific evidence did psychiatrists have to back them on their KNOWLEDGE that homosexuality was a mental disease?

At the time the DSM classified homosexuality as a disorder, homosexuals were oppressed and fearful closet-cases due to society's views. Homosexuality was illegal and the laws were enforced. Homosexuals were routinely railroaded by their families into straight marriages where they spent miserable, unfulfilled lives. The majority were maladapted as a result of living in such an environment and this WAS supported by the evidence.

Today things are different for homosexuals, not because there's anything different with homosexuals, but because there is something different with the environment they find themselves in. So, naturally, the DSM was updated.

This is the key feature of psychiatry/psychology that you are missing as compared to Scientology. Psychiatry/psychology are (inexact) sciences and as such are subject to review and update in the face of new evidence.



and all that peer-review still allowed for psychiatry to label homosexuality as a disease and a disorder of the mind. Is this the way they work on all their cases? where the ends justify the means, in essence, the fact that we have labelled homosexuality as a malady, and forced them into being repressed and social pariahs, which in turn makes them depressed or suicidal, makes our previous diagnosis correct?

Quote:

Scientologists, on the other hand, made up dogma and have stuck to it for over half a century without update. Its dogma is not subject to review and update because it's made up, it's invented. New discoveries are irrelevant to made up junk which was wrong when it was made up and is still wrong today.



actually, scientologists have made many updates to their dogma, and stated that they were wrong about certain procedures, and changed them accordingly.

Quote:

Have you read Dianetics?

I'm no expert on Scientology, but for the record, I have read Dianetics; I found it to be entertaining fiction.



FINALLY!, we have a perfect example of what I have absolutly no problem with. You read it, and foudn it to be bullshit. great! that is all that really needed to be said in this thread. To go on further, and bash the church , just because you think your opinion should be acceptable for everyone else, is just plain ridiculous. You found it to be bullshit.... good, does that mean that everyone should find it to be bullshit? or that it is impossible for anyone to find personal truth which can help them improve their life? nope!
I have found plenty of spirituality in fictional work, Carlos Casteneda being a great example.

Quote:

And, back in the late 70s I did an 'audit' at the church's facility in Coral Gables, FL (near Miami); I found it to be entertaining bullshit.





apply above statement here as well.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4369750 - 07/04/05 03:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
psilocyberin, are you aware of Operation Snow White?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

Not only did high ranking members of the Church of Scientology conspire to infiltrate government offices and steal documents, the FBI raids following their arrest turned up documents outlining plans for illegal activities, including conspiracies to frame people of various crimes.

Oh, and a few quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy





Yes, i am aware of that, and so what? how does this discredit the millions of people who have improved their lives?

I would also like to give you a nice little disclaimer i found on wikipedia. if you want the source... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer

which states.....:
Quote:

Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups who are developing a common resource of human knowledge. The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection and World Wide Web browser to ALTER ITS CONTENT. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise necessary to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.

That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields.


No formal peer review




wow.... there is that peer review stuff you guys are so infatuated with....
so, yeah, keep on using wikipedia as a source if you want.... ill just respond with its own disclaimer.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4369774 - 07/04/05 03:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)


Ah, yes, now i understand. So Psychiatry can make unsubstantiated claims and speak scientifically about theories which are based solely on public opinion, but scientologists have to account for ever peice of belief they have with scientific datum... yeah, i get it now.... its a double standard.



and



Look at all the scientists that went against public opinion and see that those were some of the greatest minds of our time which debunked many of the public opinion perpetuated myths. Just because peer review exists, doesnt make it infallible, especially if it is reviewed by like minded scientists who seem to be subverted by the same bias and swayed by the same public opinion.


What are you talking about? A scientific study cannot determine whether or not something is a disease.

Know why? Calling something a disease is like saying "it's a bad thing."

When psychiatrists defined homosexuality as a disease, they were simply putting it on a list of problems to address, not making any kind of scientific claim.

What the hell were they supposed to do? Is there some kind of scientific study for which the results can be "being gay is acceptable and not shameful"? Of course not.

Comparing this to making up information about how the brain works makes no sense at all.

Compare these two statements.

"I think people who practice homosexuality are doing something wrong."

"The brain works stores memories at 24 frames per second."

One is a statment of value, which is based entirely on person opinion, and cannot be measured in any possible way. The other one is a definite statement about the physical nature of something.

I dont see how you can justigy the actions of these psych related groups which have done the exact same things in which you accuse scientology of being so malicious for.

Are you basing that statement entirely on what the Church of Scientology says, or do you have any real evidence? A definite example, perhaps?

Why do you think that the Church of Scientology is singled out? Just random chance?

What about Mormons, the fastest growing religion on the planet. They receive a certain amount of mockery, why aren't people conspiring against them all the time? Could it perhaps be because one of the tenets of fair play is that it's okay to make things up about your opponents if it will help you?

How can you sit here and make an accusation like that, about a book that you have never read? doesnt sound very credible. How can you say "Dianetics is bullshit" when you havent even read the book? come on now, this is just getting ridiculous.

Well, frankly, because in your next statement, you claim that the book doesn't even need to have the things I'm looking for; evidence. So why the fuck would I want to read a book that explains things to me without providing any evidence or justification? That would be an excercise in futility.

Every religion claims it can solve all your problems, why arent you asking these other religions to scientifically prove why they believe that?

I am. Obviously you've never read anything I've posted here outside of this thread.

Why don't I question other religions within this thread? Because this thread is about Scientology.

Also, of course, unlike other religions, scientology actually refers to dianetics as a science (right in the title of the book, no less), and unlike other religions, the church promotes the idea of harassing and publicly demonizing their opponents.

You ever think that maybe if Scientology were really as nice, sincere, and honest as other religions, they wouldn't get the flak they get?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4369779 - 07/04/05 03:32 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Diploid, for the record, any indication of sources of information in Dianetics? From your post, I get the impression that there is little or no evidence that it was anything but fabricated.

No references or sources of any kind (surprised?).

It does include a brief bio of Hubbard where they touch on his illustrious university career studying mathematics and physics; they omit the fact that he was expelled from university for bad grades (surprised?).

A lie of omission is still a lie.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 04:15 PM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4369793 - 07/04/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)


wow.... there is that peer review stuff you guys are so infatuated with....
so, yeah, keep on using wikipedia as a source if you want.... ill just respond with its own disclaimer.


Which is actually fairly stupid, since the editors are extremely good about editing out vandalism, and there is consistant debate and requests for validation about information available on their discussion pages.

If there's anything on wikipedia that you don't think is true, feel free to google it and read one of the many other websites which will tell you exactly the same facts.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irs-snow.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/operation-snow-white
http://www.skeptictank.org/nl/nutl318.htm
http://www.xenutv.com/print/canada/globe-snowwhite-010180.htm

how does this discredit the millions of people who have improved their lives?

If you write a compelling book telling people that staring at their shoes for an hour a day could change their lives for the better, you could have an army of people claiming it's the gospel truth. Being able to do that doesn't excuse all kinds of slimey behavior.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Diploid]
    #4369797 - 07/04/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)


No references our sources of any kind (surprised?).

It does include a brief bio of Hubbard where they touch on his illustrious university career studying mathematics and physics; the omit the fact that he was expelled from university for bad grades (surprised?).

A lie of omission is still a lie.



Shocking!
...and I'd had him pegged as such an honest individual.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4369845 - 07/04/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

To go on further, and bash the church , just because you think your opinion should be acceptable for everyone else, is just plain ridiculous.

No psilocyberin, get it straight:

I bash the Church of Scientology for claiming their dogma is science when it's not, for sanctioning crimes including breaking into government offices and stealing government documents, for lying about what the E-Meter is and measures, for defying court orders to stop practicing medicine by changing people's medications without their doctor's consent, for conspiring to frame their critics and have them thrown in jail, for trying to silence the alt.religion.scientology Internet newsgroup, for claiming 75% success rate in drug rehabilitation when their success rate is closer to 6%, for creating alternate identities without disclosure to recruit members...

And finally, I bash the of Church of Scientology for killing Lisa McPherson. :mad2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (07/04/05 04:18 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: felix4life]
    #4370382 - 07/04/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=148082794&p=y48x835xx

Brooke Shields' war of words with Tom Cruise has taken another twist after the Suddenly Susan actress slammed Cruise's recent rant against psychotherapy and anti-depressant medication on US TV show Today.

Cruise, who is a devotee of L Ron Hubbard's Scientology religion, lashed out Shields in an interview last month for condoning the use of drugs she used to help overcome post-partum depression.

But Shields is determined to have the final word - and she is even thankful to Cruise for increasing public knowledge about the debilitating mental illness.

Shields tells the New York Times: "I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Mr Cruise has never suffered from postpartum depression.

"To suggest that I was wrong to take drugs to deal with my depression, and that instead I should have taken vitamins and exercised shows an utter lack of understanding about postpartum depression and childbirth in general.

"If any good can come of Mr Cruise's ridiculous rant, let's hope that it gives much-needed attention to a serious disease."

:rotfl:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinelkfity315
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #4370964 - 07/05/05 12:43 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kosmic_charlie said:
Tom Cruise is a brain-washed douche bag. Scientology is a crock of shit.




amen to that dude hes a fuckin faggot i think hes soo gay he just wonts the media attention fcukin celebreties


--------------------
"My advice to people today is as follows: If you take the game of life seriously, if you take your nervous system seriously, if you take your sense organs seriously, if you take the energy process seriously, you must turn on, tune in, and drop out. "
Timothy Leary

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Diploid]
    #4371397 - 07/05/05 05:19 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I bash the Church of Scientology for claiming their dogma is science when it's not, for sanctioning crimes including breaking into government offices and stealing government documents, for lying about what the E-Meter is and measures, for defying court orders to stop practicing medicine by changing people's medications without their doctor's consent, for conspiring to frame their critics and have them thrown in jail, for trying to silence the alt.religion.scientology Internet newsgroup, for claiming 75% success rate in drug rehabilitation when their success rate is closer to 6%, for creating alternate identities without disclosure to recruit members...

And finally, I bash the of Church of Scientology for killing Lisa McPherson.




I couldn't have said it better myself. Having seen the Cult of $cientology destroy a family first hand, I have no respect at all for anybody that supports their drivel. They are very good at convincing the layman that they understand science (it is in the name) the same way that a magician is very good at convincing the layman that the impossible is happening. People understand that the magician is just an act, but the cult claims to be the real deal. They are preying on ignorance at the expense of peoples lives... they are the tyranny of evil men.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Seuss]
    #4371453 - 07/05/05 06:51 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I hope psilocyberin isn't reporting us to the local Dianetics center... we'll have legions of Scientologist lawyers on our asses in no time.

He DID already say that he agreed with what they did to alt.religion.scientology...


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4371461 - 07/05/05 07:01 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

This debate  has been amazingly long. I am not a fan of any reliqion. I think mostly they are harmfull and part of the cultural matrix of control over populations.

However, even in the worst religions, there are some who find usfullness in them to the point of spiritual growth. Ususlly it is a stepping stone and nothing more.

The evil that religions do should be brought to light. That is good for everyone in my opinion. Individuals who gain from the religion might do well to let it take its lumps and stand or fall on it's own. They have gotten what they need. :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleFurrySheep
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Icelander]
    #4372827 - 07/05/05 04:25 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

He thinks his opinion matters just because he is wealthy.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Icelander]
    #4372881 - 07/05/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)


However, even in the worst religions, there are some who find usfullness in them to the point of spiritual growth. Ususlly it is a stepping stone and nothing more.


I think that's a valid point, but I'm not sure that the religion itself is responsible. Anyone who decides to seriously put in the effort to change their lives has the capacity to succeed. With most religions (or self help cults) claiming to be able to help people change their lives, it's only natural that lots of people with an interest in doing so will attach themselves to a religion. A church can provide a community of people who are willing to help you change yourself. Someone heavily involved in an addiction will likely need to find a new community to be able to avoid their addiction, and a church can provide that. It's difficult to say whether or not the actual tenets of religions have any bearing on ones success in achieving their goals, but I wouldn't be too suprised to learn that simply having friends who are willing to support your goals gives someone the same advantage as Christianity or Scientology.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: tom cruise is da man [Re: Phluck]
    #4376704 - 07/06/05 05:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry it took me so long to get back to the thread. I didnt have a chance to sit down and post until now.


Quote:

Phluck said:

Ah, yes, now i understand. So Psychiatry can make unsubstantiated claims and speak scientifically about theories which are based solely on public opinion, but scientologists have to account for ever peice of belief they have with scientific datum... yeah, i get it now.... its a double standard.



and




Ok, just wanted to let it be understood that while you have no problem with psychiatry going about making outrageous and unfounded claims, an organization which has a duty to society to be unbiased and constantly scientific, you have a huge problem with a religious organization making outrageous and unfounded claims, which has no duty to society to be unbiased and scientific.



Quote:


Look at all the scientists that went against public opinion and see that those were some of the greatest minds of our time which debunked many of the public opinion perpetuated myths. Just because peer review exists, doesnt make it infallible, especially if it is reviewed by like minded scientists who seem to be subverted by the same bias and swayed by the same public opinion.


What are you talking about? A scientific study cannot determine whether or not something is a disease.

Know why? Calling something a disease is like saying "it's a bad thing."

When psychiatrists defined homosexuality as a disease, they were simply putting it on a list of problems to address, not making any kind of scientific claim.





from Websters dictionary..... Disease: a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning : SICKNESS, MALADY
Nope, nothing that needs scientific backing there.....

Quote:

What the hell were they supposed to do? Is there some kind of scientific study for which the results can be "being gay is acceptable and not shameful"? Of course not.




I hope my tax dollars dont go to funding psychiatric institutions so that they can tell me what is socially acceptable and what isnt. Psychiatrists were not just saying that homosexuality was wrong or bad, they were saying that it was an actual sickness, based on their scientific knowledge, which was wrong. If psychiatry wants to be the organization which deems what is wrong or right then they need to be called "the supreme court".

Quote:

Comparing this to making up information about how the brain works makes no sense at all.

Compare these two statements.

"I think people who practice homosexuality are doing something wrong."

"The brain works stores memories at 24 frames per second."



Why didnt you use the word disease. I could never find the word disease to be synonymous with the word wrong....anywhere. If you would replace the word wrong with disease, then i would find no difference between the two statements. Where did you start getting the idea that disease was the same as saying something is wrong? "Johnny, look both ways before crossing the street, because if you dont, yuo have a disease"....??????????

Quote:

One is a statment of value, which is based entirely on person opinion, and cannot be measured in any possible way. The other one is a definite statement about the physical nature of something.



No, one is some delusion you have with replacing words to fit your argument, the other cannot be measured scientifically and thusly is an opinion of a religious group. If it can be proven, then i urge the scientific community to prove scientology wrong.

Quote:

I dont see how you can justigy the actions of these psych related groups which have done the exact same things in which you accuse scientology of being so malicious for.

Are you basing that statement entirely on what the Church of Scientology says, or do you have any real evidence? A definite example, perhaps?
http://www.lightlink.com/freezone/timetrack/1977.htm

Quote:

Why do you think that the Church of Scientology is singled out? Just random chance?

What about Mormons, the fastest growing religion on the planet. They receive a certain amount of mockery, why aren't people conspiring against them all the time? Could it perhaps be because one of the tenets of fair play is that it's okay to make things up about your opponents if it will help you?



There is a reason why it is called fair play.... because turnabout, is fair play. If all these organizations can make up unsubstantiated claims, then why cant the church do the same?
Also, the mormons havent been the target of thousands of FBI raids and the biggest tax audit in US history.

Quote:

How can you sit here and make an accusation like that, about a book that you have never read? doesnt sound very credible. How can you say "Dianetics is bullshit" when you havent even read the book? come on now, this is just getting ridiculous.

Well, frankly, because in your next statement, you claim that the book doesn't even need to have the things I'm looking for; evidence. So why the fuck would I want to read a book that explains things to me without providing any evidence or justification? That would be an excercise in futility.




You mean.... like your psych 101 text books, which all claim that there is such a thing as chemical imbalance which is at the heart of every single cause for any mental disorder..... right? Well, here, i got some really great news for you... http://cchr.org/pseudoscience/the_facts.htm

Now, I know that it is CCHR, which is highly biased, but so are your sources, and if you cannot allow this source, which quotes other sources (just to make sure, i verified as many as i could, some i did not have access to an archive), then none of the xenu.net sources, nor operation clambake should be admitted. This source claims this.... "Elliot Valenstein, Ph.D. says, "[T]here are no tests available for assessing the chemical status of a living person's brain." The late Dr. Loren Mosher stated, "?there are no external validating criteria for psychiatric diagnoses."
They even have quote from the president of the American Psychiatric Association saying "they have no clear cut lab tests" regarding chemical imbalances. As through my own research, i have yet to find any scientific studies which prove ADHD to be a chemical imbalance. If you could find one, it would be greatly appreciated.... a scientific study that is, not one that just states the "facts" but which shows them.

Edited by psilocyberin (07/06/05 05:04 PM)

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