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OfflineAsanteA
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Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it
    #4330216 - 06/23/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sages,

The matter is this: I've been in a philosophical/spiritual Judas Cradle for months now and I'd like your opinions and considerations to perhaps help me break the deadlock


THE ISSUE: I'm confronted with dangerous misinformation regarding the Witching Herbs (datura, belladonna, angels trumpets etc) all over the web. There literally is nothing truly good online that has been exhaustively researched like such a matter should be. These herbs are highly toxic. To get a strong visionary state from them is to poison yourself to a significant degree. In addition to that the visionary state evoked is one that can be profoundly unhealthy psychologically.

On one hand people are hospitalized and DYING mostly because of uninformedness and dangerous misinformation, on the other hand providing solid information might encourage some to seek the experience and come to harm because of that.

Should I write a Witching Herbs FAQ

I've got a treasure-trove of well-researched information. It would add to the collective body of information as it bundles many sources of independent information with dots never before connected.
Now let's look at the deadlock:

-----

PHILOSOPHICAL: this information can save lives but it can also take lives. It dismisses fables and factoids for facts, but this very safety enhancement might fascinate lure people into it which otherwise would not have happened. Should I be the one to let truth prevail or let misinformation persist. In either way I'm taking on a responsibility, no quickies here.

ETHICAL: Is it ethically justifyable to unleash something onto the world that has great potential to save or harm people?

SPIRITUAL: The deliriant state evoked by the Tropane Herbs has very sinister sides. It is the basis of the medievel notion of Hell. I have yet to find true Evil but I saw quite some Dark Sights.
Should I guard the gate to Hell so none will enter or give information about what lies beyond and how people can get there?


-----


Sages, please shine your light on this matter. Vote, discuss, get specific. What would YOU do to break this Deadlock if you were facing it yourself?


.
Would YOU, if you had the facts, write a Witching Herbs FAQ knowing full well you could save lives but endanger others with your information?
You may choose only one
I would not hesitate and let it be known
I would write it, but very carefully
- DEADLOCK -
I think its better not to write it
I would certainly not write it.


Votes accepted from (06/23/05 10:23 PM) to (No end specified)
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4330284 - 06/23/05 10:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I think I would like to purchase one of the first copies of this work. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4330292 - 06/23/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Doesn't your avatar give your answer? :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4330298 - 06/23/05 10:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Solanaceous plants such as datura, henbane, and nightshade are some dangerous shit. In a recent thread I detailed my older brother's experience with datura:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...e=2&fpart=1
(at bottom of page)
Posting information that might encourage their use is very tricky. You might save a life...or end several. This is a responsibility that should be carefully weighed. There are a lot of 18 yr old kids that come here looking for encouragement to use such plants because they are easy to find, and are often seen, mistakenly, as a substitute for marijuana or LSD. Post some incorrect info on LSD....no real biggie because it is non-toxic...at worst a bad trip results. Post incorrect info about datura...and people might die.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineajna
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4330897 - 06/24/05 01:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

personally i think your information would do more good than harm, but i do see your problem. is benefiting thousands of lives worth ruining even one? maybe not.

perhaps you could host the information, and take email requests so that you can monitor who has access to it? obviously this would mean more work for yourself, but there might be an option there somewhere.

or perhaps the witches book of spells is not for the eyes of man?  :confused:


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: ajna]
    #4331131 - 06/24/05 03:13 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Knowledge to the people. Do not make light of the risks, but do not overstate them either. Balance. Write it, as something that is meant to harmonize knowledge.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: ajna]
    #4331146 - 06/24/05 03:20 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I think I would like to purchase one of the first copies of this work.




Quote:

perhaps you could host the information, and take email requests so that you can monitor who has access to it? obviously this would mean more work for yourself, but there might be an option there somewhere.





I've already decided that if i do it, i will make it public domain/free of charge since semi-closed systems offer fake security anyway. Someone will put it on their P2P and voila.

So no: if I do it it will be for the Shroomery, Erowid etc.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4331280 - 06/24/05 04:36 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

tell all
you are not responsible with what people do with the info, there are always going to be those that are going to listen and those that are going to do it anyways and use without such vaulable info. but if you get to those that going to do it anyways better for them to know what they are getting themself into before hand


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: spudamore]
    #4331282 - 06/24/05 04:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

like i said in the pm, you aren't the world's babysitter so don't try to censor information that you think is dangerous. We are people to who can make choices. evolution will weed out the people who make the uninformed stupid ones


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4331287 - 06/24/05 04:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If you don't write it, how many lives will be lost to misinformation?


People will do what they do. Might as well offer what you've got. And you've got a lot of knowledge, so share. :heart:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: spudamore]
    #4331326 - 06/24/05 05:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you are not responsible with what people do with the info




Quote:

you aren't the world's babysitter so don't try to censor information that you think is dangerous.




If it were that simple my deadlock would have lasted days, not months.
I feel I am responsible and its not censoring information, its creating a new body of information on a subject that takes lives.\

You can basically compare this to the following:

We all know there are k001 b0mb b00kz on the Internet. If you were a pyrotechnician would you choose to publish a manual on how to make a relatively safe 1 oz fireworks salute to the standards of the art? You know some recreational boomers will be saved by it but that others will shrug their shoulders, screw it into a 2" steel pipe and have their arm ripped off their bodies by an endcap at 100ft.

See the dilemma? Irresponsibility is out there, but you'd still create something inherently dangerous and subject to abuse. It will be safer than most of the stuff that floats around but it still explores an area that is really -really- best avoided alltogether.
Hard call!


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4331337 - 06/24/05 05:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

but you are still not responsible for that person taking the plant.

even if they bother to look for information and guides, its better for them to be fully informed for what they are getting themselves into than not.


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem


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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Asante]
    #4331341 - 06/24/05 05:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

the only thing you would be responsible for is the accuracy of the information you provide. What people decide to do with that information is up to them. My CS professors teach me about network security. If I get busted for breaking into the campus servers, its not their fault. Not a great example though... But if you have information you want to share, you should definitely share it. Its no ones fault if they decide to abuse it. And I have a feeling the information you would be writing about datura would not be in any way promoting the use, if anything, scaring people away.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: fearfect]
    #4332467 - 06/24/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, yea. I am a total supporter of the freedom of honest wisdom and information. I am also on the side, that you can safe more lifes with honest and balanced information, then you will, by keeping it for your own.
As a solution i would consider a big header, where you will share all that concerns you had, before publishing.

And yes, of course, if someone has to experiment with datura-stuff, and he's halfways pleased with his life so far, he should use the MOST CARE he can think of, because this thing can not only totally destroy his life, it also can add so much pain on what he once saw as his life, that he would wish, he was dead immediately !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4333043 - 06/24/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I wonder if autos would be a good example. If I invent the auto knowing people my get drunk and drive them and kill innocent people, should I not share this knowledge with the world?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Icelander]
    #4333363 - 06/24/05 07:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So, the government should post the plans for hydrogen bombs on the net...we want freedom of course...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4333388 - 06/24/05 07:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well I think that info has already been published.

This issue isn't quite as large. But here of course I would opt for more info. If someone took a plant substance and killed themselves, that would be it. They couldn't take hundereds of thousands of people with them. So... maybe this is a little different.

What do ya think?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Icelander]
    #4333405 - 06/24/05 07:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

No it hasn't...you can get a good idea...but many crucial details are missing. A plunger bomb can easily be made, but a fusion bomb is another matter.
It would be bad to find out that some dumb kid wanting to get stoned keeled over after applying a flying ointment made too strong...worse yet...law enforcement shut the site down because of such an occurrance. Believe me...if cops want to find a reason to do it they will.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4333417 - 06/24/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Then why is Erowid up and running still. You can kill yourself with many of the substances they talk about.

I guess we have to always live in fear of the athorities. But sometimes pushing the limits is ok.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Major RL spiritual/philosophical deadlock - shed your light on it [Re: Icelander]
    #4333430 - 06/24/05 07:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

True. http://www.erowid.org/plants/datura/datura.shtml I just generally would not encourage anyone to use these substances because I have seen what they do...and what is the use if they make you sick and act out of control?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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