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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: barfightlard]
    #4328454 -

Bellylard said: Have you wrote to your government asking why your country hasn't invaded North Korea, Israel, or Iran yet????



The table is being set for Iran, with the UN resolution calling for the end of their nuclear enrichment program, and with Russia coming around to the idea of pre-emptive protection.

Iran has a large pro-western element, and I don't sense there is the fearful repression you see in Iraq. Toppling Iran might be easier than we think, although it is larger than Iraq.

Bringing Iran in line will greatly help wth Iraq as it is Iran that is in large part supporting the terrorists in Iraq. Geographically then, from east to west, you'd have Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq in line, with Russia on board for support.

Sounds like an achievable goals...


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4328460 -

Redstorm said:
Theres no way we could be invading Iraq to fight militant Islam. Iraq is one of the most secular (or at least moderate) Muslim countries in the Middle East. I think Bush just took advantage of wide support after 9/11 and took out Saddam.


The opportunities for fighting militant Islam by going into Iraq are great. If the Bush administration is able to reshape the Middle East and bring democracy and happiness to the Muslims, this will cause anger to abate thus making Muslims less angy at us. This tactic could be considered to be "countering militant Islam".

Also, what if the Bush administration foresaw that a bunch of Islamic militants would stream over the borders to fight us? That could be considered a great opportunity to draw them out into the open to kill them.

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4328475 -

Ok, I agree with you there. I thought you meant fighting militants directly in Iraq.

I think that a huge part of us being over there is to try to create some stability. Somewhat of a Muslim Israel, if you will.

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4328568 -

RandallFlagg asks:

Quote:
Do you think certain members of the Bush administration were thinking of any geo-political concerns when it came to taking out Saddam?


Certainly. Just as members of the Clinton administration had done. See the first post in this thread and remember that it was under Clinton's watch that Congress passed the Iraq Regime Change bill.

And it wasn't just American politicians who had come to the realization that leaving Hussein in power in 1991 was a grievous error. That's why Bush had no difficulty rounding up so many other players to join in the task. Hussein's intransigence was one of the biggest (actually the biggest) challenges to the legitimacy of the United Nations, and had been for over a decade.

No rational world leader would object to converting a terrorist-supporting international renegade state from a totalitarian dictatorship to a peaceful democracy absent an ulterior motive. And as the unravelling scandal of the UN Oil for Food program shows, the objections of Russia, Germany, and especially France were not in fact objectively rational but were based on their now-revealed ulterior motives of the sweetheart side deals with Hussein re access to Iraq's oil supply.


Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4328615 -

Quote:
No rational world leader would object to converting a terrorist-supporting international renegade state from a totalitarian dictatorship to a peaceful democracy absent an ulterior motive.


If such could be done by simply rubbing a magic lamp and using one of your wishes, what rational human would object? But, to my knowledge, no one's found that magic lamp quite yet. In the real world this action, like all actions, has its costs -- nearing 2000 US boys and girls dead, quite a few times that injured, anywhere from some tens of thousands to over a hundred thousand Iraqi civilian deaths, and of course the money that's being ripped from my pockets (whether by actual taxation or a reduction in purchasing power).


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4328630 -

Redstorm said:
Ok, I agree with you there. I thought you meant fighting militants directly in Iraq.

I think that a huge part of us being over there is to try to create some stability. Somewhat of a Muslim Israel, if you will.


This is from a post I wrote a long time ago. I listed all of my suspicions as to why the Iraq war was pursued.

Why I think Iraq was invaded:

1. Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). The intelligence agencies (domestic and foreign) thought Saddam had them. It appears as if he did not. The intelligence community fucked up.

2. To reduce our reliance on troublesome Saudi Arabia. If we could establish a friendly government in Iraq, we would not have to be close allies with the Saudis.

3. To alleviate the suffering of the Iraqi people. As long as Saddam was in power, he would not obey the resolutions levied against him which means the sanctions would have stayed in effect indefinitely. As long as the sanctions were in effect, Iraqis would have continued to starve and die.

4. To get troops on the borders of Iran and Syria as a warning. Both of these countries blatantly support Islamic extremists.

5. To help build and spread democracy throughout the Middle East. If the Arabs could become free, they would not be as mad anymore. If they are not as mad they will be less likely to adopt militant attitudes and therefore would be less likely to engage in terrorist acts.

6. To save Iraq?s oil fields. Because of the sanctions, the Iraqis could not get the proper equipment to maintain their oil fields. If oil fields are not maintained, the oil that can be retrieved from them decreases until they are ruined. Every day that went by, Iraq was losing national wealth because of that. If the oil fields can be properly maintained, the wealth will still be there for the Iraqis and it will also stabilize world oil supplies.

7. With Saddam gone the U.S. government can pull troops out of Saudi Arabia without looking wimpy. Having American troops in Saudi Arabia (which houses the holiest sites of Islam) is one of the main reasons that Muslims hate the U.S.

8. The Middle East is notorious for inspiring cultures that respect power. By taking out a blatantly hostile leader, we send a message to the Middle East in general??Don?t mess with us?.

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4328634 -

Quote:
Do you view the effort in Iraq as being spawned by 9/11 but not related to it? By this I mean does Iraq have nothing to do with the war on fundamentalist Islam, but we will use 9/11 as a catalyst to take people out who are hostile to us?


9/11 was a catalyst. Pre 9/11 the US basically laid back and let international bad actors stomp all over it with nothing more than pro forma "reprisals" and often not even that. See my post in another thread on that.

Remember that the Clinton administration spent considerable time and energy agonizing over what should be done with Hussein. They just never got around to doing anything about it.

Look, you can't just mosquito-bash these guys one by one and expect to make much progress (although you still have to do the bashing), you also have to drain the swamp. Iraq was not only arguably the largest swamp (with the notable exception of Iran) it was also easy to gain agreement from the other major players. Hussein's intransigence re the conditional ceasefire agreement left him an easy mark on that front. Whereas Iran hadn't done anything overt since the days of the Carter administration. They are a lot more subtle than Hussein was.

Quote:
Did it bother you that the Bush adminstration is afraid to tell the American people why Muslims really hate the U.S.? Bush never admits that they hate the U.S. because of our support for Israel, our support for unpopular Arab regimes, or our troops being in Arab countries. He gives reasons like, "they hate us for our freedoms". This is a lie. Does it bother you that he lies about this?


It doesn't bother me because Bush isn't lying about it.

A lot of people who haven't read the teachings of the "Founding Fathers" of the jihadist movement (or even for that matter read all of Osama's various fatwahs) just don't grasp that what Bush is saying is fundamentally (though a tad broad-brushed) right on the money. The nutbars do in fact see the West as godless. They do see the West as decadent and unholy and not strict enough with our women (who they consider whores) and they see democracy as against the will of Allah. Hell, Zarqawi went to a great deal of trouble to condemn democracy right before the Iraqi election, remember?

Let's remember there is no shortage of Islamofascists bombing and kidnapping and beheading in any number of countries that don't support Israel or Saudi Arabia.

It may not seem rational to you -- you seek rational explanations such as "interference" in the affairs of other countries or support for Israel because you are yourself a rational human. But never forget that religion by definition is not rational, even peaceful religions such as Buddhism and Jainism and Mormonism.

And fundamentalist Islamofascism is far from the peaceful religions I mentioned above.


Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4328651 -


1.Because we're in Iraq and Saddam's out we no longer need troops in Saudi Arabia keeping an eye on him. Not equal but still needs to be subtracted. You also need to subtract the cost of enforcing two no-fly zones.

2.25 million Iraqi people are free.

3.If Saddam was killing x thousand people each month, and the current death toll from criminals, insurgents and foreign terrorists is less than 1,000 month, that's x-1,000 Iraqi lives (X 24 months) saved by the liberation of Iraq.

4.How many would have died or remained enslaved if Kadhaffi had become a nuclear power? His coming clean was a direct result of OIF.

5.How much safer are the people in the Middle East because Syria is backing out of Lebanon? Part of the same fire raging after the torch of freedom was lit in Iraq.

Same for the Ukraine.

How come Egypt suddenly agreed to two-party elections after the Iraq election?

Why do the women of Kuwait suddenly realize they deserve the right to vote?

Why did Saudi Arabia suddenly decide elections are fun, even if they're fake?

Tens of thousands of militant, anti-American, Islamic fanatics are dead because they attacked armed American soldiers instead of innocent civilians.

Probably most strategically significant, OIF caused Al Qaida to panic and attacked Saudi Arabia. Now the Saudis, instead of supporting Al Qaida worldwide, are fighting gun battles against them. Their crackdowns are unihibited by any concern for terrorists' civil rights


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4328737 -

Ancalagon writes:

Quote:
In the real world this action, like all actions, has its costs -- nearing 2000 US boys and girls dead, quite a few times that injured, anywhere from some tens of thousands to over a hundred thousand Iraqi civilian deaths, and of course the money that's being ripped from my pockets (whether by actual taxation or a reduction in purchasing power).


I agree with your viewpoint. I repeat for the hundred and fiftieth time in this forum that I remain to this day unconvinced it was correct for Portugal, Spain, Italy, Australia, England, Poland, the United States and others to have deposed Hussein by force at the time they chose to do it. It was quite simply more the problem of Iraqis (and their immediate neighbors) than the problem of any of the above.

But when you mention costs, it's pretty easy to point to costs today that we know have been incurred. Strange how no one ever seems to examine the costs which would have accrued had Hussein been left in power. I think I'll start a new thread about that. I have just the essay in mind. Look for a new thread titled, "Whether This War Was Worth It". http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4328732/an/0/page/0


Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4329566 -



Sweet Jesus, where in the hell did you get that? I want a bumper sticker!


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4330026 -

Phred said:
RandalFlagg said:
Did it bother you that the Bush adminstration is afraid to tell the American people why Muslims really hate the U.S.? Bush never admits that they hate the U.S. because of our support for Israel, our support for unpopular Arab regimes, or our troops being in Arab countries. He gives reasons like, "they hate us for our freedoms". This is a lie. Does it bother you that he lies about this?


It doesn't bother me because Bush isn't lying about it.

A lot of people who haven't read the teachings of the "Founding Fathers" of the jihadist movement (or even for that matter read all of Osama's various fatwahs) just don't grasp that what Bush is saying is fundamentally (though a tad broad-brushed) right on the money. The nutbars do in fact see the West as godless. They do see the West as decadent and unholy and not strict enough with our women (who they consider whores) and they see democracy as against the will of Allah. Hell, Zarqawi went to a great deal of trouble to condemn democracy right before the Iraqi election, remember?




Yes, I am sure that a lot of the distrust and hatred that is directed towards the West by extremist Mulisms is because of a profound religious hatred for our way of life and our "decadence".

But, you must admit that the U.S.'s support of Israel, our support of unpopular Arab regimes, our history of meddling, and our stationing of troops on Arab territories are the main reasons why the average rank and file Muslim doesn't like the U.S. And if we were to stop doing those things, a lot of the animosity that Muslims have towards the U.S. would be lessened.

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4330059 -

RandalFlagg writes:

Quote:
But, you must admit that the U.S.'s support of Israel, our support of unpopular Arab regimes, our history of meddling, and our stationing of troops on Arab territories are the main reasons why the average rank and file Muslim doesn't like the U.S.


Why would I admit such a thing? It's not the case. It's not the case with even the average Iraqi, let alone the average Indonesian or Pakistani, and the average Iraqi is a hell of a lot closer to both Israel and Saudi Arabia than the millions of Muslims in Africa and Southeast Asia. Those guys don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about Israel, or anything much do to with Saudi Arabia either, for example.

Quote:
And if we were to stop doing those things, a lot of the animosity that Muslims have towards the U.S. would be lessened.


Believe that if it makes you feel better but remember these are people who are still pissed at the loss of al-Andaluz (Spain) half a millenium ago.


Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4330071 -

RandalFlagg said:
But, you must admit that the U.S.'s support of Israel, our support of unpopular Arab regimes, our history of meddling, and our stationing of troops on Arab territories are the main reasons why the average rank and file Muslim doesn't like the U.S.


Phred said:
Why would I admit such a thing? It's patently untrue. It's patently untrue of even the average Iraqi, let alone the average Indonesian or Pakistani. Those guys don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about Israel, or anything much do to with Saudi Arabia either, for example.



What happened when the U.S. put troops in Saudi Arabia for Gulf War I? Osama became enraged that infidels were on Saudi soil.

Given that you are a news hound, have you not noticed the Muslim anger and disgust at various actions by the U.S.? Most of them don't bitch about the "Godless West" in their rantings....they bitch that we give Israel money and weapons.

Why do you ignore what they are saying when they explain their anger? Do you not believe them?

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4330329 -



Sweet Jesus, where in the hell did you get that? I want a bumper sticker!



Go Dick Go!
Go Dick Go!
Go Dick Go!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4330407 -

It is true that the diverse jihadi networks (of which Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda is but one part) TEND to see the West as Godless, but that is missing the point. Militant Islam is only a 'national security' threat to the US because such networks have so successfully recruited otherwise-moderate Muslims to their cause. Constant recruitment is absolutely essential for such networks to continue functioning. But their success can NOT be simpl reduced to bin Laden and co. pronouncing zealous fatwahs about the West's infidelities. Most Muslims do not agree with the specifics of Osama's fundamentalism, but find his politics very convincing. This is why US foreign policy in the Middle East, past and present, goes against what's required to 'win' the War on Terror. If this Administration truly wanted to eliminate the terrorist threat, they would withdraw from the Middle East. Some say that this would only encourage the terrorists. And for the extremists this is true. But at the same time, withdrawing from the Middle East would instantly starve such extremists of their capacity for further recruitment.

Unfortunately, the Administration's greater geostrategic priorities in the Middle East far outweigh their desire to win the War on Terror, not least because the War on Terror is a very effective pretext upon which to promote its aggressive foreign policy.


--------------------
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."
-Bertrand de Jouvenel

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: BlackOctagon]
    #4330575 -

Blackoctagon said: "withdrawing from the Middle East would instantly starve such extremists of their capacity for further recruitment. "

Van Gogh suspect 'the perfect Jihad recruit'






AMSTERDAM ? Dutch media's attention turned on Friday to profiling the suspected killer of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, with one report claiming Mohammed B. was a "dream candidate" for extremist Jihad recruiters.

Newspaper Trouw said second-generation Moroccan immigrant youths are being targeted by Islamic extremists who hope to recruit them for Jihad, or holy war.

One of the characteristics of the recruiters is that they isolate youths from their family and friends. There was nothing out of the ordinary with Mohammed B. until he allegedly fell into the hands of extremists.

B. reportedly became strongly religious in 2003, and as a fundamentalist Muslim he was a target for jihad recruiters. Extremists look for Muslim youths from second-generation immigrant families who speak Dutch well and are well educated.

The perfect candidate would be going through an identity crisis with little hope in society. They would, for example, have a criminal record. They would also have strong views about the oppression of Muslims....

B. had also carried out volunteer work for some time for the Stichting Eigenwijks, an organisation of co-operative residents in Amsterdam Slotervaart.

But B. started placing increasing demands on his work situation in view of his faith, eventually making it impossible for him to continue working for the foundation, newspaper De Telegraaf reported.

The foundation said B. refused to serve alcoholic drinks, and his opposition to being involved in activities where both men and women were present was eventually considered "incompatible" with his function. The foundation and B. decided to part ways.

Eigenwijks helped a group of youths from Overtoomse Veld in Amsterdam to set up a workgroup in 2001. The group was concerned with the lack of adequate solutions put forward after Moroccan youths sparked riots in the suburb in April 1998.

The workgroup successfully involved youths in a series of activities, and B. was instrumental in the group's work. He was also part of the editorial team of the neighbourhood newspaper Over 't Veld.

Eigenwijks ? which said it would be closely involved in repairing community damage inflicted by Van Gogh's murder ? said it had regretted the fact that B. stopped working with the workgroup as he applied himself further to his faith. He "slowly ended all other social activities".


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4330604 -

RandalFlagg asks:

Quote:
What happened when the U.S. put troops in Saudi Arabia for Gulf War I? Osama became enraged that infidels were on Saudi soil.


Umm... I thought we were discussing -- to quote your phrase -- "average rank and file Muslims", not the jihadist leaders. We can discuss the average joe blow Muslim or we can discuss the nutbars. Make up your mind which it is to be.

Quote:
Given that you are a news hound, have you not noticed the Muslim anger and disgust at various actions by the U.S.?


Again, the Muslims most often quoted by the MSM are those heading militant mosques or running such supposedly "moderate" organizations as CAIR, not the Muslim-in-the-street.

Yet we are told over and over again that the views of Osama and Zarqawi and their ilk are representative of just "a tiny fraction" of the billion-plus members of the Religion of Peace. Are we supposed to reject this assertion or take it at face value?

I know a couple of Muslims here in Cabarete and quite a few more in Ottawa and Montreal. I understand they are not a large enough group to form any kind of scientific sample, but the ones I know care about the situation in the Mideast to a much smaller degree than many of the posters in this forum.

As for Muslim anger and disgust at US actions, I doubt the average Muslim rank and file dewd just trying to get on with his life has half as much contempt for the US as does the average Eurodenizen or for that matter the average American undergrad.



Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4330831 -

RandalFlagg said:
What happened when the U.S. put troops in Saudi Arabia for Gulf War I? Osama became enraged that infidels were on Saudi soil.


Phred said:
Umm... I thought we were discussing -- to quote your phrase -- "average rank and file Muslims", not the jihadist leaders. We can discuss the average joe blow Muslim or we can discuss the nutbars. Make up your mind which it is to be.



Bin Laden is not an average "rank and file" Muslim, but he is somewhat supported by a lot of Muslims. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that a lot of his opinions on how he disagrees with American foreign policy are held by average Muslims.

I can't completely vouch for the accuracy of the site that the following quote is from, but I do not doubt the statistics listed on it.


In the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, anger toward the United States remains pervasive, although the level of hatred has eased somewhat and support for the war on terrorism has inched up. Osama bin Laden, however, is viewed favorably by large percentages in Pakistan (65%), Jordan (55%) and Morocco (45%). Even in Turkey, where bin Laden is highly unpopular, as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable.


http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206


Phred said:
As for Muslim anger and disgust at US actions, I doubt the average Muslim rank and file dewd just trying to get on with his life has half as much contempt for the US as does the average Eurodenizen or for that matter the average American undergrad.




Reem Al-Faisal is a Saudi photographer and writer based in Jeddah.

The US has further driven us to dislike America with its blind support for a colonialist power such as Israel, in fact the only one left in the region. Whenever we have tried in the past to help alleviate the plight of the Palestinians we only got vetoed by the US at the UN Security Council followed by the free flow of arms and money to kill our fellow compatriots from Palestine to Lebanon.

Is it worth it for the million and a half Iraqis murdered in the embargo


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=64357&d=26&m=5&y=2005



And the buttons that Mr. bin Laden pushes in his statements and interviews - the injustice done to the Palestinians, the cruelty of continued sanctions against Iraq, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, the repressive and corrupt nature of US-backed Gulf governments - win a good deal of popular sympathy.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0927/p1s1-wogi.html


Why do you refuse to accept the possibility that a lot of Muslims are telling the truth when they explain why they are angry? Do you think they are lying and making stuff up when they express displeasure with US foreign policy? Why do you refuse to accept their explanations?

It's like you are not even acknowledging what they (or I) am saying. You may disagree with it, but they are plainly saying it and I can understand why these things piss them off.

Edited by RandalFlagg (06/23/05 11:17 PM)

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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4330882 -

I have no doubt there are many Muslims pissed at the US. Why should they be any different from the rest of the world? I just point out that the numbers you provide are little different from numbers I've seen posted here from surveys taken in Germany and France and even for that matter Quebec and England.

What matters to me is -- are these rank and file every day Joe Blow moderate Muslims who dislike American policy towards Israel and Saudi Arabia and Egypt etc. pissed enough to do more than grumble? In other words, is their disapproval of US foreign policy enough to make them decide one day, "Gee. Some drops of urine from an unbeliever at Guantanamo splashed through a ventilator and contaminated the Holy Koran of one of the faithful who was captured before he could martyr himself. That outrages me so much I think I'll become a martyr myself!" I don't think so.

But perhaps I give them more credit for rational behavior than you do. *shrugs*



Phred


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Re: Did the President Lie about Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4330909 -

Phred said:
I have no doubt there are many Muslims pissed at the US.



Thank you for admitting that truth. Not all of their anger is because of our differing lifestyles. They have some legitimate beefs against the U.S.


Phred said:
Why should they be any different from the rest of the world?

What matters to me is -- are these rank and file every day Joe Blow moderate Muslims who dislike American policy towards Israel and Saudi Arabia and Egypt etc. pissed enough to do more than grumble?



The Muslims seem more inclined to commit violence and terrorism than any other ethnic or religious group at the moment. A significant amount of the ones that don't commit terrorism seem to be somewhat inclined to support or be sympathetic towards it. Therefore, it is of paramount importance to be wary of them. But, it is also important to listen to what they say so you know where they are coming from. When they explain why they are pissed I believe them.


Phred said:
But perhaps I give them more credit for rational behavior than you do. *shrugs*



I am wary of Muslims. I think there is a common thread of militancy that is running through the ranks as of the past fifty years or so. This militancy makes them do or support terrible and irrational things. I can understand why they are pissed at the same time though.

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