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Invisibleredgreenvines
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an interpretation of the thousand petalled lotus
    #4327530 - 06/23/05 05:02 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In another thread, an aspiring and spiritual member posted the following and attempted to interpret it literally

Quote:

Sinbad said:
...from the Lotus Sutra for you:
Code:

"Good man, if there are living beings in the land who need someone
in the body of a Buddha in order to be saved,
Bodhisattva Perceiver of the World's Sounds immediately manifests himself in a Buddha body
and preaches the Law for them.

If they need someone in a pratyekabuddha's body in order to be saved, immediately he manifests
a pratyekabuddha's body and preaches the Law to them. If the need a voice-hearer to be saved,
immediately he becomes a voice-hearer and preaches the Law for them.

If they need King Brahma to be saved, immediately he becomes King Brahma
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need the lord Shakra to be saved, immediately he becomes the lord Shakra
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need the heavenly being Freedom to be saved, immediately he becomes the heavenly being Freedom
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a great general of heaven to be saved, immediately he becomes a great general of heaven
and preaches the Law for them.

If they need Vaishravana to be saved, immediately he becomes Vaishravana
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a petty king to be saved, immediately he becomes a petty king
and preaches the law for them.

If they need a rich man to be saved, immediately he becomes a rich man
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a householder to be saved, immediately he becomes a householder
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a chief minister to be saved, immediately he becomes a chief minister
and preaches the Law for them.

If they need a Brahman to be saved, immediately he becomes a Brahman
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a monk, a nun, a layman believer, or a laywoman believer
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need the wife of a rich man, of a householder, a chief minister, or a Brahman to be saved,
immediately he becomes those wives
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a young boy or a young girl
and preaches the Law for them.

If they need a heavenly being, a dragon, a yaksha, a gandharva, an asura, a garuda, a kimnara,
a mahoraga, a human or a nonhuman being to be saved, immediately he becomes all of these
and preaches the Law for them.
If they need a vajra-bearing god and preaches the Law for them"



...




This is a beautiful passage about the visionary state that is also referred to as the thousand petalled lotus.

We have been told that all of us already have the Buddha nature within us, and are already realized beings in some way or another.

In the visionary state of the thousand petalled lotus, the Buddha nature (already in all of us) addresses each arising element (petal of the lotus) with compassion, with a sustained helpful glance of wisdom and familiarity. Since it is a visionary state, each petal is sustained for a very long period of time and will become coincident with the preceeding and subsequent petals forming a huge resonant expression of compassion (the lotus).

The passage above references in particular the various realms that the Buddha nature is active in: realms of lords, heavenly realms, realms with petty kings (ego trouble?), rich ones, householders, pedants, spiritual beings, legal beings, children, monsters, gods, dragons, human and non human.

We are full all of these beings, places and associations already, just as we are full of Buddha nature already. they are both real (experientially), and metaphorical as relates to moments in our ordinary lives (- what might a dragon or a child or a king represent?).

Each arising petal or being is acknowledged with a peaceful sharing, an expression of compassion and familiarity, and in this visionary state all blend together - sustained and equal. The same teaching is extended to each arising petal, and it is a teaching of this very vision and of our innate ability to arise above desire and fear to understanding.

the images of alex grey come easily to mind and some of them can be mapped into understanding this visionary state which we all obtain as well.


Edited by redgreenvines (06/23/05 05:03 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: an interpretation of the thousand petalled lotus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327538 - 06/23/05 05:14 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

As far as being all beings are "realized", this just isn't so. While it is true that we all have Buddha nature, very few beings actually recognize this. This is why it is said that sentient beings are ignorant, this doesn't mean uneducated :lol:, it means that we are not recognizing our enlightened Buddha nature and as such we have been wandering since beginning less time in Samara, transmigrating from one suffering state of existence to the next.

Oh red, BTW i checked with one of the members of my Sang ha, who has read both the Chinese and the Sanskrit version of the Lotus Sutra and he says that the extract i posted is quite an accurate English translation.

Nice post redgreenvines!


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 07:43 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: an interpretation of the thousand petalled lotus [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327541 - 06/23/05 05:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

a great translation - sure, but it needs interpretation, and not one for you to use as a model of english usage.

the term "manifest" is not necessary when you discuss any of this, it is pedantic and pertains more to ritualistic repetition than to understanding.

some people use it to make their sentences heavier - it adds "man" and it adds "fest" etc. but does not make things clearer.

see if anyone in your sangha understands the thousand petalled lotus from a visionary direct recconning and you with know with whom you have joined.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: an interpretation of the thousand petalled lotus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327551 - 06/23/05 05:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Why cant i use it to point out what i mean be manifest? Manifest, in the context which i stated in the other thread, means "immediately becomes", thats why i used this Sutra to point out that Buddhas can "Manifest" as human beings, dogs, cats, ants, Gods, kings, whatever is needed, as this sutra quite clearly points out. This extract of the Sutra itself is a very clear teachings on the limitless compassion and wisdom of the potentiality of our Buddha-nature.

Whether you label a word as "pedantic" or not does not really concern me. Anyone reading my post, would most likely, not be confused by the term "manifest", and frankly i don't know why you are going on about it, as if it were blasphemy or something. :lol:

I used the word "manifest" because it was the most appropriate word to use at the time, period. If you need to understand it a little better, you know that google has a "define" function, right? :lol:

I'm actually going to check on this "visionary" emphasis you keep talking about, because as far as i know, this part of the sutra mostly illustrates Buddha-natures limitless skillful means and compassion, for the awakening of sentient beings. Any other explanation, at the moment, to me, seems like pure speculation, however beautifully interesting it might sound. Visionary states (other than tranformation practices found in Tantra) are certainly not the main emphasis of any Buddhist teaching i have read to date. If visions do arise in the practice of meditation, then any budhdist teacher worth there salt, will advise the student not to be distracted by them.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 06:44 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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visionary emphasis on interpretation [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327563 - 06/23/05 05:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

it is the most very essence as it binds all the teaching into one path


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: visionary emphasis on interpretation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327567 - 06/23/05 06:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

As i said "This part of the sutra mostly illustrates Buddha-natures limitless skillful means and compassion, for the awakening of sentient beings."

But as far as adding a "Visionary" element to this teaching, i dont think thats very skilfull, as this is a forum full of psycadelic explorers, we would'nt want people to get a path confused with "visionary" distractions now, would we.  :wink: :lol:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 06:17 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: visionary emphasis on interpretation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327569 - 06/23/05 06:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Oh and as far as this comment by you goes:

"In another thread, an aspiring and spiritual member posted the following and attempted to interpret it literally"

I did not try to interpret the Sutra at all, i dont know where you got that from, i merely used the translated extract to illuistrate a point, what part of that do you find hard to understand?


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327693 - 06/23/05 08:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the skill is in presenting to each type of character that arises the message of a middle way: "to adopt neither fear nor desire; to observe mind".

the context is that a multitude arise and pass away.
this applies both to those within and those without.

this gift or giving to each is the skill, accepting the gift is a unity with giving it and is part of the skill.

this is an interpretation of the sutra you have given and are yet to receive.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327707 - 06/23/05 08:45 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nice one. Thanks for sharing your interpreation. But let me remind you that you cannot over-simplify a Sutra in that fashion. It may be your own interpretation of the meaning, but The Lotus Sutra is a vast store of wisdom, that does not yeild kindly to any generalization or simplification. While I accept the gift of your own personal interpretation of the Sutra, as it may ring true for you in some sense, id much rather continue to read the whole Lotus Sutra (as i am currently doing) and come to my own conclusions about the real meaning of the words written(there are quite alot of them).

P.S The section i quoted is only a very small extract.


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 08:53 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327725 - 06/23/05 09:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

essentially it would yield kindly

it is not an angry parent

do read
maybe
more
slowly.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327733 - 06/23/05 09:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Essentialy you cannot ,with any degree of accuracy, oversimplify a storehouse of pround widsom spoken by the Buddha, as in The Lotus Sutra, into a few sentences of your own personal interpretation. And the fact that you even tried ,reeks of pretentiousness on your part.

Althoug I do not take back my comment about simplification or generalization, I will clarify by saying that in fact i meant that comment as a subtle hint, in relation to your own interpretation (look carefully now).

And im certainly not the one here who needs to have lessons in reading. Maybe you should also consider reading slowly the whole of the Lotus Sutra before comming to any definative conclusion on the meaning. You might learn/unlearn something useful/useless.  :grin:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 09:24 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327747 - 06/23/05 09:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

maybe I am - I like to be sometimes, but the sutra is not a store house (spiritual materialism), it is a collection of stanzas that point to the same thing in different ways for different mentalities to twig on.

and you don't need to get superstitions about it either.

as it is said by many others who do not claim to be redgreenvines, the truths of the buddha are already obvious and already in you. you do not need to fill up on the books but rather to unlearn, and thereby come to understand.

you need to relax, to let go of preconceptions - to not desire them nor to fear them.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4327788 - 06/23/05 09:42 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Why does the words "store house" point to spiritual materialism? The collection of stanzas that point to the same thing, is what i meant by a store house of wisdom. There is so much vast wisdom in The Lotus Sutra that points to the same essential meaning, in so many different ways, that it can certainly be adequately described as a "store house" of wisdom, can it not?

Where was i getting superstitious?

Of course the truths of the Buddha are obvious, that's why i love Buddhism, in all its various representations, because its so vast yet down to earth and simple that its obviously right in front of your face, so you cannot fail to understand and dispel your own ignorance, through skilfull means and method. The teachings for me are like torches of certainty pointing inward to there real meaning. I learned long ago not to mistake the finger pointing for the sky itself. But I'm not going to get all fluffed up with self-importance (because no self actually exists) and state my own personal interpretation of the meaning of various Sutra's because not only is this not at all necessary (they communicate the meaning by themselves) but it would almost certainly be an incorrect view and perversion of the Buddhadharma to do so.

I'm very aware so as to not become a crazy intellectual, filling up on words and garbage. I know and understand that the path requires both intellectual knowledge and practical application for realization. I use particularly clear language because i do not wish to be misunderstood.

You are again displaying a pretentious attitude by telling me that i need to "relax" and let go of my "preconceptions" over an Internet forum, (you may have some assumed preconceptions about my state of being) becuase how indeed can you possibly know how relaxed i am? :lol:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 02:10 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327795 - 06/23/05 09:47 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:dog: :lol: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Icelander]
    #4327797 - 06/23/05 09:49 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, indeed my friend. :lol:  :wink:  :tongue:  :sun:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327801 - 06/23/05 09:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:heartpump: :popcorn: :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Icelander]
    #4328174 - 06/23/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i know little about buddhism
i have an opinion about text: text can be perceived from different angles
text is a kind of matter
a table from different angle is a rectangle, a square, a 3d object, different things interacting with the different person
i like different angles, perspectives
i like hearing the way each person brings their own text
this is just for me personally, it may be no good for someone else since i am out of my league here

:heart:

Quote:


If they need redgreenvines to be saved, immediately he becomes redgreenvines and preaches the Law for them.
If they need Sinbad to be saved, immediately he becomes Sinbad and preaches the Law for them.





--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (06/23/05 01:08 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4328226 - 06/23/05 01:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I like your post. :cool: :grin:

I know little about Buddhism also. I think a lot of Buddhists know a little about Buddhism. :grin: :heart:

My experience with the practioners is that they belong to a broad minded Religion/Philosophy, and that they are completely sure that they don't have very large egos. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (06/23/05 01:23 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Icelander]
    #4328430 - 06/23/05 02:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I like your post. :cool: :grin:

I know little about Buddhism also. I think a lot of Buddhists know a little about Buddhism. :grin: :heart:

My experience with the practioners is that they belong to a broad minded Religion/Philosophy, and that they are completely sure that they don't have very large egos. :grin:




Buddhism is about haveing knowlege of how things really are. You or any other non-buddhist may have real experiencial knowlege of how things really are, and  some Buddhist's may still have yet to discover this. This is just how things are.  :wink: :lol:

Now, in relation to your comment about 'ego', how can you provide a measurement of something that is totally immaterial, conceptual and frankly may not even exist at all in any real sense, for anybody? I think the term 'ego' is used to much to point out faults and negativities in others, whilst ignoring ones own shortfalls and problems. In short, its normally used as a baseless "cop out" term to judge another person by ones own standards and limitations.

Hence, as i posted here earlier.

"If you have transcended ego, then you would not judge me. If you have not transcended ego, then you are in no position to make any judgement." -Swami

This is a great post by Swami.

On another note, are you sure your not just super jealous of us broadminded folk?  :wink:  :grin:


Edited by Sinbad (06/23/05 02:33 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: giving and receiving simultaneously [Re: Sinbad]
    #4328516 - 06/23/05 02:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well... It's all subjective. My experience with my Buddhist pals is that they keep denying something that they display to a fault. :grin:

They are for the most part unwilling to ever appear ignorant or wrong. Spend much time mouthing words of their religion as if they are realized beings. 

I believe in ego structure. But you can call it whatever. I got something going on. I don't claim to be better. I've got lots of shit going on. I'm not ignoring my shortfalls, read some of my posts. It's pretty much a human condition. We all judge each other, some just aren't honest enough to admit it IMO.

I have had years of debate with Christians and now with Buddhists. It's just funny now. I have a lot of respect for some of the Buddhists ideas and some appear to be empty for me. That's how it is for one who works out his own salvation right or wrong.

So get on with your thing. I may post on it from time to time. But really I don't consider it very important. I would be much more interested in your personal experience. Sharing that could be fun and productive for me. You're cool. I know you are a manifestation of all that is. I'm just commenting on your personality structure as I see it. I'm not better. These structures are trivial in the end and will past back into the void. Sail on Sinbad. I knew I was being petty bringing all this up. Just my ego thingy :grin: :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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