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Offlinelonestar2004
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Debunking another Gitmo myth.
    #4326573 - 06/22/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)


Debunking another Gitmo myth
Michelle Malkin (archive)


June 22, 2005 |


Newsweek. Amnesty International. Jimmy Carter. Dick Durbin. The Guantanamo Bay-bashing continues.

In a rant published Tuesday, the Minnesota Star Tribune actually castigated Durbin for "caving in" on his slanderous remarks comparing U.S. treatment of detainees at Gitmo to torture and genocide by Nazis, Soviets and Pol Pot. The paper wrote that Durbin shouldn't have apologized and decried the entire operation as a "hellhole."

But it's not just unhinged liberals who keep piling on.

The "maverick" Sen. John McCain echoed one of the Left's most oft-cited and erroneous complaints about Gitmo on NBC's "Meet The Press" this weekend -- that detainees have been denied trials:

"The weight of evidence has got to be that we've got to adjudicate these people's cases, and . . . if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them. Look, even Adolf Eichmann got a trial." (Can we put a lid on the Nazi analogies already? Crikey. A Knight-Ridder reporter was too smitten to be bothered by his Eichmann-invoking hyperbole: "McCain is emerging as a voice of conscience and nuance on the stay-or-go Guantanamo issue." Nuance?)

GOP Sen. Lindsay Graham, another newly christened "maverick" who appeared on MSNBC's "Hardball" last week, lodged similar allegations about the absence of trials for Gitmo detainees:

"We need a procedure and process that will allow us to determine who an enemy combatant is, interrogate them to make us safer in a humane way, and set up trials for the worst offenders and repatriate those who -- who don't meet the category of a -- of a threat. That, to me, would look good to the world. It would make us safer."

My friend, Judge Andrew Napolitano, made a similar assertion on Fox News's "O'Reilly Factor" last week: "The government is not giving them those trials."

And now, the facts:

Every single detainee currently being held at Guantanamo Bay has received a hearing before a military tribunal. Every one. As a result of those hearings, more than three dozen Gitmo detainees have been released. The hearings, called "Combatant Status Review Tribunals," are held before a board of officers, and permit the detainees to contest the facts on which their classification as "enemy combatants" is based.

Gitmo-bashers attack the Bush administration's failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions. But as legal analysts Lee Casey and Darin Bartram told me, "the status hearings are, in fact, fully comparable to the 'Article V' hearings required by the Geneva Conventions, in situations where those treaties apply, and are also fully consistent with the Supreme Court's 2004 decision in the Hamdi v. Rumsfeld case."

Treating foreign terrorists like American shoplifters -- with full access to civilian lawyers, classified intelligence, and all the attendant rights of a normal jury trial -- is a surefire recipe for another 9/11. That is why the Bush administration fought so hard to erect an alternative tribunal system -- long established in wartime -- in the first place.

The few critics who acknowledge the existence of the tribunals argue they aren't sufficient. They "provided due process in form, but not in substance," as Newsday put it. That view is shared by a Carter-appointed liberal judge, but an earlier decision by a Bush-appointed judge upheld the tribunals. In the end, courts will almost certainly affirm the legality of the Gitmo tribunals, which, as noted, were modeled after the due process standards described in the Hamdi decision.

That ruling, may I remind you, addressed the detention of a U.S. citizen as an enemy combatant. As former Attorney General William Barr noted last week in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, "Obviously, if these procedures are sufficient for American citizens, they are more than enough for foreign detainees."

Do John McCain and the anti-Gitmo gang actually believe otherwise, or are they too clueless to realize the implications of their gulag-Pol Pot-Nazi-Eichmann-hellhole harangues?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20050622.shtml


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Debunking another Gitmo myth. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4326596 - 06/22/05 10:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

. I can remember hearing something about these hearings but had completely forgotten them. And over 200 of these detainees were released by these tribunals.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Debunking another Gitmo myth. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4327740 - 06/23/05 09:17 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

And over a dozen of those released are known to have gone straight back to the battlefield. Roughly half of those have since been killed in battle and their identities positively confirmed.



Phred


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OfflineLSDempire
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I don't like terrorists but killing people is more humane than torture. [Re: Phred]
    #4327840 - 06/23/05 10:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So your saying the people that want these guys tried are the bad guys and the people that support and run these torture chambers are the good guys? If I had been held in a torture chamber and then released I would fight that government as soon as I got out as well, I would just make sure not to be captured alive a second time. I am fine with punishing anyone that supports Saddam or an Islamic state, but if you use torture you are no better than they are, how can you not see that? If these people are as evil as you say they are just kill them. If you were captured by an enemy force and faced being stripped, humiliated, and put in "stress positions" would you still claim that its not torture? Nazi comparisons are relevant because Nazis used the claim that the people they tortured were terrorists as well, history sees things differently.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: I don't like terrorists but killing people is more humane than torture. [Re: LSDempire]
    #4327854 - 06/23/05 10:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

LSDempire writes:

So your saying the people that want these guys tried are the bad guys...


They are enemy combatants being held in wartime, not bank robbers. They don't get tried, they are held for the duration of the conflict unless released through an agreed upon prisoner exchange program with the other side. This has been standard wartime practice from time immemorial.

... and the people that support and run these torture chambers are the good guys?

Guantanamo is not a torture chamber.

If I had been held in a torture chamber...

What you would do if you had been held in a torture chamber is irrelevant, since Guantanamo is not a torture chamber.

... and then released I would fight that government as soon as I got out as well, I would just make sure not to be captured alive a second time.

They got their wish, then. You seem to be saying it's better for the coalition forces to simply line them up against the wall after each battle and shoot them -- which, by the way, the accords of war allow.

I am fine with punishing anyone that supports Saddam or an Islamic state, but if you use torture you are no better than they are, how can you not see that?

The Gitmo detainees have not been tortured. You clearly haven't the foggiest idea what constitutes torture.

If these people are as evil as you say they are just kill them.

It's the height of idiocy not to interrogate captured combatants, so if your suggestion is to never allow a coalition unit to accept the surrender of a combatant, you show your lack of foresight. If your contention is that they should be killed after being interrogated, you show your lack of humanity.

If you were captured by an enemy force and faced being stripped, humiliated, and put in "stress positions" would you still claim that its not torture?

Of course, duh!

Nazi comparisons are relevant because Nazis used the claim that the people they tortured were terrorists as well, history sees things differently.

The Nazis killed the people after they were done interrogating them, so you have more in common with the Nazis than those running Guantanamo.

And -- for the umpteenth time -- what's occurring in Guantanamo isn't torture.


Phred


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