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InvisibleEgo Death
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Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do
    #4324426 - 06/22/05 12:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe anybody should have the right to force others to behave the way they expect.  We would live in a very fucked up world if everybody lived like that!

Society seems to believe that our government is correct is banning substances.  So society agrees that the government should have control over what the people can and can't do.

The belief of security is what society sacrifices our liberty and freedom for.  The men in power simply make the majority believe that they will *protect* them from the ills of this world.  As anybody who has ever needed protection will know, the system fails in its job.  It has become corrupt and thus is now the very source of the worlds ills! I fuckin ronic!

Thats right, its nothing more than a sham.  The very people who have laws on protection rackets are running a huge one themselves!

Life is complex system.  Theres no rules here only - posabilities.  History shows that life could of turned out different - very different and still may change at any given moment.

We could all be living under Hitlers rules, the army would be dosed up on meth to make them raging lunatics!  One man can change the world!  We can make a difference if we try.  If you believe otherwise then you are guaranteed that nothing will change.

So how would can we try and solve this?
I believe that freedom and education is the only real answer.  Let us remove the drug pushers/dealers (and the crimes that go with them) and return all drugs to be available on doctors prescription.  People will eventually realise thats its dumb and not cool to go and get a prescription for an addictive or dangerous drug.  They must see and hear the truth about drugs first though.  We must present them with a more honest and completer picturer of drug use.  People would still do drugs but at least you wouldn't have an epedemic of street dealers causing chaos and the illegal funds used to fund more crime.  In the long term, I bet drug use would at least half in every area.

When you tell someone somethings bad and not to do it, what do they do?  They try it.  Life has consistantly showed us this!

So why hasn't the government realised this?
They probably have.  I think they figured a better and easier way to stay in power.  Maintain the present system, because the more they change, the more freedom that would be allowed is a threat to their maintenance of power!

They may have even gone one step up - they could be utilising the drug market.  It is globally a HUGE source of money.  If they had control over the very peak of the drug market then they could use the black money to continue projects without public awareness.  And we all know the government would never do anything without public awareness :wink:


The ex-chief of police for the UK also believes that progress will only be made when drugs are legalised.


Edited by danoEoboy (06/22/05 01:18 PM)


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ego Death]
    #4324761 - 06/22/05 02:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well put! :thumbup: I have the same opinion that if illegal drugs were legalized, then the majority of prisons would have more room for the Michael Jacksons and murderers of this world. The government could then regulate and tax the drugs like they do with everything else. The extra taxes could help put a dent in the deficit, wait, the government will find a way to blow that money too I'm sure. The problem with implementing this is that if the gorvernment were to give in now, then they would show no justification for what they have been trying to do this whole time. Not to mention that all the folks in the DEA and other government agencies would be jobless. The "war on drugs" gives them something to do. Oh well, I'll have to settle for eating mushrooms and imagining a better world.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ego Death]
    #4325059 - 06/22/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I don't believe anybody should have the right to force others to behave the way they expect.




Isn't this the whole purpose of the law? We have to tell people to behave in ways that protect others and society, such as by not murdering, raping, doing drugs, stealing, etc.

Quote:

Society seems to believe that our government is correct is banning substances. So society agrees that the government should have control over what the people can and can't do.




In civilization, some rules have to be laid down. See above example.

If there were no rules, then people would be able to do whatever they wanted and we'd go back to natural anarchy of murdering other humans.

Quote:

The men in power simply make the majority believe that they will *protect* them from the ills of this world. As anybody who has ever needed protection will know, the system fails in its job.




Not true. The mere fact that we have detectives putting violent criminals behind bars and police capturing thieves and rapists everyday shows that the system is protecting us. Nothing is absolute, but I'd say it's doing a pretty good job compared to what a natural state of humanity would be like.

Quote:

We could all be living under Hitlers rules, the army would be dosed up on meth to make them raging lunatics! One man can change the world!




Which is why our democratic system is so important. We played a major role in stopping Hitler, so obviously our government is protecting us.

Quote:

People will eventually realise thats its dumb and not cool to go and get a prescription for an addictive or dangerous drug.




:rolleyes:

Come on man, that will never happen. Some people will just follow what feels best, which is why we need to protect them from drugs in the first place.

Quote:

People would still do drugs but at least you wouldn't have an epedemic of street dealers causing chaos and the illegal funds used to fund more crime.




Instead we'd have a bunch of jobless addicts wandering the streets and stealing to get their next fix.

Quote:

When you tell someone somethings bad and not to do it, what do they do? They try it. Life has consistantly showed us this!





So why not just legalize stealing and rape? After all, we keep telling people it's bad and people keep doing it, so let's just give up!

The government knows that, no matter how much it tries to protect us, people will always be stealing, raping, and selling and using drugs. But that's why we enact laws and try to have measures in place to stop people from doing these things; we don't just give up because we're not 100% successful. The laws are in place to protect us from a world of legal addicts, all breaking the law to get their next legal fix; to protect us from the depraved nature of humans, who would gladly rape women out of their reach, murder their enemies, and steal whatever they desired.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4325285 - 06/22/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, keep drugs illegal and forcing hundreds of thousands of americans into prisons is the answer!

Hail, Hitl...err i mean Bush!


--------------------
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Sycronica]
    #4325367 - 06/22/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sycronica said:
Yes, keep thievery illegal and forcing hundreds of thousands of americans into prisons is the answer!




This is the equivalent to me to keeping drugs illegal. Your argument for drugs could be applied to any crime, so please explain the difference to me.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineesin
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4325423 - 06/22/05 05:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Isn't this the whole purpose of the law? We have to tell people to behave in ways that protect others and society, such as by not murdering, raping, doing drugs, stealing, etc.




No, the purpose of the Law is to enforce constitutional rules and to keep public order.
It is well established in the legal doctrine (at least in the european) that victimless crimes should not be prosecuted or even considered 'crimes'.

All the behaviours that you put together with 'doing drugs' are behaviours that in one way or another cause harm or limit other people's free will.

Doing drugs has no victim. Harms no one, but eventually the user itself.

Quote:

In civilization, some rules have to be laid down. See above example.

If there were no rules, then people would be able to do whatever they wanted and we'd go back to natural anarchy of murdering other humans.




Please explain why the fact that me being alowed to smoke pot after all the work's done and to relax has to do with 'the anarchy of murdering other humans'

Quote:


Not true. The mere fact that we have detectives putting violent criminals behind bars and police capturing thieves and rapists everyday shows that the system is protecting us. Nothing is absolute, but I'd say it's doing a pretty good job compared to what a natural state of humanity would be like.




You said it well. 'violent crimes'.
Please explain in what way is consuming (currently illegal) psychoactive substances a violent crime.

Yes it is indeed doing a good job. But if this one particular law we're discussing was revoked that wouldn't keep it from doing a good job.

We're not discussing legal systems. We're discussing the drug law in particular.

Quote:

Which is why our democratic system is so important. We played a major role in stopping Hitler, so obviously our government is protecting us.




The state doesn't need to tell you what you are allowed to pharmacologically do to yourself to protect you from totalitarist regimes.

It is the essence of democracy and the rule of law to establish the minimum effective restriction of liberty to protect your self determination and your integrity from others. Not from yourself.

The drug law is clearly not the effective minimum restriction of liberty. ANd its purpose isn't protecting your self determination and integrity from others.

It is however a restriction to your self determination, a principle clearly expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This principle can only be limited with constitutionally suficient fundamentation. I don't see any in the introduction of the Drug Law.

Quote:

Come on man, that will never happen. Some people will just follow what feels best, which is why we need to protect them from drugs in the first place.





As long as they don't harm no one i don't see a reason why we shouldn't allow them to do 'what feels best'.

Quote:

Instead we'd have a bunch of jobless addicts wandering the streets and stealing to get their next fix.




This is subject to discussion.
It is my prediction that if addictive drugs fell out of the black market, were sold at regular market prices with some sort of reasonable tax added to pay for the eventual welfare medical expenses (like it is currently done with tobacco);
If there were no ostracization or prejudice against addicts; they wouldn't be forced to jobless-ness or wandering the streets stealing to get their fix.

There are examples of internet based communities of opiate addicts whose members - because they don't have to turn to black market opiates - lead regular, productive, working lives.

Quote:

So why not just legalize stealing and rape? After all, we keep telling people it's bad and people keep doing it, so let's just give up!

The government knows that, no matter how much it tries to protect us, people will always be stealing, raping, and selling and using drugs. But that's why we enact laws and try to have measures in place to stop people from doing these things; we don't just give up because we're not 100% successful. The laws are in place to protect us from a world of legal addicts, all breaking the law to get their next legal fix; to protect us from the depraved nature of humans, who would gladly rape women out of their reach, murder their enemies, and steal whatever they desired.




See the distinction above between victimless crimes and regular crimes.
Than go read a regular Criminal Law manual, and see what it says about victimless crimes :smirk:
While you're at it, you might as well read a Constitutional Law manual so you can understand what are the exact purposes and objectives of the actual Constitutional States.

About the depraved nature of humans. I prefer not to comment as it serves no point to our current discussion, and is nothing but a subjective, likely religion-based, perception of yours. Which btw i'm sure is not shared by many free thinking people.

A question: Can i assume you are in favour of the prohibition of alcohol, tobacco, coffee/tea/chocolate? Y'know, all being addictive psychoactive substances and whatnot ('legal addicts', 'legal fix', etc...).


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4325524 - 06/22/05 05:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not saying all drugs should be legal. I'm saying building prisons for drug users is NOT the way we should approach this problem.

There is a HUGE difference between stealing and using drugs. (trafficing is another matter, i'm just talking about personal use) Is there anyone who has ever been PHYSICALLY addicted to stealing? I don't believe that. Yet there are many people physically dependant on drugs. They cannot just quit cold turkey when their entire enviornment is riddled with small time dealers on every corner.

So what do we do to these people who are chemically dependant? We toss them in jail for a few months, let them out so they can go right back to the same streets where their drug of choice is readily availible. WOW that helps. But now they have a drug charge on their record so they can't even get a job to help pay for court fees. So they get a probation violation, puts them right back in jail for a little while longer. Then right back out again to the same streets. Revolving door system. Absolutely worthless.

Locking people up for drugs BREEDS more crime. It was people from the higher ups in society that created these hard drugs and it should be the higher ups that bail out the poor who get addicted. They are NOT criminals UNTILL they have been through the system, and hardened. Then they turn to other crime...all cause of some substance some smart guy figured out how to make.

That crack head on the street sure didn't figure out how to turn a coca plant into crack. So why is it his fault he's now addicted to it?

Plain and simple: The war on drugs has FAILED. Regardless of right or wrong, it has FAILED completely. Drugs are not going away and it is time we find a more respectful way to deal with our fellow countrymen who find themselves in these unfortunate situations.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: esin]
    #4325550 - 06/22/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is well established in the legal doctrine (at least in the european) that victimless crimes should not be prosecuted or even considered 'crimes'.




I agree, but drugs do have victims. The families of the drug addicts suffer; society suffers. The pain drugs cause extend to everyone.

Quote:

All the behaviours that you put together with 'doing drugs' are behaviours that in one way or another cause harm or limit other people's free will.




Then let's use a realistic example. Drunk driving is a victimless crime, as all the person is doing is driving after having a bit of alcohol. They're not running into anything, they're not hitting people, they're just driving, harming no one.

So why is it illegal? Evidently, for the same reason drugs are illegal; drunk driving may be a "victimless crime", but it puts other people around the driver at such great danger that it could be considered harming others even before the harm is done. Doing heroin and cocaine is the same situation; the person may just be doing drugs, directly harming no one, but in the end he harms his family by his addiction, he harms society because he can't maintain a steady job and chances are will end up stealing or breaking the law to support his addiction.

Drugs are not victimless; everyone suffers in the end.

Quote:

Please explain why the fact that me being alowed to smoke pot after all the work's done and to relax has to do with 'the anarchy of murdering other humans'




I was responding to the "So society agrees that the government should have control over what the people can and can't do." Drug laws are part of it, however; society needs to draw the limit somewhere, and drugs, like drunk driving, put society at such great risk they need to be outlawed.

Quote:

Yes it is indeed doing a good job. But if this one particular law we're discussing was revoked that wouldn't keep it from doing a good job.




Drug laws have helped our legal system immensely. Drugs are almost always connected to gangs, criminals and smugglers, and as cops look for drugs, more often than not they find other harmful crimes associated with them.

Quote:

As long as they don't harm no one i don't see a reason why we shouldn't allow them to do 'what feels best'.




That's like saying "As long as a drunk driver doesn't hit someone, I see no reason he should be allowed to drive. After all, he's not harming anyone directly." But drugs cause such great harm indirectly, to the addict himself, to his family and to society, and that is itself a reason we shouldn't allow people to do drugs.

Quote:

If there were no ostracization or prejudice against addicts; they wouldn't be forced to jobless-ness or wandering the streets stealing to get their fix.




The entire reason we ostracize addicts is because they force themselves to do such harm. They become so obsessed with addictive harmful drugs that they spend their money on narcotics instead of a home and food, and eventually they burden society. This is ignoring the immense harm they do to themselves.

Drug addicts aren't the innocent victims you portray them to be. They are viewed the way they are from experience as, time and time again, they failed society.

Quote:

A question: Can i assume you are in favour of the prohibition of alcohol, tobacco, coffee/tea/chocolate?




I put faith in the government to decide when drugs are harmful to the extent that they must be outlawed. But right now two of the drugs you mentioned, alcohol and tobacco, are causing society such great harm, why would you want to add a plethora of drugs even worse to the health of the addict and society to your local town? Two wrongs don't make a right, and the experiences with alcohol and tobacco show they are definite wrongs to everybody.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4325743 - 06/22/05 06:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I agree, but drugs do have victims. The families of the drug addicts suffer; society suffers. The pain drugs cause extend to everyone.
.
.
Drugs are almost always connected to gangs, criminals and smugglers, and as cops look for drugs, more often than not they find other harmful crimes associated with them.
.
.
The entire reason we ostracize addicts is because they force themselves to do such harm. They become so obsessed with addictive harmful drugs that they spend their money on narcotics instead of a home and food, and eventually they burden society.
.
.
Drug addicts aren't the innocent victims you portray them to be. They are viewed the way they are from experience as, time and time again, they failed society.
.
.
Doing heroin and cocaine is the same situation; the person may just be doing drugs, directly harming no one, but in the end he harms his family by his addiction, he harms society because he can't maintain a steady job and chances are will end up stealing or breaking the law to support his addiction.





You are being very prejudiced in your views my friend. You assume that all drug users are "dangerous addicts".


This is far from the truth.


Most drug users are not addicts. Most are casual users who's drug use harms no one.


The "dangerous addicts" you speak of are addicted to a purified/man-made drug (heroin, cocaine, meth, PCP...) I will concede that some drugs are harmful and should not be legalized.


I also believe that we can find a middle road to walk.

Please read this post about the middle ground. and tell me your opinion.


Quote:

Then let's use a realistic example. Drunk driving is a victimless crime, as all the person is doing is driving after having a bit of alcohol. They're not running into anything, they're not hitting people, they're just driving, harming no one.





With the way our system is now I could be "legally drunk" but still be able to pass the coordination test.
As long as someone is not driving dangerously, there is no reason to give them a ticket, even if they have been drinking.

Quote:

I put faith in the government to decide when drugs are harmful to the extent that they must be outlawed. But right now two of the drugs you mentioned, alcohol and tobacco, are causing society such great harm, why would you want to add a plethora of drugs even worse to the health of the addict and society to your local town?





Would you be willing to swap alcohol and tobacco with magic mushrooms and marijuana.?

The last two drugs are much safer than the first two.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4331589 - 06/24/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Sycronica said:
Yes, keep thievery illegal and forcing hundreds of thousands of americans into prisons is the answer!




This is the equivalent to me to keeping drugs illegal. Your argument for drugs could be applied to any crime, so please explain the difference to me.




You like to compare drug use to rape, murder, and thievery. You forget to mention that drug users are not harming others. If they do harm other people, punish them for harming others, not for harming themselves.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ravus]
    #4331596 - 06/24/05 10:33 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Sycronica said:
Yes, keep thievery illegal and forcing hundreds of thousands of americans into prisons is the answer!




This is the equivalent to me to keeping jewery illegal. Your argument for jews could be applied to any crime, so please explain the difference to me.




:wink:


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: LSDempire]
    #4331922 - 06/24/05 12:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

hahahahaha good one  :lol:

I've been saying that for years, all they have done is cross out "jew" and write in "drug users".


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: LSDempire]
    #4331960 - 06/24/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You like to compare drug use to rape, murder, and thievery. You forget to mention that drug users are not harming others. If they do harm other people, punish them for harming others, not for harming themselves.




If you pay money to criminals for your drugs you are harming society.
If you have to get rushed to the ER with an OD you are harming society.
If your drug isnt so harmless after all, you're harming society.
If you call in sick from the job for having been high, you're harming society.
If you bring more drugs into this world by making or growing them, you are harming society.

Thats just five harms off the top of my head.
Its with heroin like with clocks: if it aint broken - dont fix it.



Note: This is not my opinion, I'm delivering a counterpoint taking on the role of an anti-drug crusader. Anti people would be uncomfortable on our site so I'll offer the voice of opposition. Again: this is not my opinion.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Asante]
    #4332696 - 06/24/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
If you pay money to criminals for your drugs you are harming society.




Only because drugs have gone "underground".
Does buying cigarettes or alcohol have a criminal intent.....no.

Buying cigarettes or alcohol is JUST AS BAD (if not worse) for society as someone using marijuana or mushrooms.

Quote:

If you have to get rushed to the ER with an OD you are harming society.




If you get rushed to the ER from alcohol poisoning/liver failure.....the same "harm" is done to society......which is minimal.

Quote:

If you call in sick from the job for having been high, you're harming society.




I have NEVER seen a person miss work due to marijuana.......I have seen TONS of people not show up to work hung over from alcohol.

Which is the greater evil?

Quote:

If you bring more drugs into this world by making or growing them, you are harming society.




There is no harm done to anyone when they grow and consume their own plants.

Quote:

Thats just five harms off the top of my head.




That was a mis-quote you should have said "Thats just five myths off the top of my head." :rolleyes:

Quote:

Its with heroin like with clocks: if it aint broken - dont fix it.




:rotfl:

How can you say that the system is "fixed" when my 12 year old niece can get marijuana, crack-cocaine or heroin EASIER than she can a cigarette or beer.

That isnt fixed IMO......that is a huge problem that needs to be fixed.


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Offlinemoosehead
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ego Death]
    #4333770 - 06/24/05 09:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I agree that no one has the right to tell another human what they can and cannot do to their own body. Unless that body happens to contain another human, but I dont want to get into that.

So, my opinion is that ALL drugs should be legal. This means meth and the smokeable form of coke, crack.

I dont really think use among these drugs would change all that much due to the change in their legal stature. The fact that hard drugs may become more available, and who the fuck knows what would happen, would probably bump usage up a bit. Drug use among soft drugs would probably increase dramaticly at first, but it would level off. These are complete assumptions based on nothing at all.

I also think that over time society would get used to the fact that drugs are legal. With in a year if not sooner, there would be beer styled adds promoting the use of god knows what. It is then that drug use would begin to really rise.

but ya know, if my neighbor wants to shoot dope, i really dont care. just dont throw the needle over the fence when you're done =]


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: moosehead]
    #4334240 - 06/25/05 12:18 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think they should be allowed to advertise anything really.  Certainly not mind altering addictive substances!

All an advert is designed to do is to misintpret a product so that some corperate fat cat can get another few bucks :frown:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: Ego Death]
    #4334359 - 06/25/05 12:49 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think they should be allowed to advertise anything really. Certainly not mind altering addictive substances!


I agree.

Advertising for all drugs (recrational and medicinal) should be illegal.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: niteowl]
    #4334452 - 06/25/05 01:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I don't think they should be allowed to advertise anything really. Certainly not mind altering addictive substances!


I agree.

Advertising for all drugs (recrational and medicinal) should be illegal.




The Libertarian Shadow Division, the Libertarian Shadow Cabinet, and the Libertarian Party, do not agree. Advertising for all drugs should be legal, free speach should be legal.


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Offlinemoosehead
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: LSDempire]
    #4334862 - 06/25/05 03:39 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

An add telling me that I should ask my doctor about Zuplexa is complete bullshit. My doctor can tell me about said drug, and if its right for me.

In my post earlier I said how drug use would increase once adversements began to promote their use. I said this because I feel it would be inevitable, but I think its sick and wrong to advertise such products.

Maybe Im a nazi taping the pharms mouth shut. oh well.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Nobody has the right to tell another human being what to do [Re: moosehead]
    #4335352 - 06/25/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

An add telling me that I should ask my doctor about Zuplexa is complete bullshit. My doctor can tell me about said drug, and if its right for me.


I agree. There is no need for a prescription drug to be advertised on TV. Most of the drugs I see advertised don't tell you what the drug is for.....how stupid is that?

If I need a drug then my Dr. should be the one telling me I need it not some Pharm. Company.

Advertising drugs serves no purpose.


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