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InvisibleSinbad
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Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought *DELETED*
    #4320454 - 06/21/05 01:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Sinbad

Reason for deletion: various



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Offlinetrouted
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4320481 - 06/21/05 01:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"The Buddhist view puts forth that consciousness or mind, in the process of moving from one life to the next, can exist independantly of a physical basis."

You can't frame your question accurately with this assumption as it is too fundamental to your question and too fundamental a misunderstanding of Buddhism.

Second, keep in mind that a big part of Buddhist teaching is the idea of the "Middle Way".  During his days of asceticism, the Buddha realized that you need to sustain your body to be able to properly meditate.

Marinate on that one for a while... :smile:

peace
Consciousness/mind does not move independently from one life to the next.  Any one thing that remains constant through rebirths would indicate an abiding Self, which Buddhism refutes.  Reincarnation, in Buddhist thought, takes place via individual karmic tendencies, not one Self.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: trouted]
    #4320506 - 06/21/05 01:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

heredity permits that stupid people can be born of smart parents and vice versa.

(there is not a single "smart gene" though some have speculated a correlation between high cholesterol and intelligence, this will take a while to prove.)

In buddhism nama and rupa are separated for analysis only -
no-separation is fundamental, since rupa, body or form, is the basis of all except the formless. Mind derives from form, but aspires to emptiness or formlessness.

welcome back


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: trouted]
    #4320514 - 06/21/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I understand that sustaining the body is necessary for meditation, but what exactly does that have to do with this topic?

Consciousness is described in Buddhism as an effect arising through the karmic seeds of past activities. Consciousness is described as the third link in the series of 12 links of dependent origination, in Buddhist psychology/philosophy. Buddhist speak of "rebirth" rather then "reincarnation" to avoid giving a false impression that some "entity" enters the "body" to be reborn. Rather the body is created by a karmic impetus from the past.

The consciousness that is reborn can no more be isolated as a "thing" than can a fire spreading from tree to tree. The fire does not exist without heat, air and fuel; ordinary consciousness is a result of causes and conditions that have been created by ignorant activity in past lives. Thus we enter the present life in accord with previous thoughts and deeds.

The mental seeds sown by past karma, working through the present consciousness, give rise to name and form , that is, the psycophysical organism, the spiritual and physical elements that constitute personality. This is represented as the forth link of dependent origination.

As you can see within the 12 links of dependent orignination, concioussness is manifest before physical matter is formed, therefore, as such, it arsies, totally independant of any physical body. Hence why i said:

"The Buddhist view puts forth that consciousness or mind, in the process of moving from one life to the next, can exist independantly of a physical basis."

Do you now understand more clearly?


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Edited by Sinbad (06/22/05 05:15 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4320606 - 06/21/05 02:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
no-separation is fundamental, since rupa, body or form, is the basis of all except the formless.Mind derives from form, but aspires to emptiness or formlessness.

welcome back




No you misunderstand, rupa manifest out of the mind, so the mind is the basis of all, not its manifestation, the formless is the basis for all forms, as the formless has the infinite potentiality for manifesting any form, but all forms are still inherently formless.

Nama, is the label of solidity and permanence that we project onto the formless, which creates the illusion of rupa. Im not attempting to separate the form, from the formless. In reality there is no separation. But it is also true, that name and form are not separate as they both arise in union with each other.(nama = name, rupa = form)

Mind does not derive from form, form arises out of causes within the mind. Thank you for the welcome.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/22/05 06:40 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4320625 - 06/21/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

sure


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4323691 - 06/22/05 05:16 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So, does anyone here still consider concioussness as some "thing" totally depend upon physical form?

Come on, i at least thought Swami would give this one a bash.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/22/05 06:09 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4323980 - 06/22/05 10:19 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

how do you know you are confronted with consciousness?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4324009 - 06/22/05 10:34 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What? Confronted? Are you fully concious of what you just asked? :lol:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324040 - 06/22/05 10:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well yes it's funny, but you seem to be suggesting that you have a "description" of something called consciousness, or you wish to point it out, or allude to something about it, and I am attempting to get on the same page with you.

so can we both point towards a thing called consciousness and agree that it is the same thing - however elusive?

if so would you suggest what direction that is?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4324099 - 06/22/05 11:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
well yes it's funny, but you seem to be suggesting that you have a "description" of something called consciousness, or you wish to point it out, or allude to something about it, and I am attempting to get on the same page with you.

so can we both point towards a thing called consciousness and agree that it is the same thing - however elusive?

if so would you suggest what direction that is?




You need to read more carefully.

"The consciousness that is reborn can no more be isolated as a "thing" than can a fire spreading from tree to tree. The fire does not exist without heat, air and fuel; ordinary consciousness is a result of causes and conditions that have been created by ignorant activity in past lives. Thus we enter the present life in accord with previous thoughts and deeds."


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324109 - 06/22/05 11:18 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

While you were away, Swami named is successor, it's Diploid, he is in charge now, Swami is still the master, but he works in the shadows now.
If you want to be bashed, ask Diploid, and if some issue gets a bit complicated, it will be taken to the Swami (like the supreme court)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4324114 - 06/22/05 11:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent! Thanks for the tip. Is Swami going to retire soon and leave his work to Dipliod when he has been fully trained?  :grin:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324123 - 06/22/05 11:25 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so you think of it as a thing that is reborn
and which exists as a result of ignorance etc. and other actions.

and you suggest that there is another mode of consciousness that is not reborn.

then you say we enter a life thusly, probably by being reborn.

strongly suggesting that we should not have done so if we were less ignorant, basically adding wisdom as a likely property of consciousness as well as the optional and opposite property of re-birthability.

did you want this thing (namely 'we' which somehow re-birthed here) with properties to be considered not a thing, i.e. do you want to make a game out of it?

or did you want to point something out which is not a game of "look but do not see", or maybe "use words but don't".


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4324138 - 06/22/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so you think of it as a thing that is reborn
and which exists as a result of ignorance etc. and other actions.

Read more carefully. "The consciousness that is reborn can no more be isolated as a "thing" than can a fire spreading from tree to tree."

and you suggest that there is another mode of consciousness that is not reborn.

Where did i suggest such a thing!?


then you say we enter a life thusly, probably by being reborn.

Yes. We get reborn. But not thusly :lol:

strongly suggesting that we should not have done so if we were less ignorant, basically adding wisdom as a likely property of consciousness as well as the optional and opposite property of re-birthability.

If we knew the true nature of reality, then we would not be reborn. Wisdom is the opposite of ignorance, it is recognizing the true nature of reality, as it is. Ignorance keeps us reinvesting in the karmic bank of samsara. But this is not to say that we would not purposely manifest a physical body within samsara in order to teach other beings the way out of the cycle of suffering. Once you have realized fully, the nature of reality, you have the power to manifest like that.

did you want this thing (namely 'we' which somehow re-birthed here) with properties to be considered not a thing, i.e. do you want to make a game out of it?

What? Can you explain this more clearly?

or did you want to point something out which is not a game of "look but do not see", or maybe "use words but don't".

You've really lost me now. What are you talking about???




--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (06/22/05 11:43 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324214 - 06/22/05 12:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what does manifest mean to you?

you use this verb to grant whatever you want to be true. (like magical passes?)

re: the consciousness that is reborn - is there a consciousnes that is not reborn?


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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324402 - 06/22/05 12:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
So lets discuss. What is your view on this matter? Do you still belive that a human beings concioussness is purely dependant upon physical matter? Or does your understanding of conciousness go a little deeper than that?




The way I see it, a human being's consciousness is highly dependent on being human.

It is interesting to think that consciousness comes from somewheres else, or goes somewheres else after the physical life, but we really don't know for sure, do we?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Grav]
    #4324476 - 06/22/05 01:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I remember going to sleep - I remember some dreams - I remember getting up - between there were gaps - times of no me.

I perceive myself as a strong experiential smear of mentation and sensation happenning right now as I type this with many recent impressions mixing with memories and this skillful keyboarding too.

is that experiential smear of mentation and sensation consciousness in your terms?

it is in my terms, and it is not necessarily continuous, and it is definitely dependent on body.

something else may also exist related to consciousness that I cannot fathom so I don't make any claims about these unfathomable issues.

otherwise I am aware that in buddhism the issue of consciousness as a series of citta (mind moments) is allegoricized into a big story of rebirth and karma, but only the students of abhidhamma get into that with direct experience, the lay-public and the uninitiated carry on with hindu style conceptualization about magical rebirth and non-attainable spiritual quests.

In abhidhamma each incarnation amounts to about 3 seconds long at most for a full formation (with ego) and only around 1/6th of a second per individual citta (unit of mentation &/or sensation). it was a very advanced analysis for its day.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4324478 - 06/22/05 01:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Its a little off topic, but ill answer your question anyways.

In the context of the post above, giving the example of a Buddha "manifesting" in human form,(this is what i assume you are refering to by the question) i mean taking the form of an ordinary human being, in order to communicate with human beings, its really quite simple. Whatever is needed to liberate, out of great compassion for sentient beings, he will "manifest" as.

Here is an example from the Lotus Sutra for you:

"Good man, if there are living beings in the land who need someone in the body of a Buddha in order to be saved, Bodhisattva Perceiver of the World's Sounds immediately manifests himself in a Buddha body and preaches the Law for them. If they need someone in a pratyekabuddha's body in order to be saved, immediately he manifests a pratyekabuddha's body and preaches the Law to them. If the need a voice-hearer to be saved, immediately he becomes a voice-hearer and preaches the Law for them. If they need King Brahma to be saved, immediately he becomes King Brahma and preaches the Law for them. If they need the lord Shakra to be saved, immediately he becomes the lord Shakra and preaches the Law for them. If they need the heavenly beiang Freedom to be saved, immediately he becomes the heavenly being Freedom and preaches the Law for them. If they need a great general of heaven to be saved, immediately he becomes a great general of heaven and preaches the Law for them. If they need Vaishravana to be saved, immediately he becomes Vaishravana and preaches the Law for them. If they need a petty king to be saved, immediately he becomes a petty king and preaches the law for them.

If they need a rich man to be saved, immediately he becomes a rich man and preaches the Law for them. If they need a householder to be saved, immediately he becomes a householder and preaches the Law for them. If they need a chief minister to be saved, immediately he becomes a chief minister and preaches the Law for them. If they need a Brahman to be saved, immediately he becomes a Brahman and preaches the Law for them. If they need a monk, a nun, a layman believer, or a laywoman believer and preaches the Law for them. If they need the wife of a rich man, of a householder, a chief minister, or a Brahman to be saved, immediately he becomes those wives and preaches the Law for them. If they need a young boy or a young girl and preaches the Law for them. If they need a heavenly being, a dragon, a yaksha, a gandharva, an asura, a garuda, a kimnara, a mahoraga, a human or a nonhuman being to be saved, immediately he becomes all of these and preaches the Law for them. If they need a vajra-bearing god and preaches the Law for them"


Within the context of ordinary conditioned sentient beings, what i mean by "Manifest" is "fruition of karmic causes".


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Material Theory, Living Organisms & Buddhist Thought [Re: Sinbad]
    #4324486 - 06/22/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so you are emulating bad english translation?


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