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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO
    #4319678 - 06/21/05 06:03 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ever since Copernicus suggested that the earth revolves around the sun there has been a huge war of words between science and religion. On both sides you have extremists who either refuse to acknowledge the hard evidence of things like evolution, or scientists who ardently refuse to acknowledge that religion has anything useful to say about the world and the universe. It is quite silly really I think.

Take Christianity for example, the bible was written over a period of hundreds of years by various people, and the physical descriptions it gives of the universe and its origins are derived from what was the current concencus at that time built by the greeks mainly, so it somewhat incorporated the scientific concencus from that time period. Now things have changed, science has advanced and greatly enchanced our understanding of the physical nature of the world and the universe and life, but that doesn't threaten religion/spirituality one bit really. It is only the technical details where science and 'religion' differ really, like the position of the earths orbit, the big bang, the theory of evolution, they do not in any way shape or form disprove the notion of a higher entity. The most advanced, complete theory of the physical universe will never be able to explain why the universe exists in the first space, even if that theory unites all force, matter and energy, and links them to the fabric of space-time, it still will not get to the 'first cause' as they say. For example, what started the big bang? Under superstring theory there is a scenario where a collision of multidimensional 'membranes' collide to start off the big bang, but it is still an infinite regress, where did these membranes come from then?

Evolution as well, the fact that it explains how the complexity and diversity of life came into being without divine interference still doesn't get us much closer to understanding exactly what life and consciousness really is.
The big bang and theory of evolution simply update our understanding of the physical universe and provide the 'how',but they cannot tackle the 'why'. Science at its heart works to understand the beauty and marvel of the universe, paying a tribute to god really, the Koran says that scientific endeavour is one way of getting closer to god, how is trying to understand gods creation a sacrilige? If anything the more we understand about the universe the more we know that we must change our ways and stop destroying the world we have.

I think both sides should stop oversimplifying the situation. With religion one always get the impression that god is a conscious entity which created everything, especially when physical representations of god are given as some big powerful bearded chap people take it literally, and that is a very dangerous thing as it constricts god by giving not only giving it physical form, but also human form. This is very arrogant, it is this trend to restrict god that causes fundamentalism as we know it today, the bible-bashers who refuse to acknowledge evolution and the big bang, and treat the science of greek mathematicians as divine fact.
Science as well is getting corrupted and deviated, it is now used as a tool with which to carry out our will, but it is hardly used to influence our will in the first place. Einsteins relativity for example, shows that matter and energy are interchangable, like currency, and what is the first thing humanity does with this amazing leap of understanding? Create a device of unimaginable destruction (the atomic bomb).
Nobody looks to the geniuses like Einstein to see what we should do with this understanding, to be able to actually understand these mind boggling theories brings one back to an innocent, naive, childlike viewpoint where everything becomes possible, where you just cannot do anything but sit back and marvel and pay tribute to the wonder of the universe. I believe this feeling is very spiritual, and is why the Koran said that understanding the universe is getting closer to god.

If both sides were to just stand back, take the hurdle of realising the baseless assumptions they have made and embrace the core principles of both sides, then there is no limit to how much good they can do to the fractured world and society we live in today.


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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein


Edited by The_Walrus (06/21/05 01:04 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4319684 - 06/21/05 06:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Dood, use paragraphs. Please. Reading that just now hurt my eyes!  :crazyeyes:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: Diploid]
    #4319700 - 06/21/05 06:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You are getting older. Time for bi-focals.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: Swami]
    #4319747 - 06/21/05 08:09 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

a religious argument about fact relates to control which amounts to the right to collect money.
if a religious argument is wrong they lose supporters, so they fight bitterly.

a scientific argument can be appreciated without that control, but somebody with control (politico-religious) has to collect the money for the scientists. It gets compromised when the scientist gets hungry, and then everything turns to bitter arguments for support.

that sounds like serious politics and serious politics leads to war, and bad agreements about the facts.

so...


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InvisibleFooManM
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Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4319826 - 06/21/05 09:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Need to sober up before reading this one!


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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: Diploid]
    #4320388 - 06/21/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Dood, use paragraphs. Please. Reading that just now hurt my eyes!  :crazyeyes:




Sorry about that, I do get a bit lost in myself when rambling so my grammar suffers somewhat, is the correction I made any better?

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a religious argument about fact relates to control which amounts to the right to collect money.
if a religious argument is wrong they lose supporters, so they fight bitterly.

a scientific argument can be appreciated without that control, but somebody with control (politico-religious) has to collect the money for the scientists. It gets compromised when the scientist gets hungry, and then everything turns to bitter arguments for support.

that sounds like serious politics and serious politics leads to war, and bad agreements about the facts.

so...




As far as I understand it you are saying that on the religious part lack of compromise on issues like evolution, despite physical facts to the contrary is because they will lose their control on society. I guess that is true to a degree, it does show how fundamentalism is a symptom of the corruption of a religion. Science as well is becoming tainted by money and politics, the biosciences are the best example, as with nutrition and climate change in the US. But the truth will always ultimately have the upper hand really, with climate change there is a near universal concencus that we are affecting the climate of the planet, despite much flawed studies funded by the Bush admin. The reason is that they are clearly flawed and ignore major unrefutable pieces of evidence which cannot be explained by various theories that the change in sunspot patterns is the only cause of climate change.
Religion is a bit of a different matter though, scientists have a global community which supports each other and communicate with each other. I cannot see much being done here with religion, just the opposite really, especially with regards to Christianity and Islam. But it is not only possible, but mandatory that there is more understanding on both sides, they both believe in the same god and the same important figures, the only issue where they deviate is in the role of Jesus Christ. I saw this interesting programme called 'sons of Abraham' which basically charted the relations between the three abrahamic religions. Up until the crusades Muslims, Jews and Christians lived quite peacefully. There are even some cities in the middle-east where the three mixed, where Muslims hired christian constructors to build a mosque, and gave them freedom to add their own input on the design, making for an interesting combination of Islamic and Christian architectural design.
I think the first step to unite science and religion is to first unite religion. There are some denominations of christianity which, for example, believe that a good Hindu born in India, for example, can go to heaven, they accept that different faiths are simply 'feeling different parts of the elephant', I am sure that those with true faith and spirituality believe the same.


--------------------
'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein


Edited by The_Walrus (06/21/05 01:27 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4320395 - 06/21/05 01:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ah, thank you!  :heart:

[removes bi-focals]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Science vs. religion: quite silly IMO [Re: The_Walrus] * 1
    #4321652 - 06/21/05 07:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

scientists who ardently refuse to acknowledge that religion has anything useful to say about the world and the universe

Theses characters seem to exist more in the imagination of the anti-science crowd than in reality.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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