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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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selfishness, creativity, and copyright
    #4318442 - 06/20/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If someone creates a work of art, what right do they have to claim "ownership" of it? Why do roles of creator and owner always go together? It's not possible for thoughts to be owned by anyone, so why do we put up with this nonsense? How do copyrights and patents benefit humanity? They don't serve any purpose aside from promoting selfishness and greed.

EDIT: Removed second part. That's probably a different topic entirely...


Edited by moog (06/20/05 09:54 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4318516 - 06/20/05 10:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"They don't serve any purpose aside from promoting selfishness and greed."

Well, you answered your own question.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4318587 - 06/20/05 10:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Spend two years researching and writing a book, then get back to me.  :thumbdown:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4318601 - 06/20/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Copyrights encourage the creation of new inventions and artworks, because then under a capitalistic system the person can benefit themself through non-traditional methods. If you didn't have copyrights on your inventions and works of art, what incentive do you have for making them?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Ravus]
    #4318689 - 06/20/05 11:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"If you didn't have copyrights on your inventions and works of art, what incentive do you have for making them? "

How about, for creativity's sake, for the sake of accomplishment, and to share them with other people? I don't need money or recognition as an incentive to build or create something. My incentive is the feeling I'll have once it's done, knowing I made something that another human being may get enjoyment or satisfaction from. It makes me wonder how many people with creative talents have decided not to use them just because they can't make money off it, either because they're not "good enough" or because there's no market for their creations.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4318697 - 06/20/05 11:10 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what a load of shit!

as to
Quote:

If someone creates a work of art, what right do they have to claim "ownership" of it?




art is physical. Your claim borders on denying ownership, period.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Ravus]
    #4318707 - 06/20/05 11:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If you didn't have copyrights on your inventions and works of art, what incentive do you have for making them?





As we all know, prior to copyrights there were no inventions or works of art.

People who wright good books etc. should be compensated for their efforts, and copyrighs are our present system of insuring that they get compensated.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4318717 - 06/20/05 11:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

For creativity's sake indeed, but what happens when someone takes your book and profits off it because there's no more copyrights? Or when you show your invention to someone who mass produces it and becomes rich, quickly forgetting you?

Copyrights are there to ensure that, in the modern capitalistic world, we are compensated for our creations. Once you get rid of all personal possessions, then copyrights can go, but not before.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Ravus]
    #4318759 - 06/20/05 11:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not against people making money off of art or inventions. People can still profit from art and inventions in the absence of copyrights and patents. The difference is, anyone can make money from it, rather than just one person or (more commonly...) one publisher, record label, or corporation. Lack of copyrights would in fact be more free-market oriented, as one entity doesn't hold monopoly over an idea, and thus more entities are able to profit from it, in the natural-selection arena of competing business.


"Once you get rid of all personal possessions, then copyrights can go, but not before. "

The concept of personal possessions existed for thousands of years before copyrights. Why do you see them as interconnected?


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: vampirism]
    #4318768 - 06/20/05 11:32 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"art is physical. Your claim borders on denying ownership, period."

What's physical about a digital image created on a computer? The electrons used to propogate it? What about the physicality of msuic? Are you talking about the disruptions in the air by the soundwaves?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4319670 - 06/21/05 05:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

as a creative person
without some financial arrangements
it is very hard to make a living unless
some aspect of copyright is assumed.

the amount of copyright changes with arrangements.
some arrangements end up in courts as they are untenable.
others go to court because the aggreements have been breeched.

good luck to you in getting protection and in settling
if you have stepped on someones toes.

its all about respecting boundaries.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4319719 - 06/21/05 07:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> If someone creates a work of art, what right do they have to claim "ownership" of it?

If I build a house, do I have "ownership" of the home? If I paint a picture, do I have ownership of the pictuer that I painted? If I pick up a rock off the street, do I have ownership of the rock? What is ownership? Do I still own something after I die?

> Why do roles of creator and owner always go together?

Perhaps because of the time and effort that I gave to create? Why should all my work be given away for free to anybody that wants it? I don't see the farmers giving away free food, or the mechanics fixing cars for free...

> It's not possible for thoughts to be owned by anyone

It isn't? My thoughts are owned by me, and nobody else. My thoughts are the only thing that I actually own.

> so why do we put up with this nonsense?

What nonsense? Show me how you own my thoughts...

> How do copyrights and patents benefit humanity?

Depends upon what you mean by humanity. Are we talking the "garden of eden" sort of humanity where everybody is nice and loves everybody else, or are we talking the real world humanity of living in modern society? Of course there is no place for patents, etc, in the garden of eden scenario... but in real life, without them, most people wouldn't bother to invent... and those that did wouldn't share with others... so yes, copyrights and patents both benefit humanity.

> They don't serve any purpose aside from promoting selfishness and greed.

When was the last time you took a bum off the street to lunch with you... it is very easy to point out other people's selfishness and greed, but most difficult to see it when looking in the mirror.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4319726 - 06/21/05 07:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How do copyrights and patents benefit humanity?




I'll name just one...

1. We wouldn't have any modern medicine without copyrights and patents.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4319935 - 06/21/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

This is a problem as I see it. It's great that artists (and inventors) are using their talents to make money. More power to them. However, there's this notion of "deserving" that comes with that, err, profession. Just because someone made something, they don't necessarily deserve recognition (ego-stroking) or monetary compensation. The problem is the nature of the business. The copyright exists purely to ensure the money-making mechanism. I don't mean to be a dick, but if an artist couldn't make money off their work without copyrights, they should probably consider a different way to make a living and do their art on the side.

Look, I like to consider myself an artist/inventor. I write music, I do graphic design, and I occasionally code software. Never would I be offended if someone "stole" my ideas or work, even to use for profit. I would be flattered.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4319968 - 06/21/05 10:57 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I don't mean to be a dick, but if an artist couldn't make money off their work without copyrights, they should probably consider a different way to make a living and do their art on the side.

Sure, so now the artist spends his creative effort working at Wal-Mart to pay the bills instead of making art. Does this make sense?  :thumbdown:

Funny how it's always people who've never published anything of consequence that take this 'everything should be free' attitude.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (06/21/05 11:03 AM)


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Seuss]
    #4319997 - 06/21/05 11:09 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"If I build a house, do I have "ownership" of the home? If I paint a picture, do I have ownership of the pictuer that I painted? If I pick up a rock off the street, do I have ownership of the rock? What is ownership? Do I still own something after I die?"

Seuss, I'm talking about non-physical concepts. Of course you can own physical things that you build or find.

"I don't see the farmers giving away free food, or the mechanics fixing cars for free..."

Remember, I'm not talking about physical possessions here, I'm talking about ideas/concepts. Take for instance, current law on commercial software. When you buy a game for your PC or Xbox or whatever, you don't actually "own" the game. You own a CD/DVD with a copy of the software, for your own private use (or whatever the license terms are). The same goes for a music CD you buy. The CD is yours. It's a physical possession that belongs to you. But the music on the disc is not yours. According to law, the music/software still belongs to the person with the copyright ownership. The music is an abstract concept. The CD is not. That's the difference.

"My thoughts are owned by me, and nobody else. My thoughts are the only thing that I actually own."

Try telling that to a telepath. But seriously, there's actually already-existing technology that can roughly translate your thoughts. What will happen when this type of thing becomes more refined? Will people automatically be granted copyrights on their thoughts, or will they be public domain?

"Are we talking the "garden of eden" sort of humanity where everybody is nice and loves everybody else, or are we talking the real world humanity of living in modern society?"

Neither, because both of these conjure up stereotypes in people's minds. Let's talk about practicality. So one benefit is that it motivates inventors. In the absence of patents, there may be fewer things invented. But, necessity is the mother of invention, and people won't stop inventing things that are needed. Of course, once a thing is invented, money will be made somewhere regardless of who the money goes to.

"When was the last time you took a bum off the street to lunch with you... "

Last week. How about you?


To those who oppose my ideas, let me ask you: what "right" don't you have to use someone's created ideas for whatever purpose?


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Diploid]
    #4320001 - 06/21/05 11:11 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No one said life is fair...


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4320036 - 06/21/05 11:32 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> Last week. How about you?

Yesterday. It is amazing what can be learned from people living on the street. Some (if not most) are crazy, but there are gems of truth hidden in the insanity.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: moog]
    #4320083 - 06/21/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No one said life is fair...

That's the reason we have copyright laws and anti-theft laws too, for that matter: to make life a little more fair where possible.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: selfishness, creativity, and copyright [Re: Diploid]
    #4320204 - 06/21/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

But are copyright laws fair?

If I infringe on a copyright by publishing an excerpt from a book without the author's permission, what exactly have I done "wrong"? Not from a legal standpoint but from an ethical one.


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