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Offlinecb9fl
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US figher jets not so great
    #4315114 - 06/19/05 10:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

Quote:

IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America's best fighter plane and shoot it down.

A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.

For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.

The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.

The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.

But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.

The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4316486 - 06/20/05 11:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

But what will it do in regards to the F-22?


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4316535 - 06/20/05 11:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I thought the F-22 was their best fighter?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: barfightlard]
    #4316702 - 06/20/05 12:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That doesn't necessarily mean that the U.S. fighter jets aren't so great. It was not a combat situation, the pilots(both RAF and U.S.) were most likely aware of each other(before they saw each other on RADAR or with eyes). It was not a chance encounter, but a mock training exercise, and training exercises should nearly always achieve what was planned to achieve.

How is the Eurofighter Typhoons' real war/combat record? Oh wait, it doesn't have one.

interesting... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_2000s_fighter_aircraft


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4316815 - 06/20/05 01:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:shrug: so

war isn't won by the best hardware.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4316859 - 06/20/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

f-15?????? against the Brits euros fighters. not fair. plus the Brits can fly a fighter jet well.

but a F-22 again ts the euro fighter would be like clubbing baby seals.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4316903 - 06/20/05 02:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i found this to be interesting.

www.airplanes.com/forums

This article was posted on http://www.f-15e.net, with interesting responses.

First, the press release that spawned the various articles:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of airsuperiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer.

It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District.Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre.

The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner,wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities.

It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome,as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history. But that is history now!

Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker.

They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon.

Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future. Let me quote some of their concerns over the years: The current USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. John P. Jumper, when was the head of Air Combat Command in 2001, said, "We 've had a chance to look at this latest generation of airplanes," and when US pilots flying real or simulated threat airplanes go against US pilots in current US fighters, "our guys flying their airplanes beat our guys flying our airplanes....And that airplane we 're flying is the F-15."

"I 've got 2,000 hours in the F-15," noted Brig. Gen. Daniel P. Leaf, the head of operational requirements. "It is a fabulous airplane. It is the undefeated heavy-weight champion of air superiority." Even so, he said, "it 's still a 1970s-designed airplane,updated to the max. [It is ] nonstealthy, non super-cruise. And you can only make it do so much....You have to build a new airplane. So we are."

Lt. Gen. Bruce A. Carlson, then director of operational requirements for the Air Force, said that "if we run the F-15 against the Rafale, or Typhoon, or Su-35, we would probably lose those fights."

"Typhoon will easily outstrip the capabilities of the Su-35 /-37, as well as the F-15, and in fact is considered second only to the F-22 in capability. Typhoon is more maneuverable and has better radar detection capability than the F-15 and is harder to detect on radar." (All the citations are from the AIR FORCE Magazine, the USAF monthly publication)

The Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom have known for a long time through the operational analysis studies conducted in defining the project,in re-evaluating it after the Cold War defence re-orientation phase that Eurofighter Typhoon is second only to the vastly more expensive F/A-22 and that it will assure overwhelming superiority over any current and future air threat.

Export customers in Austria, Greece and Norway have expressed their confidence in Eurofighter Typhoon's capabilities by either procuring, selecting or seriously considering it for their air power needs in the 21st century. Many other leading edge Air Forces are looking with great interest at Eurofighter Typhoon as it enters service and demonstrates its unparalleled capabilities.

We do not think that there is much of a debate about the need for air superiority, but there is a lack of appreciation for where air superiority comes from. There is a general feeling that it just happens or it belongs to us. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have air superiority because we had four Air Forces that paid attention to the lessons of history, specified and developed the appropriate weapon systems and move them forward. They know that "if we lose the war in the air, we lose the war and we lose it quickly" and that whoever controls the air generally controls the surface.

Eurofighter Typhoon, designed as a multirole fighter with air superiority as its key driver, is now ready to move forward and add significant new air-to-surface capabilities and further extend its air-to-air dominance.

O. Fabbro - Eurofighter GmbH - Market Analysis
Hallbergmoos, 23 February 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Notice who the author works for? And now the responses...

From Murph, an ex-F-15 instructor:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap,
Like anybody I always appreciate a good laugh. Hmm,
The Typhoons let a pair of Beagles get to their 8 o'clock (i.e swing their 3-9 line) and within visual range before they pick them up visually. By which time, if it was real, they would have long been testing Martin Baker's technology, at best. What happened to that superior radar technology (and presumably RWR) of the Typhoon the press release mentioned? Then the clean pair of Typhoons manage to win a visual fight with a pair of (almost certainly) CFT, two bag, LANTIRN pod, CATM laden F-15E's. The Strike Eagle is not the most maneuverable of jets in that state. Try that instead against a 220/229, clean F-15A/C/E or MLU F-16. Finally I thought a benchmark involved setting new standards? Evidently the Typhoon is, by the article's own admission, setting the benchmark for second place (it's not as good as the Raptor). What was that saying about "no points for second place in air combat?" The Typhoon is an extremely capable aircraft, but this press release is laughable.

Regards,
Murph
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Toro, an F-15E pilot out of Lakenheath:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolute horse$hit,
I know nothing about the Typhoons capabilities, but using this example to boast of its dominance over the Strike Eagle is absolutely ridiculous - it in fact meant that the Typhoon pilots were in violation of UK regulation.

Quote
Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW

In the UK, we have what is called "Target of Opportunity" which basically says that if you squawk Mode 1-11, you're identifying yourself as desiring intercept/engagement. We use it all the time both at low and medium altitude if we have a little extra gas going to or from our working area. Basically, we'll do a stern conversion on a guy and, if he sees us, start to turn with him. Then we knock off the fight with a wing rock because the regs say that our maneuvering category is LIMITED. For those who don't know, this means you can only turn 180 degrees.

Quote
The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated

With two Eagles within visual range at your 9 o'clock? I would sure as hell be intidimated...oh no I wouldn't...I'd be dead.

Quote
and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail,

So in other words, they violated their maneuvering limitations and continued to turn past 180 degrees.

Quote
comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner,wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

No, he was probably wondering, "Why the hell is this guy still turning with me eventhough I'm rocking my wings to terminate the engagement?"

As I said, I don't know anything about the Typhoon's capabilities, but if they're going to use this as an example of its air superiority (and in fact the whole basis for which this article was written), they've got no respect from me.

Raptor, where did you find this article? I'd like to send the original version to some of my co-workers. I'm sure they'd get a good chuckle out of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Yeti, an F-15E WSO:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL, the typhoons beat up the fat kid!

Seriously, it's a good bit of reverse propaganda... "Look how weak we are, we NEED a new fighter!" The undisputed heavyweight champeen of air superiority is close... Sumo wrestlers of air superiority is more like it for the F-15E though.

Believe me, there was no "wondering what had happened". The F-15E's jumped the tiffies, took their shots, the tiffies defended, possibly beyond the extent of the training rules letter of agreement, and quite easily outturned the F-15Es because almost everything but a global hawk UAV can outturn an F-15E. Not very tricky or suprising.

If the F-15E crews stuck around to continue the engagement, then that may be an odd decision, but I find it hard to believe that they were suprised unless they thought they were jumping a pair of tornados or something like that. The last time I jumped a pair of clean F-16's, it was all over in seconds (I was red-air). I shot one on the first pass, the second one was gunning me very shortly thereafter. That's just what F-16's do when confronted with an F-15E. Jumping 2 typhoons won't be any different.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Hacker, an F-15E pilot serving a tour as a T-38 instructor:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am continually amazed at "reports" like this in the press. What is disappointing is that most non-fighter people don't understand that this kind of stuff is basically nonsense.

All you have to do is read the thread on this over at r.a.m. and you'll see that people continue to get whipped into a frenzy over this sort of thing.

My question is, would anyone bat an eyelash if the topic of the article was "F-15Es trounce F-4s"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just wanted to share these enlightening posts with y'all...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4317045 - 06/20/05 02:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"US fighter jets not so great"

don't worry everyone, the pilots are given amphetamines when they go on military missions, so that makes up for whatever weakness the jets might have.

oh, but the counterpart to that is that sometimes pilots don't target actual ennmies. "oops! sorry, i'm high!"


--------------------


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: exclusive58]
    #4317149 - 06/20/05 03:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

> don't worry everyone, the pilots are given amphetamines

Hmmm... Bush had a thing for uppers in the past....
Hmmm... Fighter pilots are given ampthetamines to help stay alert...
Hmmm... Bush was a fighter pilot, when he decided to show up for work...
Hmmm... Hitler took ampthetamines while waging war against the world...
Hmmm... A lot of people compare Bush to Hitler...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4317234 - 06/20/05 04:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Most of our airforce is improved airplanes from Vietnam. Such as the AC-130 Gunship which is pretty much a flying battleship with a 40mm cannon and a 105 mm cannon will pretty much annihilate anything in its path.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4317305 - 06/20/05 04:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Most of our airforce is improved airplanes from Vietnam. Such as the AC-130 Gunship which is pretty much a flying battleship with a 40mm cannon and a 105 mm cannon will pretty much annihilate anything in its path.





That gunship is only good for attacking targets on the ground.

It aint worth a shit in air to air combat.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #4317360 - 06/20/05 04:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Actually I thought the Joint Strike Fighter was supposed to be the most badass plane. Maybe that's in a different class though?


Hmm maybe .. from wikipedia

Quote:

The JSF is a multi-role attack and fighter aircraft designed to replace the aging F-16 Fighting Falcon, F/A-18 Hornet, A-10 Thunderbolt II, F-111 Aardvark, Sea Harrier, Harrier GR7/GR9, and AV-8B Harrier jets. It will complement the USAF's high-end F/A-22 Raptor air superiority fighter and the USN's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as well as Europe's Eurofighter.




--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: cb9fl]
    #4317444 - 06/20/05 04:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

At best the the press is basically a commercial "Hey one of our jets beat the AMERICANS!, So buy our jet"
The defense industry is big business.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: California]
    #4318265 - 06/20/05 08:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

But what are their infantry doing? That's who wins wars, not flyboys. Our Bradleys and tanks will put a whoopin on anyone willing to step up.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4318271 - 06/20/05 08:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

putting pride in things that kill people is cool :thumbup:  go humans!


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: barfightlard]
    #4318503 - 06/20/05 10:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What else do you think puts us at the top of the world? Try taking away all the things that kill and many animals would be able to kill you. Take away all the things that kill people from countries and they would be taken over.

One could call it a necessary evil, except for the fact that weapons aren't evil. We're simply experiencing survival.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: Ravus]
    #4318547 - 06/20/05 10:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't mention anything abou animals. If they were all taken away how would they be taken over?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: barfightlard]
    #4318567 - 06/20/05 10:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

We've been developing weapons since the dawn of humanity. There's no way all weapons could be taken away. Realistically, the farthest you'd get would be disarming some individual countries, and in disarming, if even one country had a secret stash of weapons, it could invade any defenseless ones.

Idealistic scenarios don't really work; realistically, we need weapons to balance out the possession of weapons by other countries.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: Ravus]
    #4318580 - 06/20/05 10:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ok. I just get the feeling that alot of people take pride in this shit and enjoy that we use them for death. Wepons arn't the problem, it's how we use them.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: US figher jets not so great [Re: barfightlard]
    #4318617 - 06/20/05 10:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I take pride in air superiority.

There is a reason air to air combat has become increasingly rare. Enemies will not send their aircraft or helicopters against us even if they have them, because they well know what will happen to them. There was a reason the Iraqi air force fled to Iran in the first Gulf War. There were some capable aircraft that could have been used against our warships or our troops. But they hightailed it.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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