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 niteowl
GrandPaw
 
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
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 Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me...........  [Re: trendal]
#4315210 - 06/19/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:A thing doesn't have to "exist" to have meaning. The concept itself is definable and holds meaning, whether it "exists" in reality or not.
Then please give a definition of unnatural.
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 SevenFlowers
Mystic Mixtec
Registered: 07/17/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Seattle, WA, USA
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: niteowl]
#4316123 - 06/20/05 03:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see what you guys are saying but the word is used mostly to talk about things which humans have not created. That's simply what the word means. It's not saying we aren't natural. Although we do create babies, we haven't tried to imitate nature when we make babies because we are natural creatures doing a natural process.
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... just some food for thought.
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eligal
Noobie
Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: SevenFlowers]
#4316137 - 06/20/05 03:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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and who says creating big polluting industries isnt natural. we are natural animals, creating with the limitations we were given. would this not be considered a natural process. maybe this is what we were meant to do.
(i actually had a dream which stuck in my head...
it was my mom telling me that it had been depicted - in the bible?? not sure what she said - that the possiblilty of apocolypse whould seize when man created computer...) i know this dream sounds stupid... but its one of those things that stays in your head and when ever you hear things like this it reminds you of it...
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\m/ Spanksta \m/
"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"
"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"
"tactik said:
respect the can."
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Billy1111]
#4316159 - 06/20/05 04:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Artificial" is simply a concept and a valid one. Otherwise, how would you define something made by man ?
Is the plastic flower in your table as natural as the flower on your backyard ?
"Global Warming", war , genocides , cities , cars, all are artificial because they are produced or thought to by produced - in a crafted sense - by man. Natural is the absence of man craftsmanship.
Of course there's can be a philosophical discussion on what is produced as influence of man and what is not. Nevertheless, the definition and concept of "artificial" exists and can be logically applied in many situations.
MAIA
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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: MAIA]
#4316303 - 06/20/05 07:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well artificial in my view is something manmade that is made to resemble something that is not manmade or not made in the way it usually is referred to.
"Ethylacetate is artificial apple aroma used to flavour candy" (manmade in imitation of something not manmade)
"Furfuraldehyde is routinely put in foodstore airconditioning systems because it gives the artifical aroma of freshly baked bread" (manmade in imitation of something manmade)
To me everything is natural. DMT was considered a "synthetic" until it was discovered it was all over the plant and animal kingdom.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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 Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316363 - 06/20/05 08:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Unnatural, is the naturalness of nature!"
-Unknown :P
It is so natural to be unnatural, even unnatural, is natural...
Like logic, its so logical, that its logic that logic is unlogical..
"one DO NOT, have to do anything, to be who you are!"
-Unknown :P
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Disclaimer!?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Gomp]
#4316390 - 06/20/05 08:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316407 - 06/20/05 08:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
"Ethylacetate is artificial apple aroma used to flavour candy" (manmade in imitation of something not manmade)
"Furfuraldehyde is routinely put in foodstore airconditioning systems because it gives the artifical aroma of freshly baked bread" (manmade in imitation of something manmade)
I expect that apples contain ethylacetate which is why they smell like apples. The same is most likely true for bread and furfuraldehyde.
So if these two chemicals exist in the "real thing"...what makes the isolated chemicals "artificial"?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: trendal]
#4316438 - 06/20/05 09:03 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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As the human consciousness is concerned, which partly belongs to spiritual worlds, the question is, where does this spirit come from ?
Unnatural is, if man wants to separate from the context of his surrounding nature. Many 'unnatural people' dream of a artificial existence, with plastic-food, factory-driven atmosphere and such things, where the eco-system becomes totally irrelevant.
The spirit of these men has influenced their consciousness to separate from the surrounding eco-system (which is LIFE) in the hope to be independent of that eco-system, to be only dependent on themselves.
I think, that's unnatural.
Why ?
Because, if any 'natural' event will bring this artificial system to imbalance, chances are high that the artificial system totally collapses...
But key to 'unnaturalness' is spirit and consciousness...
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: trendal]
#4316472 - 06/20/05 09:22 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I expect that apples contain ethylacetate which is why they smell like apples. The same is most likely true for bread and furfuraldehyde.
So if these two chemicals exist in the "real thing"...what makes the isolated chemicals "artificial"?
Ah but no real apples were used, instead alcohol and vinegar were reacted in the presence of sulphuric acid
Similarly, the loafs of bread came from a van, and the "freshly baked" odour is from furfuraldehyde, made from formic acid and furan.
In both cases a Real Thing is imitated but is not present or used. That makes it artificial
You can call Psilocybin "mushroom hallucinogen" even if its derived from petrochemical indole. In that case there is no difference. You can't call it "mushroom extract" however because the one is and the other is not.
Similarly candy made with real apples has far more constituents than Ethylacetate (which btw is a bee stinging pheromone) and the odor of freshly baked bread is far richer than its marker furfuraldehyde.
Artificial = made to resemble an original.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316494 - 06/20/05 09:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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to see the naturalness of something is to see how it fits in nature.
with some detatchment one can view the most dispicable things and see the dependent chain of causes and effects enmeshed in a natural history of individuals or groups.
nature is not all good or all bad: what we cultivate of nature gets to be excellent, yet there are weeds to deal with and blights of various kinds.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316641 - 06/20/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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which btw is a bee stinging pheromone
Sure you aren't thinking about isopentyl acetate?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316650 - 06/20/05 10:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Artificial = made to resemble an original.
Would you consider the markings on a butterfly's wings to be "artificial"?? They are made to resemble faces, in order to confuse would-be predators.
So, by your definition, a butterfly's wing markings are "artificial".
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: trendal]
#4316688 - 06/20/05 10:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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the question of artificiality versus naturalness probably goes to our self-defense against pretense:
i.e. we feel offended and unballanced when another being pretends or becomes pretentious, or offensively artificial, as if playing with jokers or trump cards.
all of art and science are essentially artificial or secondary, but this secondary processing of nature is natural to our species (like bees and wax or honey). Even being pretentious is natural to our species - just not really how we want to cultivate our gardens.
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_ 🧠 _
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: redgreenvines]
#4316700 - 06/20/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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just not really how we want to cultivate our gardens.
There's something I'm in agreement with! I don't like making the distinction between "man made" and "natural" because I consider "man made" to be "natural". In the same light, I don't like to think of "nature" as "good" and "artificial" as "bad".
But that doesn't mean that all "natural" things (ie: everything) is desirable.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: trendal]
#4316805 - 06/20/05 11:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Whoops, isopentyl acetate it is 
I confused it; it is a pheromone of several species though
Quote:
Would you consider the markings on a butterfly's wings to be "artificial"?? They are made to resemble faces, in order to confuse would-be predators.
So, by your definition, a butterfly's wing markings are "artificial".
It's an artificial predator but a natural butterfly camouflage ^_^
Quote:
ar?ti?fi?cial
Pronunciation Key (?rt-fshl)
adj.
.
1.
1. Made by humans; produced rather than natural.
2. Brought about or caused by sociopolitical or other human-generated forces or influences: set up artificial barriers against women and minorities; an artificial economic boom.
2. Made in imitation of something natural; simulated: artificial teeth.
3. Not genuine or natural: an artificial smile.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,396
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: Another Question That Has Bugged Me........... [Re: Asante]
#4316941 - 06/20/05 12:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Only point 1 and 2 belong to this discussion as they refer to a creational origin of things.
I think artificial and unnatural are two totally different things. If you think about the butterfly example, the camouflage can be considered artificial if you connect it with the meaning of "artifice", a word on the basis of "artificial":
Quote:
1. An artful or crafty expedient; a stratagem. See Synonyms at wile.
2. Subtle but base deception; trickery.
3. Cleverness or skill; ingenuity.
It's a natural artifice. So the camouflage is natural on its origin but artificial on its objective.
MAIA
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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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