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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts?
    #4313480 - 06/19/05 12:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

According to my catholic bible i think it's one, this is in no way to discredit the Bible in any way as being an accurate historical document. I am just curious, if anyone knows could they pls enlighten me, thanks :smile:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #4313497 - 06/19/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

accurate historical document

Historical document, maybe, but accurate? The Bible is full of conflicting stories and contradictions.

eye witness accounts

All four were written by apostles, so how could they be other than eye-witness accounts? Or do you mean eye-witness accounts of the crucifixion or the resurrection specifically??


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #4313561 - 06/19/05 01:27 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

All four are supposedly eye-witness accounts.

3 were written more or less as eye-witness accounts, and the remaining one was written with a bit more literary flair (the Gospel of John). Because of this it is usually held aside from the other 3, probably also atributable to John being the "favored" apostle (if such a word can be used).


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: Diploid]
    #4313594 - 06/19/05 01:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That's an astute observation and i apologise both to you and this forum for posting without thinking. I guess that's what i get to trust the catholic church to be telling the truth about ANYthing  :smirk:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: trendal]
    #4313597 - 06/19/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Oh Trendal, go fall face down in the mud somewhere will you? :grin:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #4313700 - 06/19/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

None. Read Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Gospels With Jewish Eyes by John Shelby Spong if you want about the best recent take on the construction of the New Testament.

There was nobody from The Bethlehem (or Nazareth - depending on the version) Gazette taking notes on the birth of a child among farm animals, while an astronomical anomaly shone down upon the scene. Midrash, the word is midrash.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4314141 - 06/19/05 05:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Midrash, the word is midrash.

I had a lowrash once. I'd tell you about it, but I think it would be off-topic.  :blush:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: trendal]
    #4314229 - 06/19/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

These books - the 3 Synoptics ['same view'], and the Johannine material (written anywhere from 80 AD to 120 AD, when Hellenization of the original Jewish sect was obvious) - were liturgical writings that followed the Jewish holiday calendar. They appealed to the most concrete thinking early believers, particularly the so-called 'tomb narratives' which described a physical Resurrection. Resurrection was already a belief held by the Pharasaic Jews at that time, deriving from apocalyptic works like the Book of Daniel. The mind of 1st century Jews thought and wrote midrashically. Midrash is a story format that communicates a spiritual truth. It is NOT a modern scientific-journalistic accounting of accurately reported historical events.

The Johannine material is completely reflective of Greek ideas such as being 'GOD clothed in flesh,' the 'Logos [Greek: word, reason, meaning] Incarnate,' is not a Jewish concept, and a radical departure from the Jewish theology of the Synoptics in which Y'shua is thought to be a 'man anointed by the LORD,' the promised Meshiach [Greek: Christos, from the root of chrism - anointing oil]. It is Hellenistic mythology which held the idea of a 'Hero' born of a god and a mortal woman, like Hercules [Greek: Heracles], never Jewish thought. Unfortunately, the theology of John has 'colored' the Synoptics in the minds of most non-thinking, non-reading 'Christians' and John became the Gospel responsible for countless pogroms and massacres of Jews throughout history through its misreading and generalizations. Paradoxically, John is also the most philosophically sublime of the four Gospels that were included in the Bible. However, there were many other Gospels in existence then as now (since the discovery at Nag Hammadi in 1945 - the so-called Gnostic Gospels).

John, the "beloved disciple" lives out his life on the isle of Patmos, tripping out on all kinds of apocalyptic visions and writing them down. Revelations was almost excluded from the canon because it was 'too Gnostic' in flavor - having visions revealed to a man directly from GOD - no church, priesthood, sacraments, etc. just a lone tripper on an island. The other disciples (except for the Magdalene, according to legend) met terrible ends: Peter is crucified upside down on the broken cross (peace sign, crow's foot), Paul is 'humanely' beheaded because he's a Roman citizen, the others meet similar fates. There is a message about being contemplative, visionary and closest to Jesus in John. Whoever actually wrote the Johannine material had a Greek philosophical, possibly Platonic contemplative agenda. It's high stuff, but it ain't Jewish and hence it ain't what Y'shua Himself had in mind.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4314376 - 06/19/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting read Markos, pls tell me what they mean by Q though? :confused:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #4315128 - 06/19/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Q for 'quelle' in the German - the source that the temporally first canonical Gospel (Mark) was derived from. Many fragments circulated around until they were combined into Mark. Matthew had his Judaizing agenda, Luke the physician gives details, John I mentioned. The Church Fathers so-called worked for Emperor Constantine to provide a theology that supported the political power structure: no salvation outside the Church of Rome and we hold the keys. Obey or go to Hell. The Gnostic Christians almost won out but lost in the end because they appealed to the more intellectual individuals, and we all know (as Ken Kesey used to say) that there are always more dumb people in a situation than smart ones.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4319822 - 06/21/05 09:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

ave markos!

sure, the gnostics were anti-authoritarian...
but their theology was so open-ended that it made for diversity, while the "catholic" (as in "universal") was made for centralization... (which was perfect - when the empire began to splinter, & civil authority was pretty much supplanted by ecclesiastical authority...)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: gnrm23]
    #4322418 - 06/21/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Greetings and Salutations gnrm23!
Seems you've been scarce around these parts of late...hope all is well.
We really ought to have a chat one of these days (I promise I don't talk like I write  :smile:).

Peace.
-MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: How many of the 4 major Gospels were eye witness accounts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4323918 - 06/22/05 09:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i am often "here" (cybernautically speaking) but sometimes have little or nothing to add the the ol' info-flowing whirlpool...
& sometimes i do, eh?

~
& per the gospel "eye-witness" accounts...
well, paul's epistles are prolly the earliest extant documents form the early (apostolic era) milieu...
but he was not in galilee or judea during the time the ministry of jesus (yeshua. yeshai. issa.) or for his passion...
and those of "the way" in particular (since their hopes for the messaiah of israel were realized in jesus) & the pharisees in general (since the messiah MUST appear any day now - the signs were all there -- "how long, o lord, how long?") saw little use in writing down their accounts of what had transpired, since upon his return ("come, lord jesus!") was gonna happen any day now, & with that event history would come to an end, basically... the eschaton immanentized (apollylollygies to shea & wilson, eh?) & this creation finally completed, redeemed, & destroyed by it's creator...
apocolypse revealed, yowza...

or something like that, mmmmm?


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Edited by gnrm23 (06/22/05 10:12 AM)


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