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Invisiblemikonn
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Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help.
    #4307485 - 06/17/05 12:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

OK. So If any of you have been following my posts over the last few days, you'll now that I've been having trouble identifing a few blueing mushrooms i've been finding. One of which I'm fairly confident is some varient of a Copelandia Cyanescens (which has never been shown to grow here in the state of Maryland (usa)) and the other is a mysterious ballon shaped seemingly sporeless one, that a number of people said reminded them of a Conocyble. Now, I have only found three kind of mushrooms at this field, the two aforementioned ones and what I believe are Conocybe Lactea. It occured to me today, while I was there again gathering new specimens, that the mystery one look rather like the two combined. Then I did a little research and read that hybrids of two species can often be sporeless, not producing a valid new species. Now I'm pretty new to all this, and I may be way off, but it would be great if some of you could take a look and offer you opinion and expertise. Please refer to the previous posts for more info...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4290387#Post4290387
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4299541#Post4299541



This is pretty large but it lays it all out as I see it.

A shot of the gills of this "hybrid"

another

and finally a decent shot of the gills of the "Copelandia Cyanescens"ish ones I've been finding.

Thanks so much for your help.

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4307580 - 06/17/05 01:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This is my opinion, but i don't really believe two totally different species of mushrooms can result in a new specie.
There can be other obvious explanations. One i can think of can relate to genetic degeneration in certain parts of the field, probably thanks to the use of chemical products. That would make all those mushrooms belong to the same specie but with some deformed exceptions.

MAIA


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InvisibleGumby
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: MAIA]
    #4309591 - 06/17/05 11:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Due to the reproductive methods in fungi, hybridization is not really possible by any reasonable means.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4310693 - 06/18/05 11:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i dont see any bluing on any of your mushrooms..

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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4311020 - 06/18/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

GGreatOne234,

If you refer to the previous posts that I reference in this one you should find pics that detail the blueing in both types.
but here are a few pics.



Edited by mikonn (06/18/05 02:25 PM)

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4311098 - 06/18/05 02:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ok i read through all your posts.
it's interesting, yet baffleing.

you're finding active "shrooms",
im just not sure which species..

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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4311147 - 06/18/05 03:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I'm stumped even to genus, let alone species. I'd need one in my hand to figure it out with any certainty.


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Offlinewildbill
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4311197 - 06/18/05 03:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

in my field where i pick the Copelandia Cyanescens i know it is the only active shroom on the field but i have found the ones that looked like they never had spores but they were a good trip so i just said w/e they are active and thats was enough for me.


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Offlinenycomyco
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4311968 - 06/18/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

those are some great finds. A new species of panaeolus in maryland?

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: nycomyco]
    #4312019 - 06/18/05 08:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I still think your Pans are pan subbs.

After a closer look at the balloon shrooms I think they are also Pan subbs, mutant sterile pan subbs with deformed caps.  The light gills would be consistent with a sterile black-spored mushroom. Of course they could also be Pan foens, mutant sterile active Pan foens :eek:

The resemblance to Conocybe is merely a result of the mutation.

That's my best guess at the simplest rational explanation.

I still advise against eating the unknown species.

Try tearing a few of them apart from each species, do they feel the same?

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Offlineeris
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4312093 - 06/18/05 09:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Your posts are quite interesting.. When I zoom in on some of your pics, I see a definate blue color. It's very hard to see it without zooming in - on my monitor at least.
I've been hunting in maryland for like 10 years. I live about 5 mins from the maryland state border.. I've never found any of those that I know of. Very interesting finds... keep us posted on what you find out.


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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: eris]
    #4313342 - 06/19/05 09:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

yes, it's very strange.

I went out to the field again this morning.
I found a few specimens that showed more extensive blueing ( note: the this blueing is seen as soon as the mushroom is pulled.)
Here are a few.

Here are some details.


Now the second close-up picture in both of the above sets has been run through a process in photoshop called the "equalize adjustment". Here is what it does.

"The Equalize command redistributes the brightness values of the pixels in an image so that they more evenly represent the entire range of brightness levels. When you apply this command, Photoshop finds the brightest and darkest values in the composite image and remaps them so that the brightest value represents white and the darkest value represents black. Photoshop then attempts to equalize the brightness?that is, to distribute the intermediate pixel values evenly throughout the grayscale."

Just an experiment to highlight the blueing.

Here are a few others found today at the same spot.


Still looking...

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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: eris]
    #4313360 - 06/19/05 09:23 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

eris,

Which border? northern (penn), southern(dc/va)northeastern (de) or northwestern (wva)?

Edited by mikonn (06/19/05 09:51 AM)

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Invisibleivi
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: shroomydan]
    #4313505 - 06/19/05 10:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
I still think your Pans are pan subbs.

After a closer look at the balloon shrooms I think they are also Pan subbs, mutant sterile pan subbs with deformed caps.  The light gills would be consistent with a sterile black-spored mushroom. Of course they could also be Pan foens, mutant sterile active Pan foens :eek:




Sterile Mutant Ninja Foens :laugh:

The wrinkled, crackled to form of scales caps in some shade of brown (like in this photo), often occur in several species of Panaeoli.



But Panaeolus subbalteatus usually have the dark brown encircling zone around the margin of the cap even when they are dry. In fact they are named after it.

Also, as far as I know bruising reaction so extensive is uncharacteristic to these species, but, however, not impossible.

So all these mysterious light gilled mushrooms do not drop any spores at all and the rest (except Conocybe lactea) drop black, is that correct, mikonn?



A sterile dark-spored mushroom could indeed have gills like that easily.

Here's a photo of sporeless Psilocybe cubensis that came up after a quick Google search:



I'd also love to see a photo of your mushrooms in their natural habitat.

After looking through all your threads about these mushrooms, like shroomydan I'd rather go with "strained to the extreme" Panaeolus subbalteatus rather than Panaeolus-Conocybe hybrids or not yet described Panaeolus species (which, of course, is also possible).

Do you have access to the microscope by any chance? I wouldn't eat those mushrooms unless I could at least identify them down to genus Panaeolus which is not known to contain any poisonous species.


--------------------

Edited by ivi (06/19/05 10:55 AM)

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: ivi]
    #4317049 - 06/20/05 12:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i still think they are active because they clearly bruise blue at the base of the stems.

do they taste/smell spermatic, like Copelandia's do?
or do they taste/smell like Panaeolus subbalteatus?

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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: ivi]
    #4319840 - 06/21/05 07:24 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hi there. Thanks for all of your thoughtful consideration.  I'm sorry I haven't been able to devote the time I would like to this, however life has interceded (as it always seems to do) and I have a few things more pressing to attend to. 
As for your questions:  all of the ones that I had identified as being Copes dropped black prints and bruised blue; and I have not been able get any prints from the "ballon" ones (having tried on both white and black paper just in case). 
I do have access to a microscope(sort of... its my wife's 20 year old childs microscope she got in elementary school) and needless to say, it is wanting in many aspects.  I've made slides of the spores from the ones that are dropping spores, and I can see them, sorta, but not in great enough detail to be of use.  Like I said things are prohibitively busy right now, so I'm having to put this to the side for a week or so, however I have been in contact with someone who may be able to help in identification, and if I can I will persue that in the coming week.


As for GGreatOne234's questions concerning the smell and taste, and also the overall contention that these may be Pan Subbs, I can only offer that I don't believe that I have ever successfully found Pan Subbs (and if I have, I haven't known it) and that I'm not sure if I can say that these "spermatic" in taste or smell (this is not meant as a sorta homophobic type thing where I'm saying that I don't know what sperm smells like ( though I will admit that in terms of taste I would have to extrapolate from my knowledge of its smell :smile:)

As for the Black Spored ones, I would be very suprised if they turn out to be Pan Subbs, since they seem not to resemble any photograph or description of a Pan Subb that I have seen so far, like I've said, macroscopically the closest match I can draw is Copelandia Cyanescen, though I am rather new to this game so it's anyones quess.

One last tidbit: I will try to take a photograph of both types "in situ" as soon as I am able, but I can say that I have found both types  fruiting either singularly or in small groups or clusters of say 3 to 7, both presentations seem equally as frequent and true across the limited geographical dispersment where they have been found.  Hope that makes sense.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4321271 - 06/21/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

do the caps stain blue at all?

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Invisiblemikonn
me

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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: ivi]
    #4322185 - 06/21/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ok here are some photos of the ballon-y ones in ground. The pickins are gettin slim. some rain is due in a couple of days...



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Invisiblemikonn
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #4322214 - 06/21/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not on the ballon-y ones. the ones that I said might be cope cyans, did seem to blue moderately

deep blue on a few caps and around a few margins.

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4322575 - 06/21/05 09:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

First off, there are four bluing species of Concocybe. Lacteria is not one. Also the bluing in the genera Concoybe is only restricted to the bulbous base at the va ery bottom of the stem and does not blue up the stem. The stems are also watery clear whitish color, and never more than 3 inches in height. The caps are always conical and the c gills are completely cinnamon colored. mj, a slightly blurred iamge should be at mushroomjohn.com site bt lately the operators of the site have dozens of links which are not working.
I have no time currently to go through the site here in Thailand to see what is or is not opening up. But I too have found several pages which are there adn missing images.

mj

have a shroomy day. The other blue-stemd staining shrooms appear to be a species of copelandia.

mj

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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: mikonn]
    #4322696 - 06/21/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Copelandia chlorocystis?

Check your PM's.

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InvisibleGumby
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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: ivi]
    #4322795 - 06/21/05 10:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I would agree with some mutant, sterile species of Panaeolus. If the species has been named yet, who knows?

I forgot where these were found, but it seems to be grass. My guess is some strange fertilizer or pesticide was used on the grass and it caused the mushrooms to mutate. I'd be weary about eating them just for that reason. The fact that they drop no spores at all is a dead give away (to me at least) that they are sterile mushrooms.

If you find them earlier, do the caps have more color, or are they always white?

Pan subbs will turn the same color after a few hours in the sun. Pan subbs will also blue fairly hardcore depending on what they're growing from. In my subb patch I've found that when the subbs grow in the grass compost mixed with leaves and twigs, they're more likely to blue (which isn't very likely at all).

Over 4 or so years I think I might have found 10 subbs that blued out of 10,000. Mitchnast (member here), on the other hand, picks quite a bit of bluing subbs. Guess it's a regional/substrate/genetic thing.

Here's some pics of bluing subbs that I've found:



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Invisiblemikonn
me

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Re: Possible Active Hybrid between Copelandia Cyanescens and Conocybe Lactea? Please Help. [Re: Gumby]
    #4329945 - 06/23/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gumby said:

If you find them earlier, do the caps have more color, or are they always white?





They are actually a sorta light shade of popcorn yellow and they seem to become darker with age/prolonged exposure to the sun. you can sorta see it in this pic.


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