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Invisibleagar
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SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY * 1
    #4304812 - 06/16/05 07:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS:

agar?s opinion - set forth - so you can relate to the circumstance.

Multi/spore inoculation of a wbs/rye jar utilizes a syringe to literally squirt a spore laden solution into a sterilized seed/grain nutrient medium - with an optimal moisture content - held within a glass container, with some provision to allow for gas exchange.

The purpose of doing so, is in hopes that the spores will germinate into mycelia, and that mycelia will mate & colonize all the grains within the jar - as an uncontaminated culture, which can then be used as a substrate, or as spawn into a bulk substrate.

Mushroom spores are microscopic in size. The germination process is the initial step in the birth of the culture. As with all things in life, during germination, gestation & birth, whatever it is being born is generally very susceptible to damage or destruction from any detrimental outside forces, because it has no natural defenses.

For a mushroom spore to successfully germinate, requires certain levels of moisture, heat, nutrients, a short period of time to in which to do so. Once it has germinated, it requires more time to establish itself, then it will begin colonizing the nutrient mass around it.

The point being, any tiny fragile newborn thing, in a defenseless state will not do well, can be easily damaged & sometimes die from being shaken, battered or beaten.

Ponder how fragile & defenseless you - yourself were during gestation & at birth. If you were subjected to a severe beating at that time, most probably - it would have caused you serious defects, injury, and/or possibly death.

The same goes for germinating & newborn mushroom spores. Shaking the seed/grains the spores are germinating on, or have germinated on - equals battering & damaging those tiny defenseless newborns. Damage of any sort does nothing to increase colonization speeds. In fact, it slows the process & can sometimes halt it. You might also ponder that any damaged organism is much more susceptible to outside infection, than a healthy one.

The only time "shaking" a seed/grain jar is beneficial - is when the seed/grain is partially colonized to around 15 to 30 percent. Shaking at that time will distribute colonized seed/grain throughout the container, which after healing, create more contact points for colonization to spread out from. Which will increase colonization - exponentially thereafter.

In other words, once you see germination, let it spread. Don?t shake the jar & batter the content. Once that germination is well established, allow it to colonize 15 to 30 % of the seed/grain content. Then, shake the jar - but only enough to spread colonized seed/grains throughout the content & no more. Then - continue incubating the jar until 100% colonized.

Some have differing opinions. This method makes sense & works well - for me. I only post this because I often see folks state they shake their jars every other day, or every so often then wonder why colonization slows, stalls, or contaminates.


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Invisiblebackupwards
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: agar]
    #4304834 - 06/16/05 07:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

nice, thanks for the info agar.  :thumbup:
peace


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: backupwards]
    #4305205 - 06/16/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think it would benefit people to not necessarily shake the jars once innoc'd, but to roll them carefully as to evenly distribute the spores.

While your post makes sense and is probably true, i battered the hell outta my WBS jars right after innoc and they did fine, but hell, maybe they could of done better.


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OfflineSouthPArk
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: yousuck]
    #4305237 - 06/16/05 09:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Ooops....

I dont know where I read this but someone said that you should shake the jarz right after they have been PC'd

I know the spores are not in their but Is this step unnecessary?

It said it prevent's clumping la8r on

-i know up 12 pint jars of RYE and SHOOK THEM all the same

I SMOKE to much :bongload: so I couldnt really tell ya how long it took to colonize but ..

is Shaking at 15-30% the "ONLY" time??
thnx 4 the Help agar...Your a true ShroomGuru

:mushroom2:  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:  4 U


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: yousuck]
    #4305263 - 06/16/05 09:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention that if you don't wait for around 15-30%, it doesn't seem to me that there is really all that much mycelium to go around the jar anyways.


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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: SouthPArk]
    #4305267 - 06/16/05 09:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Shaking the jars right out of the PC helps create even moisture distribution. The grain at the bottom of the jar is wetter than the grains at the top when they first come out.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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OfflineKaptKid
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: agar]
    #4305289 - 06/16/05 09:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Would shaking the jars after inoculation hurt the spores? Or would rolling them gently as yousuck suggested be better?


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Invisibleagar
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: yousuck]
    #4305312 - 06/16/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

yousuck said:
I think it would benefit people to not necessarily shake the jars once innoc'd, but to roll them carefully as to evenly distribute the spores.

While your post makes sense and is probably true, i battered the hell outta my WBS jars right after innoc and they did fine, but hell, maybe they could of done better.




Shaking a jar just after it is inoculated, simply spreads the spores in the grains - inside the jar & does no particular damage - because they are not yet germinating.

I prefer to be able to see germination - where I injected spores. I inoculate with 5 squirts, 1 down the center & 1 in each corner (about 1/2 ml each squirt)against the glass.

That way, spoes are distributed down the center of the WBS/grain & into the 4 corners of the jar - against the glass & that is where very visible germination should take place.


EXAMPLE of 1 side of a multispore inoculation day 6.

EXAMPLE of the same on day 14, shaken at 20%


Anyone can do it - anyway they please.

This just explains my reasoning & the method.
Nothing more, nothing less.




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Offlinescottbaioiscool
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: agar]
    #4305386 - 06/16/05 10:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for the info man. thats good stuff


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OfflineCLUTCH
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: agar]
    #4306437 - 06/17/05 03:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

excellent post agar.

Question...  If any, how many books have you written?  I think if you had, there would be a lot of people here that would buy that sucka!

How come a few of you brainiacs haven't gotten together and written a book similar to Paul Staments book?  Only in your own words and experiences. Or even just one of you?  Not knocking The Mushroom Cultivator or anything.  It has some great info in it, however, It's a little more interesting to read your posts.

But that would take away from your time on the shroomery though, so maybe not a good idea. :thumbdown:

OK, I'm getting back on the post here...ok..umm

So, when you do your jars, do you put a total of five holes in the lid for inoculating?  If so, how many holes do you leave untaped on the lid after knocking them up?


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Offlineblackout
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: CLUTCH]
    #4306687 - 06/17/05 05:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have been making grains purposely drier than usual, this means I can add large amounts of LC, say 60ml to a jar to acheive the moisture content that I want. This results in rapid colonisation and can be so evenly spread that no shaking is needed. I microwaved some wheat until it was bone dry and added LC for moisture, it colonised very quickly.

Can anybody see a downside to this?


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Invisibleshobimono
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: blackout]
    #4306722 - 06/17/05 06:13 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

60ml of lc seems to be a lot of lc for each jar. The downside I see is that you need to be producing a heck of a lot of lc.
To me it makes more sense to get the moisture content correct in the first place, then add lc, instead of using lc to get the moisture content correct.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: shobimono]
    #4306735 - 06/17/05 06:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shobimono said:
The downside I see is that you need to be producing a heck of a lot of lc.



Well people doing 10 jars would need 600ml, not too much. I would be doing only 2 jars/bags max at a time. If the moisture content is correct at the start then you can only add a small amount of LC since any more will mess up your water content. Most would agree it is best to have your grain as soon as you can after sterilisation, this speeds things up well.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: CLUTCH]
    #4306745 - 06/17/05 07:14 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CLUTCH said:
So, when you do your jars, do you put a total of five holes in the lid for inoculating? If so, how many holes do you leave untaped on the lid after knocking them up?




Two (2) holes in the lid is normal for me. I inoculate through 1 hole (usualy near the lids center) & swivel the syringe to point the direction to squirt spore solution, without extracting the syringe until I have 5 squirts into differing area's (1 center, 1 in each corner).

By swiveling the syringe needle 360 degree's inside the jar, you don't repeatedly withdraw it & expose it to open air (possible contaminates), then when you do withdraw the needle, you immediatly tape over the hole you inoculated through with alc swabbed tape.

That covers the needle hole through the tyvek under the lid (1st hole) & leaves the second hole in the lid for gas exchange through the tyvek underneath.


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: agar]
    #4307248 - 06/17/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

agar, im suprised your still doing multispores. i thought someone of your skill would be innocing with LC's or G2G's.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: yousuck]
    #4307356 - 06/17/05 01:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Using LC's and G2G often, wouldnt mean youd want to totally eliminate doing MSIs.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4307505 - 06/17/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I always start new strains with a multispore to 3 1qt jars and the rest to some LC's just to get the ball rollin. Those 3qts will provide plenty of spawn for quite some time with G2G's.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: Hotnuts]
    #4307510 - 06/17/05 02:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hotnutz said:
I always start new strains with a multispore to 3 1qt jars and the rest to some LC's just to get the ball rollin. Those 3qts will provide plenty of spawn for quite some time with G2G's.




Exactly what I do..sometimes even only 2 quart jars..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4308979 - 06/17/05 10:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Years ago I failed with rye time and time again because I didn't have a way to shake without the grains touching the polyfiber that I used to stuff the top hole. If you can't keep the filter material exposed to the outside from touching the grain during the shake, then I wouldn't shake at all. Even when using spawn bags I think one should try to keep the grains from touching the filter patch when mixed up.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: SHAKING WBS/RYE JARS -- WHEN & WHY [Re: yousuck]
    #4309015 - 06/17/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

yousuck said:
agar, im suprised your still doing multispores. i thought someone of your skill would be innocing with LC's or G2G's.




Only time I do multispore, is when a new strain comers along in print form. Even then, I usualy take a part of it to agar - to clean it up. I have been using G2G, LC's, tissue isolates & agar isolates for years.


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