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Offlinescatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr)
    #4303599 - 06/16/05 12:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ok...I'm a little upset that half my babies just kicked the bucket. I had fermentation before on another half batch, and I believe it was the ones that got to hot during incubation and they all might have been a bit wetter then optimal. Last batch though...I was carful to mix it up just right water content...and they were stuck in a room temp closet (70-80) with no form of heat...we arent talking big trays either...3-4 pounders or so like 8inx11in. I had a bunch stacked up after spawning them in the closet.

Well I think I figured out what happened...and another problem with fermentation. I know at least one other person was interested in fermentation problems so I figured I'd post this...it was lack of gas exchange this time. I'm not 100% sure, because it was done in two pots, and its just enough to have been done in one so MAYBE I screwed up the pot..but I keep a close watch with a digital thermometer...and the thing that really got me was the growth.

Sorry I'm rambling so much, had to take some  :bong: rips to deal with my  :mad2: at myself. So I spawned the poo late, and had stacked up like 10 of those casings on top of eachother (turning each sideways)...well I didnt remember to put holes in the aluminum foil and didnt feel like unstacking those (just spent about 7 hours nonstop mushroom work) so I stuck a few holes along the sides that were open to me, with the intention of checking them all tomorrow and adding new holes. The rest that were in the closet not stacked up like that (12 gallon dish pans) all got the normal holes.

So like usual, I forgot about them for about 6 days, and I go to pull them out. There was no smell noticable in the closet either as there was the last time they fermented..last time there was plenty of gas exchange on the containers that fermented, so I didnt even smell it at first. Cased all the good ones then got to the stack and remembered about the holes...well heres some pictures of the shit (smells like shit now)..

Ok got camera working..heres the containers that I'm talking about..you probably cant see, but theres holes on the left side of the right container:

Same thing with the foil removed:


They mostly look like that, or crappier. This one had the holes on the left and right side:

And I'm hoping to save whats good on it. Its not a contamination so I dont need to worry about it spreading.


All the casings that were fermented were very warm when I picked them up, especially in the center, so warm that I knew they were screwed when I picked them up, even though they didnt smell...of course the only holes in the tin foil was above the stuff that didnt smell bad. When I opened the foil though, they smelled like complete shit.

Not all of them did well even on the side where there were holes. Especially the two pan cyans..they didnt grow anywhere really..lost a good 20 pounds of substrate between those 2 and the 6 cubies and lots of spawn. Two crap batches in a row :frown: Hate it when this happens..but yeah I'm gonna go work on getting the picture up...sorry for rambling :smile: :rasta:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Edited by scatmanrav (06/16/05 12:51 PM)


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Invisiblekorins
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Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 221
Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4303747 - 06/16/05 01:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry about your loss Scat, but thanks for making it a learning experience for all of us.

Excellent post! :thumbup:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4303935 - 06/16/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Scat, What's Up? Thanks for sharing that with us. I know how you feel. Just lost 5 "big" poo trays myself. 15-20 pounders. Temp. was a big part of my problem. I have mine at room temp. now also. When I went to check on my last batch I encountered the same thing. Those babies were almost hot to the touch. Especially the big ones. The small ones, in a coffee can were fine. I guess those big poo casing's really generate a lot of heat. Will keep an eye on gas exchange also. Wonder if it's gas exchange as much as it mught be heat escape. The holes would let some heat escape, don't you think. Glad shit is free,lol.

Good Luck with your new batch.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4304026 - 06/16/05 02:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

sorry to hear about that-

oddly, i have yet to experience any fermentation problems.
i usually incubate, too.
5 lbs usually winds up being less than 3 inches deep in the tubs i use.

after reading both mark's and your post, and seeing :flowerchild:'s response,
i'm beginning to wonder why i've been getting off so easily.

one rule of thumb that i have when wringing my poo, before pasturizing it, is that you probably won't find yourself with too little h2o content.

and you've all heard
Quote:

the majority of bulk failures result from too much moisture


^not verbatim

:strokebeard: <perplexed


--------------------




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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: psilocyben]
    #4304051 - 06/16/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

My poo is anywhere from 6-8 inches deep and can weight up to 30 pounds a casing. I believe these produce a lot of heat. My smaller casing's that were in the same room were O.K. I know my water content was fine because I hand squeeze each handful of poo. I didn't have any problems with my smaller one's either.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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InvisibleQuiescence
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Posts: 315
Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4304067 - 06/16/05 02:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am new to the poo(my friend turned up with some).. so I have a question about fermentation. All 3 of my first trays had the vinegar .. somewhat shitty smell to them. So I made a little box of tinfoil and put some damp-rid in it. Then left it in the tubs for a day or so. Plus I wiped the sides and lid down with a clean rag to get rid of condesation. Now all of the trays smell fine and are growing nicely.

They were all too wet... and I don't think the poo was properly leeched of its ammonia.. yet they are all doing fine now. I guess my question is what happened with yours that made it a lost cause? Mine are almost done now... and I did them all wrong...

So when do you know they are 'dead'?

~Quiescence~


--------------------
God raised up the fellow who was relaxed in the company of tax collectors, prostitutes and other outsiders, and went on to say that many of them would be welcomed to God?s banquet table long before those self-righteous people on display at church.


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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4304071 - 06/16/05 02:43 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

that was my only thought-
depth.

have a deeper one going- (5in)
should be interesting to see if a problem occurs at 80F
:zoom:


--------------------




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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Quiescence]
    #4304216 - 06/16/05 03:10 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

With mine it was the smell and the fact that the colonized WBS I sprinkled on the top was dead.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4305292 - 06/16/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I can tell....look at those pictures...thats 6 days after spawning...they were shitted...

>Wonder if it's gas exchange as much as it mught be heat escape.

I had the same thoughts..but I think it is gas exchange. They werent hot ever really...the other casings in the closet werent hot..so I dont think heat was being held in, what I think, is the fermentation created extra heat..so the heat was the effect, not the cause in this case.

I feel a little better about my losses now :smile: I just hate losing that shit, and I'm running low on poo poo so its just a fucker...but yeah...just make sure you give your poo the gas exchange it needs...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305332 - 06/16/05 07:55 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

That last pic is exactly what mine looked like, uncolonized spot in center. Have you tried doing anything with them? I have one I cased with a thinner casing layer, not expecting too many flushes, if any,lol. Did this 3 days ago. Have mycelium starting to poke through. Who knows. That poo is some work.

I really think heat, 83-84 degrees, was my downfall. Combined with the size of some of mine. The small one's survived. Larger were lost.
Smaller ones didn't produce near as much internal heat, I believe that saved them.

Good post. I think a lot of peeps are going thru similiar "shit" or will be soon. Or not hopefully.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305376 - 06/16/05 08:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting problem, definitely too much water. I'd put the moisture content above the heat issue. How much do you guys squeeze your poo out? I hand squeeze poo over a basin until 1-2 drops run out at the very most. Incubating at a variety of temperatures (even large tubs at 85F) I've never encountered this. Not to say heat isn't the culprit, I'd just place it low on the list. The center of that uncolonized tray you posted looks like a swamp. I'm steering more towards the dry side these days to avoid stalls in colonization, and it works wonders.


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4305381 - 06/16/05 08:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"I really think heat, 83-84 degrees, was my downfall. Combined with the size of some of mine. The small one's survived. Larger were lost.
Smaller ones didn't produce near as much internal heat, I believe that saved them."

Thats what happened to me the first time...

>Have you tried doing anything with them?

The first batch stunk to bad..I cooled them off and tried to get them to colonize..didnt work...so I pitched them. These I pitched too since they all are mostly crap...except the bottom one with the spot in the center. Thats what they all looked like the first time too..which is why I know it was heat too (the ceneter of the substrates hotter of course) but this time the al colonized under the air holes only...I'll break up everything healthy in the bottom pictured one and put it in a different container and case it tonight or tomorrow morning..or maybe just dig it out...have to see whats under there first.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305407 - 06/16/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)


I cover spawned h/poo with cling wrap.

Then take a sanatized box cutter blade & slit the cling wrap - about 1/3 the trays length, then fold the edges of the cling wrap back about 3/4 inch wide - the length of the slit.

Then, apply 2 inch wide micropore tape over the slit.

This will retain moisture, but allows for a LOT of gas exchange - during incubation.


--------------------


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
    #4305439 - 06/16/05 08:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Lately I've been wondering about the benefits of gas exchange during incubation. If only the exposed surface of a bulk tray is receiving gas/air exchange, what's going on with the rest of the substrate? Any info to suggest that any mass except for the top 1/4" or so is benefiting from gas exchange?

Any thoughts/experiences?


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305452 - 06/16/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It's not pretty Scat,lol.

Good Luck.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Holydiver]
    #4305472 - 06/16/05 08:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It will only exchange gas/moisture as conditions permit.
I don't provide fresh air exchange, just a provision for it to breath or sweat as it wants.

Giving it a wide provision to do so - also allows for RAPID HEAT DISSIPATION.
IF it generates excess or spikes wildly.


--------------------


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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Holydiver]
    #4306076 - 06/16/05 11:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:zoom:
Quote:

Diver said:
  I'm steering more towards the dry side these days to avoid stalls in colonization, and it works wonders. 



:yesnod:


--------------------




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InvisibleThumpaCap
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: psilocyben]
    #4306132 - 06/16/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

bummer.... maybe just laying foil over it as opposed to covering and sealing with foil would be better...  :shrug: ...  like just lay it on top and just bend down the edges to create a "roof"


--------------------
:bongload: Look into my heyes !! :bongload:


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: ThumpaCap]
    #4306748 - 06/17/05 05:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I've been out of town for a few days now... just got the chance to hop on real quick.

I feel your pain scat. Fermentation is the biggest battle for me as of late with these big ass h/poo tubs.

Even when they don't ferment, the bottom of the some of the tubs take FOREVER to colonize. Others have done perfect.

The last few tubs have been DRY. I mean when I give them a squeeze the don't drip at all, but make a nice "squish" sound.

When I get home I'll see how they look. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed.

At least there has been a few posts on the problem as of late. Agar had a really informative post. Blue Helix also had a good one in advanced cult.
Scat, your posts helps bring another possible culprit to the table, thanks for sharing.

1. wetness
2. temperature
3. gas exchange
4. freshness of poo

It's tricky staying on top of all these factors, especially now that summer has rolled around. But at least the h/poo has seldom contamed..... fermentation has really proved to be the obstacle to overcome.... at least for me.

Until I get back in town.

Mark


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: mushroommark]
    #4307154 - 06/17/05 10:13 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You guys KNOW what I think, but I'll say it again: in my super limited experience with fermentation in horse poo, if you don't soak your manure in free water during pasteurization through a free soaking process, you run a higher risk of fermentation problems unless the poo is so old that is was growing weeds out of it in the field. scatmanrav and agar are about the only two around here that don't free soak their manure during pasteurization and pour off those gallons of nitrogen-rich black tea. Those two seem to know how to grow, so I gave it a try a couple weeks back. Now I have grown on poo at least 15 times without a fermentation issues of any type until I tried to just moisten the poo and pasteurize in an oven. As soon as I did that, BOOM! I had fermentation big time and for the first time. That poo was the same poo that I'd been using with success all those times before and suddenly it didn't work when I tried to moisten and heat without the soak. It could have been a coincidence, but I don't think so.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4307184 - 06/17/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, and by the way, the more poo you use, the more bags you might need to make sure that poo has access to the water in the soak. If you suddenly are using 80 pounds of moisten horse poo, that's fine, but make yourself three bags rather than cramming it in one big bag. You can use those cement bags that cost about 50 cents at the hardware store, or you can just use and re-use those $1 cloth clothes washing bags at Walmart. Whatever you use, don't load the bags beyond 30 pounds or so a bag. If they are too loaded, the center will heat slowly, they are hard and maybe even dangerous to handle, and you don't get free water to the center as much which can give you the fermentation problems again. You want that water to carry that excessive black crap out of your poo.

PS - And one last thing: I am not trying to say I am as experienced as agar or scatmanrav in growing. I've been growing mushrooms a long time, and I've had my glory days, my teks (under other aliases), and my failures. Without a known strain a lab-like conditions, we all will have our failures from time to time. That's why professional growers--and I do know a couple--spend the big bucks on clean rooms, to eliminate all failure.


Edited by Blue Helix (06/17/05 10:25 AM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4307353 - 06/17/05 11:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

>I am not trying to say I am as experienced as agar or scatmanrav in growing

This kinda makes me chuckle :smile:

I've only been reading about growing mushrooms since my reg date...my one year growing, is comming up next month :smile: Of course its been nonstop...a batch or three a week (depending on ambition) and large batches most times...which is where I got all my experience from. Still though, I havnt been growing for to long..

I'm seeing what your saying BH, but I've done every batch like this and it comes out fine everytime I dont screw something up. Twice I have and twice I failed...however what your lasts posts made me think, is maybe even if I were to screw things up, the poo might be even more forgiving (which it already is pretty damn forgiving) if I were to do it open water method.

There are more then just me and agar BTW who dont pasteurize in water then ring out after...I know of a number of people who get the water content correct, and then pasteurize..be it oven or PP bags in water. I do beleive agar started the trend though..many have success from it...but I'm looking back now at HippieChick, Mark, and a few others who do the same (water content right first, then pasteurize) and we seem to be the ones with the fermentation.

I wonder how TN Stud pasturizers there shit? Since it comes pre pasturized in bags, it would lead me to believe its done that way too...and look at all those with success with their product?

Interesting though...I'll be keeping this in mind...I may decide to try out free water pasteurization. It would make that process easier...but the spawning process would be more of a bitch..thats why I never did try that method...the way I do it now works with my system, I hate changing components of my system to much..but hrm...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinemushroommark
Earning mybluethumb

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 359
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4307522 - 06/17/05 12:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
from it...but I'm looking back now at HippieChick, Mark, and a few others who do the same (water content right first, then pasteurize) and we seem to be the ones with the fermentation.





That's a good point you bring up scat.

But remember, I am also rinsing my h/poo with a LARGE amount of water before loading it into the turkey tins for dry pasteurizing:



This should be roughly equivalent to the large amount of black water poured down the drain after an open soak.
I have done this every batch. Catch is the reason I have done it every batch is because every batch stinks like shit after I am done soaking it for a few hours: obviously the poo is still too fresh.

I'm still not sure what to make of everything. For me, I still think I really need to find a source of weathered h/poo instead of the obviously too fresh stuff I've been using.

And the way the center of the bottom of the bins doesn't colonize at all leads me to believe temp comes into play. With these clear bins you can see all the WBS all around the bottom, it is mixed in really well, it just never takes off growing. It just dies right where it lays.

Similar to the top of your bin in the pic, scat.

Just a few more thoughts to mull over.... until I'm back around

Mark


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: mushroommark]
    #4308808 - 06/17/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am trying to figure out if the problems here is actual "fermentation", or something else.

I?m not having this problem & wonder why not.

This I know in regards to composting & substrates, incomplete composting leaves nutrients susceptible to a high degree of bacterial activity, increasing bacterial activity generates heat, the larger the mass, the more heat usually generated , short fiber substrate (such as horse manure) when compacted increases the odds of anaerobic (without oxegen) conditions within the substrate, excess moisture displaces oxygen leading towards anaerobic conditions, anaerobic conditions often result in fermentation.

So, if the problem is fermentation, it would appear (in some instances) that the horse manure being used is alive with considerable amount bacterial activity (fairly fresh), which generates heat as it becomes more active , larger substrate mass generates more heat, (in some cases) excess moisture displaces oxygen present in the substrate (in some cases) resulting in anaerobic conditions, (in some cases) causing fermentation of the substrate.

The cure is the difficult thing to find. I would suggest any horse manure used as substrate be thoroughly soaked, screened, washed, rinsed & dried - prior to use. This would remove any remaining ammonia, reduce bacteria / microbial activity, remove excessive nutrients that cause bacterial blooms.

Then - when pasteurizing the pre-processed horse manure, insure the end product is not to moist (around 70% moisture capacity), then - insure that it is not COMPACTED in any way when spawn is added, then insure the spawned substrate is not exposed to high incubation temperatures & insure the substrate container has provisions for adequate gas exchange.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4308866 - 06/17/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Scatmanrav, experience and length of time growing are not well coupled. If one suddenly starts growing pounds a week, they'll become highly experienced in a very short length of time.

As for screwing things up, I have noticed that a lot of people blame a lot of the wrong reasons for their trouble. It's amazing how many times I've asked about my casing penetration problem and how infrequently I get the simple answer, "Give it another week" or "Is your fresh air super dampened like through pin holes?" Instead people will jump to moisture content or pH. I guess I am rambling, but what I am trying to say is that just because something is popular, doesn't mean it works. There are a lot of people on here that call 30 mushrooms a square foot their first flush a good flush... we both know better than that so how can you take advice from those kind of people if they don't even know what the goal is.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4308901 - 06/17/05 07:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

agar, if I did all the things you just recommended, I would not have had the fermentation problem. I can count about three violations:

1) The poo was not soaked or rinsed in any way. Normally my hot water pasteurization would have acted like a powerful washing.

2) The poo was slightly compacted which probably drastically increased anaerobic tendances in the 5" substrate. I always have done this before.

3) The spawn was loaded into highly-insulated 12-quart containers which would have kept any self-generated heat in the container. I often insulate.

4) For the first time, I used pin-hole-poked suran wrap over the top of the container which would have decreased oxygen to the surface and increased the internal temperature.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4308935 - 06/17/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

>>>>>>>>>>4) For the first time, I used pin-hole-poked suran wrap over the top of the container which would have decreased oxygen to the surface and increased the internal temperature. <<<<<<<<

What did you do - before.

I will see if I can dig up an old picture of huge horse manure / compost substrates (70/90 lbs)in 36X28X8 inch mortor mix tubs.

I just covered those with spunbonded polyester landscape cloth, which you could blow right through - with ease.

Those colonized like wildfire with rhizo's big as wiggly red worms.

EDIT - to add picture.




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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
    #4309076 - 06/17/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I used to have 1/4" holes drilled all around the huge 50-gallon tub which served as the fruiting chamber. That worked great for the spawn run. I think the longest a spawn run ever took was 8 days, but when it came to casing colonization, I often stalled. If you introduce that much fresh air at casing colonization, the mycelium can easily kick out of vegetaive growth--at least that is my current theory on what had been going on with the casing stalls.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4309151 - 06/17/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't introduce, or induce any fresh air exchange. Incubation was in darkness, still air & without any drafts. Only gas exchange would be caused heat rising from the substrate through the landscape cloth.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
    #4309390 - 06/17/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well the poo I had, you know exactly what it looked and smelled like...there was moisture on the bag it came it..and white did grow over a few nugs now and then...appeared cobwebish in growth, but white..I'm assuming firefang..then preped by soaking and breaking up...I dont heat it up in a pot...but I use hot water added...mix everything around and let it and the coir and straw hydrate...drain most of it off and add the verm..bag it and cook it for 3 hours..the top of the water where I stick the thermometer in is usually around 165-170..I keep the top at the lower end, figure the bottoms a bit warmer.

And so far I've only had probably 5-10% of my poo ferment..probably closer to the 5% side...but its a couple of big batches at once that affect things..But all of them stacked up like they were probably helped with the heat, even though each casing was small in size..and then only getting gas exchange from 3 or 4 pin holes on a side of the casing sped it up. Normally, I use about 20 pin holes on a little casing like that spread out..not much but still has been enough everytime, except the previous batch which probably heated over 90 degrees for 24 hours (air temp) and they were probably 8 pounders or so..those are the only two though and it was the two sets only..


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Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4319547 - 06/21/05 01:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I believe I found the culprit for my horse poo fermentation. This is very embarrassing, but I no longer believe it was the method of pasteurization. I now firmly believe it was due to core temperatures getting way too high. It's a long story but basically, I was using a heat-reflective bubble wrap snugly tailored to the outside of these 12-quart containers IN COMBINATION with plastic wrap. I had never used this combination, and I was not monitoring core temperatures either. Some testing on other situations with these conditions have lead me to believe that the core likely reached 95F or even higher. At those high temperatures, the bed likely went anaerobic since it only had tiny pin holes to breath, and the result was the fermentation.


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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4319887 - 06/21/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Awsome, kinda...at least now this thing is a little more understood.....


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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