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Blue Helix
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Registered: 02/02/03
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Last seen: 6 months, 17 days
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4307184 - 06/17/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh, and by the way, the more poo you use, the more bags you might need to make sure that poo has access to the water in the soak. If you suddenly are using 80 pounds of moisten horse poo, that's fine, but make yourself three bags rather than cramming it in one big bag. You can use those cement bags that cost about 50 cents at the hardware store, or you can just use and re-use those $1 cloth clothes washing bags at Walmart. Whatever you use, don't load the bags beyond 30 pounds or so a bag. If they are too loaded, the center will heat slowly, they are hard and maybe even dangerous to handle, and you don't get free water to the center as much which can give you the fermentation problems again. You want that water to carry that excessive black crap out of your poo.
PS - And one last thing: I am not trying to say I am as experienced as agar or scatmanrav in growing. I've been growing mushrooms a long time, and I've had my glory days, my teks (under other aliases), and my failures. Without a known strain a lab-like conditions, we all will have our failures from time to time. That's why professional growers--and I do know a couple--spend the big bucks on clean rooms, to eliminate all failure.
Edited by Blue Helix (06/17/05 10:25 AM)
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scatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4307353 - 06/17/05 11:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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>I am not trying to say I am as experienced as agar or scatmanrav in growing
This kinda makes me chuckle 
I've only been reading about growing mushrooms since my reg date...my one year growing, is comming up next month Of course its been nonstop...a batch or three a week (depending on ambition) and large batches most times...which is where I got all my experience from. Still though, I havnt been growing for to long..
I'm seeing what your saying BH, but I've done every batch like this and it comes out fine everytime I dont screw something up. Twice I have and twice I failed...however what your lasts posts made me think, is maybe even if I were to screw things up, the poo might be even more forgiving (which it already is pretty damn forgiving) if I were to do it open water method.
There are more then just me and agar BTW who dont pasteurize in water then ring out after...I know of a number of people who get the water content correct, and then pasteurize..be it oven or PP bags in water. I do beleive agar started the trend though..many have success from it...but I'm looking back now at HippieChick, Mark, and a few others who do the same (water content right first, then pasteurize) and we seem to be the ones with the fermentation.
I wonder how TN Stud pasturizers there shit? Since it comes pre pasturized in bags, it would lead me to believe its done that way too...and look at all those with success with their product?
Interesting though...I'll be keeping this in mind...I may decide to try out free water pasteurization. It would make that process easier...but the spawning process would be more of a bitch..thats why I never did try that method...the way I do it now works with my system, I hate changing components of my system to much..but hrm...
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mushroommark
Earning mybluethumb

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 359
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
#4307522 - 06/17/05 12:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
scatmanrav said: from it...but I'm looking back now at HippieChick, Mark, and a few others who do the same (water content right first, then pasteurize) and we seem to be the ones with the fermentation.
That's a good point you bring up scat.
But remember, I am also rinsing my h/poo with a LARGE amount of water before loading it into the turkey tins for dry pasteurizing:

This should be roughly equivalent to the large amount of black water poured down the drain after an open soak. I have done this every batch. Catch is the reason I have done it every batch is because every batch stinks like shit after I am done soaking it for a few hours: obviously the poo is still too fresh.
I'm still not sure what to make of everything. For me, I still think I really need to find a source of weathered h/poo instead of the obviously too fresh stuff I've been using.
And the way the center of the bottom of the bins doesn't colonize at all leads me to believe temp comes into play. With these clear bins you can see all the WBS all around the bottom, it is mixed in really well, it just never takes off growing. It just dies right where it lays.
Similar to the top of your bin in the pic, scat.
Just a few more thoughts to mull over.... until I'm back around
Mark
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agar
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Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: mushroommark]
#4308808 - 06/17/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am trying to figure out if the problems here is actual "fermentation", or something else.
I?m not having this problem & wonder why not.
This I know in regards to composting & substrates, incomplete composting leaves nutrients susceptible to a high degree of bacterial activity, increasing bacterial activity generates heat, the larger the mass, the more heat usually generated , short fiber substrate (such as horse manure) when compacted increases the odds of anaerobic (without oxegen) conditions within the substrate, excess moisture displaces oxygen leading towards anaerobic conditions, anaerobic conditions often result in fermentation.
So, if the problem is fermentation, it would appear (in some instances) that the horse manure being used is alive with considerable amount bacterial activity (fairly fresh), which generates heat as it becomes more active , larger substrate mass generates more heat, (in some cases) excess moisture displaces oxygen present in the substrate (in some cases) resulting in anaerobic conditions, (in some cases) causing fermentation of the substrate.
The cure is the difficult thing to find. I would suggest any horse manure used as substrate be thoroughly soaked, screened, washed, rinsed & dried - prior to use. This would remove any remaining ammonia, reduce bacteria / microbial activity, remove excessive nutrients that cause bacterial blooms.
Then - when pasteurizing the pre-processed horse manure, insure the end product is not to moist (around 70% moisture capacity), then - insure that it is not COMPACTED in any way when spawn is added, then insure the spawned substrate is not exposed to high incubation temperatures & insure the substrate container has provisions for adequate gas exchange.
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Blue Helix
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Registered: 02/02/03
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Last seen: 6 months, 17 days
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
#4308866 - 06/17/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Scatmanrav, experience and length of time growing are not well coupled. If one suddenly starts growing pounds a week, they'll become highly experienced in a very short length of time.
As for screwing things up, I have noticed that a lot of people blame a lot of the wrong reasons for their trouble. It's amazing how many times I've asked about my casing penetration problem and how infrequently I get the simple answer, "Give it another week" or "Is your fresh air super dampened like through pin holes?" Instead people will jump to moisture content or pH. I guess I am rambling, but what I am trying to say is that just because something is popular, doesn't mean it works. There are a lot of people on here that call 30 mushrooms a square foot their first flush a good flush... we both know better than that so how can you take advice from those kind of people if they don't even know what the goal is.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4308901 - 06/17/05 07:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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agar, if I did all the things you just recommended, I would not have had the fermentation problem. I can count about three violations:
1) The poo was not soaked or rinsed in any way. Normally my hot water pasteurization would have acted like a powerful washing.
2) The poo was slightly compacted which probably drastically increased anaerobic tendances in the 5" substrate. I always have done this before.
3) The spawn was loaded into highly-insulated 12-quart containers which would have kept any self-generated heat in the container. I often insulate.
4) For the first time, I used pin-hole-poked suran wrap over the top of the container which would have decreased oxygen to the surface and increased the internal temperature.
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agar
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Registered: 11/21/04
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4308935 - 06/17/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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>>>>>>>>>>4) For the first time, I used pin-hole-poked suran wrap over the top of the container which would have decreased oxygen to the surface and increased the internal temperature. <<<<<<<<
What did you do - before.
I will see if I can dig up an old picture of huge horse manure / compost substrates (70/90 lbs)in 36X28X8 inch mortor mix tubs.
I just covered those with spunbonded polyester landscape cloth, which you could blow right through - with ease.
Those colonized like wildfire with rhizo's big as wiggly red worms.
EDIT - to add picture.

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Blue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
#4309076 - 06/17/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I used to have 1/4" holes drilled all around the huge 50-gallon tub which served as the fruiting chamber. That worked great for the spawn run. I think the longest a spawn run ever took was 8 days, but when it came to casing colonization, I often stalled. If you introduce that much fresh air at casing colonization, the mycelium can easily kick out of vegetaive growth--at least that is my current theory on what had been going on with the casing stalls.
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agar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4309151 - 06/17/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I didn't introduce, or induce any fresh air exchange. Incubation was in darkness, still air & without any drafts. Only gas exchange would be caused heat rising from the substrate through the landscape cloth.
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scatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
#4309390 - 06/17/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well the poo I had, you know exactly what it looked and smelled like...there was moisture on the bag it came it..and white did grow over a few nugs now and then...appeared cobwebish in growth, but white..I'm assuming firefang..then preped by soaking and breaking up...I dont heat it up in a pot...but I use hot water added...mix everything around and let it and the coir and straw hydrate...drain most of it off and add the verm..bag it and cook it for 3 hours..the top of the water where I stick the thermometer in is usually around 165-170..I keep the top at the lower end, figure the bottoms a bit warmer.
And so far I've only had probably 5-10% of my poo ferment..probably closer to the 5% side...but its a couple of big batches at once that affect things..But all of them stacked up like they were probably helped with the heat, even though each casing was small in size..and then only getting gas exchange from 3 or 4 pin holes on a side of the casing sped it up. Normally, I use about 20 pin holes on a little casing like that spread out..not much but still has been enough everytime, except the previous batch which probably heated over 90 degrees for 24 hours (air temp) and they were probably 8 pounders or so..those are the only two though and it was the two sets only..
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Blue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
#4319547 - 06/21/05 01:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I believe I found the culprit for my horse poo fermentation. This is very embarrassing, but I no longer believe it was the method of pasteurization. I now firmly believe it was due to core temperatures getting way too high. It's a long story but basically, I was using a heat-reflective bubble wrap snugly tailored to the outside of these 12-quart containers IN COMBINATION with plastic wrap. I had never used this combination, and I was not monitoring core temperatures either. Some testing on other situations with these conditions have lead me to believe that the core likely reached 95F or even higher. At those high temperatures, the bed likely went anaerobic since it only had tiny pin holes to breath, and the result was the fermentation.
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scatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Blue Helix]
#4319887 - 06/21/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Awsome, kinda...at least now this thing is a little more understood.....
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