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Offlinescatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr)
    #4303599 - 06/16/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ok...I'm a little upset that half my babies just kicked the bucket. I had fermentation before on another half batch, and I believe it was the ones that got to hot during incubation and they all might have been a bit wetter then optimal. Last batch though...I was carful to mix it up just right water content...and they were stuck in a room temp closet (70-80) with no form of heat...we arent talking big trays either...3-4 pounders or so like 8inx11in. I had a bunch stacked up after spawning them in the closet.

Well I think I figured out what happened...and another problem with fermentation. I know at least one other person was interested in fermentation problems so I figured I'd post this...it was lack of gas exchange this time. I'm not 100% sure, because it was done in two pots, and its just enough to have been done in one so MAYBE I screwed up the pot..but I keep a close watch with a digital thermometer...and the thing that really got me was the growth.

Sorry I'm rambling so much, had to take some  :bong: rips to deal with my  :mad2: at myself. So I spawned the poo late, and had stacked up like 10 of those casings on top of eachother (turning each sideways)...well I didnt remember to put holes in the aluminum foil and didnt feel like unstacking those (just spent about 7 hours nonstop mushroom work) so I stuck a few holes along the sides that were open to me, with the intention of checking them all tomorrow and adding new holes. The rest that were in the closet not stacked up like that (12 gallon dish pans) all got the normal holes.

So like usual, I forgot about them for about 6 days, and I go to pull them out. There was no smell noticable in the closet either as there was the last time they fermented..last time there was plenty of gas exchange on the containers that fermented, so I didnt even smell it at first. Cased all the good ones then got to the stack and remembered about the holes...well heres some pictures of the shit (smells like shit now)..

Ok got camera working..heres the containers that I'm talking about..you probably cant see, but theres holes on the left side of the right container:

Same thing with the foil removed:


They mostly look like that, or crappier. This one had the holes on the left and right side:

And I'm hoping to save whats good on it. Its not a contamination so I dont need to worry about it spreading.


All the casings that were fermented were very warm when I picked them up, especially in the center, so warm that I knew they were screwed when I picked them up, even though they didnt smell...of course the only holes in the tin foil was above the stuff that didnt smell bad. When I opened the foil though, they smelled like complete shit.

Not all of them did well even on the side where there were holes. Especially the two pan cyans..they didnt grow anywhere really..lost a good 20 pounds of substrate between those 2 and the 6 cubies and lots of spawn. Two crap batches in a row :frown: Hate it when this happens..but yeah I'm gonna go work on getting the picture up...sorry for rambling :smile: :rasta:


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Edited by scatmanrav (06/16/05 02:51 PM)


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Invisiblekorins
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4303747 - 06/16/05 03:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry about your loss Scat, but thanks for making it a learning experience for all of us.

Excellent post! :thumbup:


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4303935 - 06/16/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Scat, What's Up? Thanks for sharing that with us. I know how you feel. Just lost 5 "big" poo trays myself. 15-20 pounders. Temp. was a big part of my problem. I have mine at room temp. now also. When I went to check on my last batch I encountered the same thing. Those babies were almost hot to the touch. Especially the big ones. The small ones, in a coffee can were fine. I guess those big poo casing's really generate a lot of heat. Will keep an eye on gas exchange also. Wonder if it's gas exchange as much as it mught be heat escape. The holes would let some heat escape, don't you think. Glad shit is free,lol.

Good Luck with your new batch.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4304026 - 06/16/05 04:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

sorry to hear about that-

oddly, i have yet to experience any fermentation problems.
i usually incubate, too.
5 lbs usually winds up being less than 3 inches deep in the tubs i use.

after reading both mark's and your post, and seeing :flowerchild:'s response,
i'm beginning to wonder why i've been getting off so easily.

one rule of thumb that i have when wringing my poo, before pasturizing it, is that you probably won't find yourself with too little h2o content.

and you've all heard
Quote:

the majority of bulk failures result from too much moisture


^not verbatim

:strokebeard: <perplexed


--------------------




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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: psilocyben]
    #4304051 - 06/16/05 04:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

My poo is anywhere from 6-8 inches deep and can weight up to 30 pounds a casing. I believe these produce a lot of heat. My smaller casing's that were in the same room were O.K. I know my water content was fine because I hand squeeze each handful of poo. I didn't have any problems with my smaller one's either.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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InvisibleQuiescence
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Posts: 315
Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4304067 - 06/16/05 04:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I am new to the poo(my friend turned up with some).. so I have a question about fermentation. All 3 of my first trays had the vinegar .. somewhat shitty smell to them. So I made a little box of tinfoil and put some damp-rid in it. Then left it in the tubs for a day or so. Plus I wiped the sides and lid down with a clean rag to get rid of condesation. Now all of the trays smell fine and are growing nicely.

They were all too wet... and I don't think the poo was properly leeched of its ammonia.. yet they are all doing fine now. I guess my question is what happened with yours that made it a lost cause? Mine are almost done now... and I did them all wrong...

So when do you know they are 'dead'?

~Quiescence~


--------------------
God raised up the fellow who was relaxed in the company of tax collectors, prostitutes and other outsiders, and went on to say that many of them would be welcomed to God?s banquet table long before those self-righteous people on display at church.


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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4304071 - 06/16/05 04:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

that was my only thought-
depth.

have a deeper one going- (5in)
should be interesting to see if a problem occurs at 80F
:zoom:


--------------------




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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Quiescence]
    #4304216 - 06/16/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

With mine it was the smell and the fact that the colonized WBS I sprinkled on the top was dead.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4305292 - 06/16/05 09:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I can tell....look at those pictures...thats 6 days after spawning...they were shitted...

>Wonder if it's gas exchange as much as it mught be heat escape.

I had the same thoughts..but I think it is gas exchange. They werent hot ever really...the other casings in the closet werent hot..so I dont think heat was being held in, what I think, is the fermentation created extra heat..so the heat was the effect, not the cause in this case.

I feel a little better about my losses now :smile: I just hate losing that shit, and I'm running low on poo poo so its just a fucker...but yeah...just make sure you give your poo the gas exchange it needs...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305332 - 06/16/05 09:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That last pic is exactly what mine looked like, uncolonized spot in center. Have you tried doing anything with them? I have one I cased with a thinner casing layer, not expecting too many flushes, if any,lol. Did this 3 days ago. Have mycelium starting to poke through. Who knows. That poo is some work.

I really think heat, 83-84 degrees, was my downfall. Combined with the size of some of mine. The small one's survived. Larger were lost.
Smaller ones didn't produce near as much internal heat, I believe that saved them.

Good post. I think a lot of peeps are going thru similiar "shit" or will be soon. Or not hopefully.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305376 - 06/16/05 10:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting problem, definitely too much water. I'd put the moisture content above the heat issue. How much do you guys squeeze your poo out? I hand squeeze poo over a basin until 1-2 drops run out at the very most. Incubating at a variety of temperatures (even large tubs at 85F) I've never encountered this. Not to say heat isn't the culprit, I'd just place it low on the list. The center of that uncolonized tray you posted looks like a swamp. I'm steering more towards the dry side these days to avoid stalls in colonization, and it works wonders.


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: HippieChick]
    #4305381 - 06/16/05 10:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"I really think heat, 83-84 degrees, was my downfall. Combined with the size of some of mine. The small one's survived. Larger were lost.
Smaller ones didn't produce near as much internal heat, I believe that saved them."

Thats what happened to me the first time...

>Have you tried doing anything with them?

The first batch stunk to bad..I cooled them off and tried to get them to colonize..didnt work...so I pitched them. These I pitched too since they all are mostly crap...except the bottom one with the spot in the center. Thats what they all looked like the first time too..which is why I know it was heat too (the ceneter of the substrates hotter of course) but this time the al colonized under the air holes only...I'll break up everything healthy in the bottom pictured one and put it in a different container and case it tonight or tomorrow morning..or maybe just dig it out...have to see whats under there first.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305407 - 06/16/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)


I cover spawned h/poo with cling wrap.

Then take a sanatized box cutter blade & slit the cling wrap - about 1/3 the trays length, then fold the edges of the cling wrap back about 3/4 inch wide - the length of the slit.

Then, apply 2 inch wide micropore tape over the slit.

This will retain moisture, but allows for a LOT of gas exchange - during incubation.


--------------------


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: agar]
    #4305439 - 06/16/05 10:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Lately I've been wondering about the benefits of gas exchange during incubation. If only the exposed surface of a bulk tray is receiving gas/air exchange, what's going on with the rest of the substrate? Any info to suggest that any mass except for the top 1/4" or so is benefiting from gas exchange?

Any thoughts/experiences?


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4305452 - 06/16/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's not pretty Scat,lol.

Good Luck.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Holydiver]
    #4305472 - 06/16/05 10:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It will only exchange gas/moisture as conditions permit.
I don't provide fresh air exchange, just a provision for it to breath or sweat as it wants.

Giving it a wide provision to do so - also allows for RAPID HEAT DISSIPATION.
IF it generates excess or spikes wildly.


--------------------


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Offlinepsilocyben
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: Holydiver]
    #4306076 - 06/17/05 01:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:zoom:
Quote:

Diver said:
  I'm steering more towards the dry side these days to avoid stalls in colonization, and it works wonders. 



:yesnod:


--------------------




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InvisibleThumpaCap
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Registered: 02/19/05
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: psilocyben]
    #4306132 - 06/17/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

bummer.... maybe just laying foil over it as opposed to covering and sealing with foil would be better...  :shrug: ...  like just lay it on top and just bend down the edges to create a "roof"


--------------------
:bongload: Look into my heyes !! :bongload:


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: ThumpaCap]
    #4306748 - 06/17/05 07:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've been out of town for a few days now... just got the chance to hop on real quick.

I feel your pain scat. Fermentation is the biggest battle for me as of late with these big ass h/poo tubs.

Even when they don't ferment, the bottom of the some of the tubs take FOREVER to colonize. Others have done perfect.

The last few tubs have been DRY. I mean when I give them a squeeze the don't drip at all, but make a nice "squish" sound.

When I get home I'll see how they look. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed.

At least there has been a few posts on the problem as of late. Agar had a really informative post. Blue Helix also had a good one in advanced cult.
Scat, your posts helps bring another possible culprit to the table, thanks for sharing.

1. wetness
2. temperature
3. gas exchange
4. freshness of poo

It's tricky staying on top of all these factors, especially now that summer has rolled around. But at least the h/poo has seldom contamed..... fermentation has really proved to be the obstacle to overcome.... at least for me.

Until I get back in town.

Mark


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Hpoo fermentation and why (Grrrrrrrrrr) [Re: mushroommark]
    #4307154 - 06/17/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You guys KNOW what I think, but I'll say it again: in my super limited experience with fermentation in horse poo, if you don't soak your manure in free water during pasteurization through a free soaking process, you run a higher risk of fermentation problems unless the poo is so old that is was growing weeds out of it in the field. scatmanrav and agar are about the only two around here that don't free soak their manure during pasteurization and pour off those gallons of nitrogen-rich black tea. Those two seem to know how to grow, so I gave it a try a couple weeks back. Now I have grown on poo at least 15 times without a fermentation issues of any type until I tried to just moisten the poo and pasteurize in an oven. As soon as I did that, BOOM! I had fermentation big time and for the first time. That poo was the same poo that I'd been using with success all those times before and suddenly it didn't work when I tried to moisten and heat without the soak. It could have been a coincidence, but I don't think so.


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