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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo
    #4302555 - 06/16/05 04:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Terri Schiavo's autopsy revealed massive, catastrophic damage to the cerebral cortex where thought and awareness is processed, and particularly to the visual cortex where vision occurs, rendering the woman completely unaware of her surroundings and totally blind.

Terri Schiavo's mother commenting on these results: "I visited with Terri quite often and saw her interact with us and saw her follow us around the room with her eyes... I'm not contesting what the medical examiner said here, but there is a factor of observation."

Even in the face of overwhelming conclusive evidence to the contrary, she still insist that Terri was aware of, seeing, and interacting with them.

Why do so many people have such a need to believe what is not true?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (06/16/05 11:43 AM)


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OfflineNosferatuMan
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4302589 - 06/16/05 05:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Delusions are sometimes more comforting than any scientific evidence could ever provide?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: NosferatuMan]
    #4302593 - 06/16/05 05:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'd rather have a harsh truth than a comfy lie. Guess I'm weird...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNosferatuMan
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4302643 - 06/16/05 07:29 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Me too.

A lot of people prefer their emotional brains over their rationale. Like my Grandmother. I think it has a definite place for some people...not so much living a lie, a different viewpoint for people who can't cope with reality and all its uncompromising harshness.


Edited by NosferatuMan (06/16/05 08:27 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4302688 - 06/16/05 08:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

but would you rather have a comfy truth than a harsh lie?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 93,974
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4302849 - 06/16/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The whole thing seems like denial of death. Her fear  of that over rode everything else.

I thought the whole thing sick. :thumbdown: I felt her husband to be a strong man and committed, to go up against all of that. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4303585 - 06/16/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

She's worried about what things should have been, not with what things really are ...

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4303780 - 06/16/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"I'd rather have a harsh truth than a comfy lie"

What is so comfy about believing that a person was totally aware while they were starved to death slowly. Woudn't a lethal injection have been quicker and more dignified to the person's memory. In this case the truth was less harsh...but still too harsh. Starving terminally ill people is in poor taste.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblebwalker
The BodyElectric
Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 63
Loc: NJ, USA
Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4303951 - 06/16/05 04:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What is so comfy about believing that a person was totally aware while they were starved to death slowly. Woudn't a lethal injection have been quicker and more dignified to the person's memory. In this case the truth was less harsh...but still too harsh. Starving terminally ill people is in poor taste.




I agree, a lethal injection would have been far more humane. Unfortunately, in this society the law against murder trumps humane treatment. And as far as the judicial system would be concerned, any measures to end her life would have been considered murder. It's considered more "right" to let her die slowly on her own accord--even if that might entail suffering. Although, in this case, medical experts stated that Shiavo's brain was degenerated to the point where she could feel nothing anyway.

This reminds me of a case where a man was prosecuted for honoring his quadriplegic brother's wishes and shot him. The man had wanted to die for a long time and naturally had no legal recourse for assisted suicide. I'm sure all he needed was a psychologist to walk in and tell him to be thankful for being alive.

This moral and legal policy of "life at all costs" is short-sighted at best.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4303983 - 06/16/05 04:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The parents just wern't ready or able to accept and let go. Parents typically do not think of their children passing on before they do. They typically have a mindful of all they will see their children do before they die. In that sense, I understand, up to a point.

I would've needed 10 hours of denial and another 4 hours to come to acceptance and a place of letting go, not 8 years.

remember, her parents also had doctors telling them that she did have some form of awarness and THEY gave them something to hold on to. The medical community couldn't even unite on a diagnosis.

If more then one doctor gives you reason to hang on, I can see some doing it.

I would've let mine go, that was no life for any of them to be living for so long.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4304302 - 06/16/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The parents just wern't ready or able to accept and let go.

I know, and I feel for them, but look at the bigger picture and the harm their irrational beliefs caused.

Estrangement of the person Terri loved and married, untold financial resources spent on lawyers that could have been better spent on productive things for both families, emotional distress on both sides, involvement of our entire government, 15 years worth of wasted medical resources and a hospice bed that might have helped someone who could have benefited from it, and the list goes on...

Irrational beliefs, be they Terri's Parents' or as discussed in the recent Magic thread, are harmful. It's better to open your eyes and face the truth than it is to invent a fantasy and live in a lie.

If Terri's Parents' had done this 15 years ago when they were told that Terry was gone, they would have buried their daughter and moved on with their lives. Instead, they spent 15 years in the living hell of watching a chronically ill loved one loved one vegetate in bed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4304344 - 06/16/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

observation
-
overwhelming conclusive evidence to the contrary
=
what is not true?

:confused: :thumbup:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Gomp]
    #4304360 - 06/16/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

overwhelming conclusive evidence to the contrary
=
what is not true?


What part of the autopsy was not true?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Gomp]
    #4304379 - 06/16/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Gomp said:
observation
-
overwhelming conclusive evidence to the contrary
=
what is not true?

:confused: :thumbup:


--------------------


--------------------
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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Gomp]
    #4304392 - 06/16/05 05:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I see. So a brain resembling silly-putty isn't conclusive evidence that Terry was long gone. Alright...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4304415 - 06/16/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I see. So a brain resembling silly-putty isn't conclusive evidence that Terry was long gone. Alright...




lol..
:smile:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Gomp]
    #4304422 - 06/16/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Are you saying that her parents should subtract the current evidence from their observations and come to the conclusion (sum of the parts) that their beliefs were untrue??


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Gomp]
    #4304425 - 06/16/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
observation = observation
-
overwhelming conclusive evidence to the contrary = observation
=
what is not true? = observation

:confused: :thumbup:




Edited


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Offlinestarseed1066
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: bwalker]
    #4304450 - 06/16/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bwalker said:
I'm sure all he needed was a psychologist to walk in and tell him to be thankful for being alive.




i'm hoping that was sarcasm?


--------------------
Under his instruction, I taped drumsticks to his head and turned him into a sort of mummy, or perhaps a caterpiller in a cocoon. He remains this way for about three hours, making bizarre noises, pretending to be a new species that must learn to walk and talk and eat, etc. And he communicates with other life forms by way of the antennae on his head. Eventually we jam a tube from a waterbong into it's mouth and figure he's learned all he needs to know.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Desperately Clinging To The Irrational: Terri Schiavo [Re: Diploid]
    #4304537 - 06/16/05 06:26 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree. I said I would've worked through it in the first 24 hours I was told her brain was irreversibly toasted and looked for a humane way to let her die without watching her dehydrate and starve. Even if she would be in no pain dehydrating and starving, those who loved her would have a hard time watching it.

Lets look at the big picture. Science invented the feeding tube and liquid food that kept her alive.

The government established the laws that allowed for her parents to appeal Terri's husband request to pull the feeding tube.

Mother nature would've taken Teri in a matter of weeks. The intervention of science and government kept her alive for as long as she was. Technically, the parents could've wished the world for her and she would've died in weeks. Wishful thinking is not what kept Terri alive and taking up that bed. Science and the law kept her alive and taking up that bed.

You are not going to stop people from engaging wishful or hopeful thinking.....*billion of em out there. The way to attack it is through the government and law makers. Everything you brought up here and in the magical thinking thread traces back to laws that can enforce beliefs.

Without the enforcement of the law to back beliefs, beliefs themselves would be just that "thoughts we can't see".

Go back just 100 years and Terri would've been worm food in two weeks. Her parents would've been forced to accept it. Science and government law allowed for them to drag it out.

Lets look at who gave the hopeful wishful thinkers their power to keep her alive in that bed besides the science of feeding tubes. Jeb Bush, christian republican governor, law maker. I always vote independent.

This gets down to the BS of the separation of church and state. They are not separate.

Start voting Independent and start voting out of favor of political lobbying if you want to see the world move past this BS. You won't get rid of wishful or hopeful thinking. Jeb jumped in to kiss ass to the christian pro life supporters and lobbyist that funded his campaign and line his pockets. I think his pro life beliefs like Georges are bullshit too. 1,700 U.S. soldiers dead in the Iraq war. Pro life he is my ass.

Those two are all about greed and power.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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