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OfflinePsiloman
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"My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach
    #4294381 - 06/14/05 08:00 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

It seems to me that a reoccuring theme in General Questions is the periodical appearence of questions of many "newbies" if " X drug opens holes in your brain" or mentioning discussions with friends that when absence of neurotoxic effects of Y drug is mentioned people disbelieve.If sites as Erowid or Lycaeum are mentioned at best one can hear his friends dismiss them as "prodrug sites" meaning that they focus on propaganda of "drug abuse". Everyone has the right to believe what he/she wants but some facts are facts even if one chooses not to believe in them.

Another trend i have seen is "what information to point to my friends that disbelieve my Erowid Holy Book". I propose two alternatives with some explanation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed

http://www.usd oj.gov/dea/pubs/abuse/8-hallu.htm

The first is PubMed.It belongs to the National Library of medicine and collects abstracts and articles from peer reviewed magazines.Yes,its scientific and those guys there are NOT afraid to call a neurotoxin "neurotoxin" (destroying brain cells) but also are not hasty to name a compound neurotoxin.Pubmed is respected by many researchers and includes magazines with high impact factor.If one chooses to disbelieve articles found in Pubmed he should procure evidence originating from research ,its not something one can tackle by saying "they are wrong".For those not so familiar with how peer reviewed magazines work let me say that you submit your research and it is viewed by a scientific team,they usually sent it back with comments,and then you sent it back responding to those comments and claryfying your research.

Try its search engine.Put in keywords like Psilocybin or LSD or DMT and see if you can find any articles pointing to neurotoxicity. Also try 6-Oh-DA ( a known neurotoxin selectively attacking dopamine neurons) and see what Pubmed says about it.Its pretty clear dont you think? Keep in mind that this source is neutral to psychoactives,if not slightly biased against: What i mean is that it is easier for a peer reviewed magazine to publish the results of a study finding a psychoactive neurotoxic than a study showing it to be beneficial.This is of course "politics" behind it ,since noone wants to have funds witholded because they published a series of "Psychedelics are beneficial" articles.They wont lie ,but they will subject to big scrutiny every "positive article".

The second link i give is broken because it points to...DEA.COpy paste in your browser and remove the space.Yup,the Drug Enforcement Agency and its page on hallucinogens.IF there is evidence of damage the DEA,which uses propaganda, will capitalise on it in bold golden flying letters.After all their job is to justify their arrests and property seizures.Check the page. It says
Quote:

There is a considerable body of literature that links the use of some of the hallucinogenic substances to neuronal damage in animals, and recent data support that some hallucinogens are neurotoxic to humans. However, the most common danger of hallucinogen use is impaired judgment that often leads to rash decisions and accidents.




but if you read the page you notice that a) In hallucinogens it includes MDMA,PCP ,Ketamine and related substances (that is not 5HT-2a agonists,the classic hallucinogens) and b)THE ONLY MENTION OF NEUROTOXICITY IS ON THE MDMA PART. IF lsd or psilocybin produced neurotoxic effects it would be highlighted and bold by this antidrug organisation...But it isnt! If there were data on their neurotoxicity OF COURSE DEA WOULD INCLUDE THEM ,because this would empower them more having as an excuse that "they save the youth from brain damage of psilocybin".But no,they only support neurotoxicity on MDMA. That says something!
DEA also says
Quote:

However, taken in non-toxic dosages, these substances produce changes in perception, thought, and mood.


. Now ,if all of them where neurotoxic at the standard dose,how could they produce changes in mood perception and thought in...non-toxic doses?

See,what can be employed if one disbelieves the so called "prodrug sites" is the research of either scientific sites or even better the research of the ANTIDRUG temple which is DEA.There,its 100% sure that any negative effects present at a substance will be blown of proportion and given in a scary way.IF they are non-existent,then they wont be mentioned there since as much as DEA wants it wouldnt risk to make "fake data" at least on neurotoxicity issues.

There are many ways to approach a subject and many ,enjoyable ,ways to shock disbelievers.


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Offlineesin
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Psiloman]
    #4294414 - 06/14/05 08:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

My friend doesn't disbelieve Erowid, but that first link is very useful!

Thanks a bunch! :smile:


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: esin]
    #4294605 - 06/14/05 11:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, some dumbasses I know don't give any credit to sites like erowid or lycaeum, so I show them the bibliography, and pull up books and magazines to show them that it's true. The sources that they site are sometimes hard to find, but my mom's got shitloads of medical and nursing books, BOO YAH!!

It goes to show that the site's are very reputable, and any false information is quickly debunked. I always show them, then show them where they can site the information from because I won't defend the drugs. If they're going to believe in propadana, make them prove it to you. I'm sick of defending drugs or drug use. Great links, man. And great job breaking up the second link, direct links are a no-no. :wexican:


--------------------
When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops
maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop


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InvisibleTrav
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Psiloman]
    #4294677 - 06/14/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks man, real good post.  :thumbup:


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Offlineryanvergel
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Trav]
    #4294823 - 06/14/05 01:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Very nice post, perhpas add those links to the stickies?


--------------------
So it goes.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: ryanvergel]
    #4295816 - 06/14/05 07:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well,if its added to stickies its up to the mods...

Personally i dont consider my post as a "wow,ingenius" kind of post.I merely consider it as an alternative way of thinking for debunking false information and disbelief. Ok,pubmed is a usefull link be sure to bookmark it,you can find many articles from genetics to psychology.

The two alternative approaches i proposed are :

a)Search the body of scientific literature.This guys are not biased for drugs,maybe they are slightly biased against.They support everything with data.This is called hard evidence!

b)Search the literature of the "opponent",that is a modified chapter from the "art of war" everyone should posses.The logic behind it is that if there are the slightest bad effects or drawbacks the opponent will capitalize on them ,even distort them out of propotion.If the opponent doesnt provide such data,it simply means that no matter how furiously you search around there arent conclusive evidence suggesting what the opponent would have LOVED to suggest.

The first method is scientific,the second rhetorical.Combine them together and you have a mixture more dangerous than VX gas. Of course be sure to expect that idiots exist! I had some people even trying to disrespect Pubmed, saying that they dont know who put this webpage up.After showing them that its a govermental scientific page,they resorted to the argument that it is a page "promoting New World Order,supported propably by the Jewish Lobby and Sionism"...Pathetic!..I guess a PET scan on these people would expose large areas of their brains being inactive.Speaking about brain damage....


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Offlinewhatever123
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: browndustin]
    #4297316 - 06/15/05 12:49 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

browndustin said:
And great job breaking up the second link, direct links are a no-no. :wexican:





Why are direct links to the DEA a no-no?


--------------------
Koala Koolio said:
there should be a 3 month waiting period between registration and posting. :wink:


Edited by whatever123 (06/15/05 12:50 AM)


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Offlinerocknliam
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: whatever123]
    #4297898 - 06/15/05 03:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

whatever123 said:
Quote:

browndustin said:
And great job breaking up the second link, direct links are a no-no. :wexican:





Why are direct links to the DEA a no-no?




They can see a massive group of people comming from a site called "shroomery.org". I guess its just precaution, i could well be wrong.


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: rocknliam]
    #4298004 - 06/15/05 04:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No, rockn, you're very correct.

They can see what sort of traffic they get, most people can with their webhosting. And if they notice that people are clicking on links from shroomery.org, they may feel compelled to check the site out, especially if the number's increasingly noticeable. Most of us don't have anything too serious to hide, but we'd all like to keep things the way they are for the most part. I'm sure some jackass is skimming through this site, maybe more. But I think it may even be part of the forum rules to not do any direct linking to sites like that, it's been years since I've read them (But I have before).


--------------------
When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops
maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: browndustin]
    #4298197 - 06/15/05 06:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Personally i preffer NOT to link directly to Law enforcement or Drug enforcement agencies just in case! Two reasons mainly

1)The first is the obvious :Security reasons.
2)The second is that if they see lots of linking to a page they could modify its content restrict it or whatever...For example if one links to Microgram (DEA's newsletter with lot of info on seizures they made that follows the trends of the drug market ) DEA might consider making it unavailable to the public.

As for 1, i might as well add that i am quite convinced that DEA or other agencies know of this website,it isnt hard to find,but they choose not to prosecute anyone at least without a good excuse.Shroomery has been in the media,as well as its all over the web for someone typing easy keywords in Google.Dont be fooled though! What might simply be happening is that the agencies dont harm this and many sites because they are information nodes even to them! By enrolling at this forum ,they can have an "insider's view" on what substances can be found on market,current trends in usage,suppliers etc etc.The same information that is available to me and you is available also to everyone who joins! Actually they would be stupid NOT TO have agents that keep an eye on popular online communities! I am not an advocate of it ,but i cant help being a realist!

There is nothing we can do about it,since its a double edged sword of publicly available information.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: browndustin]
    #4308233 - 06/17/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

browndustin said:
Yeah, some dumbasses I know don't give any credit to sites like erowid or lycaeum




I've talked to people that don't believe anything found on the Internet. They say things like, "Everyone since the sixties has known that LSD is made from strictnine, and I don't care what stupid Internet bullshit web-site you show me says".

Some people can't accept the truth.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Ekstaza]
    #4310564 - 06/18/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe they should read a book?
That's what I like to do. Don't believe me? Here read this whole book, and then come back and tell me I'm a dumbass.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


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Offlineunearth
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Heffy]
    #4310998 - 06/18/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

ask him what he does bieleve,then ask where he got that info from


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Psiloman]
    #4311051 - 06/18/05 04:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

as well, Google Scholar is a useful resource - searches PubMed as well as a plethora of other academic-journals!

good post, Psiloman!


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OfflineKooshster
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Krishna]
    #4311340 - 06/18/05 06:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I remember looking through my girlfriends University psychology textbook and reading the chapter on mind altering substances. Of all the drugs listed, alcohol had the most known health risks and even the author commented on the irony behind it all.

Our beliefs are dictated by when and where we live. Had we all been living a thousand years ago in Europe or the Middle East, we'd be fucked on Opium and loving it. If we were natives living before the Europeans settled, we'd be busy munching on peyote and mushrooms. It pisses me off because society is inconsistent and the government knows it's full of shit. Yet they continue to throw people in jail for doing 'drugs'.

I'm sick of people telling me that drugs are bad while they sip their fucking cocktails.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Kooshster]
    #4311432 - 06/18/05 07:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Some General Comments : I chose to study sciences in as my University subject and the syllabus actually included some reading from textbooks and a lot of reading of articles from peer reviewed scientific magazines.We had tutorials with professors giving us the latest news on their subject and always,oh always, we were asked to comment on it or bring matterial for further discussion.On scientific books you can find solid information,but when it comes to "latest" info you need critical skills to pick up the nice peices of information.One must be able to know where to search and which sources are credible! Its different if you read that harmaline lets say "superconducts your DNA" on a new age website or if you read about its mode of action on Pubmed articles. One of the best parts of the courses i took was that those people taught me how to think for myself and how to utilise that slimy mass in my skull to get the information i need.

Im pretty cautious of where im taking my information of,and i have the bug of crosscheckign it.I know that Erowid is credible,but for me it wont do! I reseach the bibliography they give and also check with 1-2 other "non drug focused" scientific websites. Erowid is 99% of the times correct,it doesnt harm though checking.

Those people who call internet a bull can be put in the corner quite easily. Tell them to cite their sources.Tell them to bring you the synthesis diagram of LSD that includes the mighty strichnine....Philosophize with them on information acquisition...Point out gently and without offending that they do not have the appropriate knowldege to judge the information in question or even better use Socrate's Method. Make THEM to tell you that they dont know shit with question after question. If indeed your conversation with them stirs some electric activity in their brain they will soon find out in them that...they dont know what they are talking about! Socrates kept doing that till he started embarassing some people in very high places ,making them makefools of themselves in publicy and then they made him drink hemlock...This simply shows how people can talk shit,dont know they talk shit till they realise it painfully and then get enraged at the one who helped them give birth to the ultimate truths of "knowing nothing".

All knowledge is an "approximation" and i do my best to get my approximation as close as the truth.

You can get some papers,scientific studies that is,to show at disbelievers...There are many of them on how hallucinogens work,how they are synthesised etc etc...


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: Ekstaza]
    #4312020 - 06/18/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
I've talked to people that don't believe anything found on the Internet. They say things like, "Everyone since the sixties has known that LSD is made from strictnine, and I don't care what stupid Internet bullshit web-site you show me says".




/me pukes from the idiocy

Yeah, we've all ran into people like that eh. Where does the logic come in, really.

It's bad when people are so quick to disregard the internet as being a place full of paranoid losers. It's the worlds biggest library, and you can access anything in a simple matter of clicks and keystrokes. Google, wikipedia, and forums to a degree will pose all the information you could ever fathom.

Ah well, I hear they say ignorance is bliss though. I'll comfortably enjoy my psychedelics and peace of mind. :wexican:


--------------------
When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops
maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: "My friend Disbelieves Erowid": Alternative approach [Re: browndustin]
    #4313173 - 06/19/05 07:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Not to be unfair to many people we should add "NOW /me pukes from idiocy"

Let me clarify that : Before i knew anything about psychoactives ,at a very young age, i believed whatever was told to me about them. When i was 13,14,15 i did not know how to judge information of this short,did not know where to look ,did not know who provides correct information.For example my understanding of LSD was that "It produces visual hallucinations" which translated in me into "You are seeing stuff" and had no interest in trying something that does that.Mass media would not clarify that its not only hallucinations but involves many other effects,and for speaking the truth they still cannot be accurately named as "hallucinations" because this implies that the person sees "random bulsihit" ,a rather negative connotation.School of course would not clarify it as well..

So if some one,a low end user ,or an official told me it contained strichnine how was i to know it didnt? Why would they lie to me,or put it better why would they be misinformed? So lacking any other sources one tends to believe its true.Its not that this knowledge will come as applicable to the non user!

Later on i learned how to research...Mind you i was not into "drugs" ,i was into information ,high and delerious from acquiring information on many matters scientific ,artistic etc etc so when i found some pages on psychoactives they peaked my interest.At last,i could read what those do with some eloquency rather than the "it gets you fucked up" of the average user.When i read Erowid at first i was at disbelief.Why should erowid be correct after all? Researching i found out that ,yes ,it is correct most of the times and learned how "hallucinogens" act on the brain without all that -nowadays- silly of brain bleeding etc etc...Even before i read erowid i knew,using common logic, that if something makes your brain bleed you are in dire trouble and certainly if a psychoactive did it after first use you would end up dead or crippled depending on how fast the doctors sponged up the blood from your brain!

Bottom line : Dont be enraged or grossed out at those people.Its easy to call them idiots now that you know how those substances act.Im not proposing a lenient approach on those people ,im proposign a realistic one ,taking for granded that they do not know and that they can be informed. I went through the phase where i called them stupid and when i talked to them i was bit underestimating their intelligence...Guess what...Noone wants to be told their are stupid in any way or even in connotation,so when i somehow offended them stone walls were erected in their ears and simply they wouldnt listen at me. A different approach was having a conversation with them...I didnt state facts i just asked them,and they did most of the talking.Many times they even admited while askign them questions that they dont know more or havent read but just heard about it. When they stated untrue "facts" i made a mental note of them and in the end i asked them "Because the subject is very interesting,come with me in an internet cafe or a library so we we research it",or next time i saw them i procured some scientific papers i "happened" to have on me because i was sto stimulated by the conversation we had that i had to look into it :P :P :P .Well,it worked! People where more responsive and suddenly intelligence sprouted from their "idiocy".

It is wise and kind to walk in someone shoes and think how you could give him some information for his/her own good without offending him.It is also wise because your information goes through!


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