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InvisibleSilversoul
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The Capitalist Challenge
    #4294272 - 06/14/05 05:28 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

For those of you who oppose capitalism, here's your chance to show us what you've got. Please give a clear and comprehensive explanation of what alternative you would prefer. The only Shroomerite I know of who has done so is Krishna, with the ParEcon model. Please explain how your non-market-based economy would work, and why it's superior to capitalism. Prepare to be debated on the points you bring up.

For purposes of this thread, I will expand my usual definition of capitalism to include any sort of reforms within a market economy. Thus, progressivism(modern liberalism) will be included under capitalism, even though its adherents may not agree with pure free-market capitalism. However, reformers are of course also welcome to state what reforms they feel capitalism requires(I myself have brought up land reform many times).

So let's hear it. What system should replace capitalism, and why?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #4294292 - 06/14/05 05:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Here we go again.  :smirk:

Capitalism has consistently been one of the most popular, heated, and touched upon topics in this forum for years it seems.  Every three or four months, some big thread gets started about it. 

It also gets annoying explaining the same shit over and over again to new people.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #4294383 - 06/14/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't say I am opposed to Capitalism...but I would like to see a system where the "money" is directly tied to units of energy usage. I think our current supply/demand system has resulted in many material objects with a "value" either much greater or lower than the measure of energy used in their production.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: trendal]
    #4294399 - 06/14/05 08:14 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well, as you mentioned, a ParEcon model!

i have to get back to work now, but will most definitely come back later this eve and can try to explain why i feel it to be a much better system.

in the meantime, here are some links:

ParEcon FAQ

Comparing Capitalism and Participatory Economics

ParEcon - Life After Capitalism (full text book)

Socialism as it was meant to be

The Political Economy of Participatory Economics (full text book)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: trendal]
    #4294675 - 06/14/05 12:27 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I wouldn't say I am opposed to Capitalism...but I would like to see a system where the "money" is directly tied to units of energy usage. I think our current supply/demand system has resulted in many material objects with a "value" either much greater or lower than the measure of energy used in their production.



I think there's more to production than just energy. There's talent, creativity, investment, etc., and you can't always quantify all that. I am opposed to the current fiat system we use, though. My preference would be to use the population standard, where the money supply would be tied to the population. This would make the amount of money per person fairly constant, and cause very little inflation or deflation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Krishna]
    #4298489 - 06/15/05 11:10 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Some problems I see with ParEcon:

While I can understand the merit in the workers having democratic control of the means of production so that they can all have an equal portion of the profits, but to have everyone, including the consumers, participate in economic planning is a disaster waiting to happen. While it may be more decentralized than state socialism, it still suffers from the same problems associated with planned economies. I don't think you really understand just how complex the market is. The people who participate in it usually don't.

Let's look at the relatively benign task of providing milk for the population. Well, first you have to account for how many people have cattle, then figure how much they'll have to produce. Then you need trucks to deliver it to stores, so you have to account for gas. Then sometimes the trucks break down, so you have to have mechanics. There's a million other things involve that would boggle the mind to think about. Democratic decision-making isn't going to make it any easier.

In a market economy, however, everyone acting individually to maximize their utility creates an "invisible hand," as Adam Smith put it, which makes it very easy to read the signals that the market is giving. The grocery store owner may look at their supply of milk and realize they're running low, so he has more milk ordered for the next month while he temporarily raises the prices in order to keep it in stock. He doesn't have to worry about the dairy farmers or the trucks or the mechanics or any of that stuff because those people are already out there trying to maximize their utility.

Another problem I see with ParEcon is that it's not a friendly environment for entrepreneurism. Entrepreneurism is one of the things that has made capitalism flourish far beyond any planned economy. A prosperous economy needs risk-takers who are willing to put it all on the line for their dream. But to do this, they need to buy the means of production. They need the profit incentive in order to be driven.

Also, I don't want the majority deciding what products are going to be available. Some of the best products are marketed not to the general public, but rather to niche markets. Most people don't buy bongs and bubblers. That's a niche market, and it'd be a damn shame if those weren't available just because the majority didn't deem it necessary to produce.

Ultimately, I'd say ParEcon is only slightly more promising than state socialism, and that's not saying much. The one thing it has going for it is decentralization. I can see the potential for elements of it being integrated into a capitalist economy, but it would a distaster to try and use it as a substitute for capitalism. It suffers from most of the same downfalls as any other planned economy.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #4299943 - 06/15/05 05:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

just a CRAZY idea. but everyone could make what they need individually, directly from the land they occupy.
i guess it would destroy our modern industrial society tho.
oh well.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: BleaK]
    #4299991 - 06/15/05 05:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so simple it's genius. :wink:


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'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: BleaK]
    #4300087 - 06/15/05 05:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
just a CRAZY idea. but everyone could make what they need individually, directly from the land they occupy.
i guess it would destroy our modern industrial society tho.
oh well.



If you could snap your fingers and make this happen, would you? Bear in mind, you'd have the blood of six billion and change on those fingers.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4300249 - 06/15/05 06:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

yes.
tho i dont think quite 6 billion would die.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (06/15/05 06:13 PM)


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: BleaK]
    #4300269 - 06/15/05 06:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
yes.
tho i dont think quite 6 billion would die.



So you're alright with ~6 billion dying so you can farm shit all day?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4300480 - 06/15/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

not so i could farm shit.
so we could create a maintainable cycle of life that would be more equitable for everyone.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: BleaK]
    #4300557 - 06/15/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
not so i could farm shit.
so we could create a maintainable cycle of life that would be more equitable for everyone.



This state of affairs STILL wouldn't be equitable. The strongest would run roughshod over those weaker than them. Those more suited to farming and hunting would thrive while those who aren't would perish. I suppose I'll never be able to comprehend this obsession with people being equal -- it is an impossibility.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinerogue_pixie
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4300605 - 06/15/05 07:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Flight was impossible 100 years ago.


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'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.' ~ J. Krishnamurti


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InvisibleArp
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4300652 - 06/15/05 07:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Somehow that sounds just like today just less "obvious" for the masses. Sophisticated oppression


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: BleaK]
    #4300701 - 06/15/05 07:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
just a CRAZY idea. but everyone could make what they need individually, directly from the land they occupy.
i guess it would destroy our modern industrial society tho.
oh well.




Well, yes it would. Unless you want to return to the stone age. You can't grow CPU's or refigerators on a farm, ya know......


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #4300712 - 06/15/05 07:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

And back on topic - I don't really have a problem with capitalism per se, just corporatism....


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #4300785 - 06/15/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yes yes yes.

I love Water Bongs!!!!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4301488 - 06/15/05 11:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
And back on topic - I don't really have a problem with capitalism per se, just corporatism....



Kudos to you for being perceptive enough to distinguish between the two.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Capitalist Challenge [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4301574 - 06/16/05 12:01 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

BleaK said:
not so i could farm shit.
so we could create a maintainable cycle of life that would be more equitable for everyone.



This state of affairs STILL wouldn't be equitable. The strongest would run roughshod over those weaker than them. Those more suited to farming and hunting would thrive while those who aren't would perish. I suppose I'll never be able to comprehend this obsession with people being equal -- it is an impossibility.



I'm gonna have to call to call B.S. on that. People in early agricultural times did starve, but it was due to drought, famine, and crop failures, not due to anyone's incompetence of agriculture. The most common cause of death in those days was tooth decay, from the refined sugars that had been introduced into their diet.


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