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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4295376 - 06/14/05 03:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The devil's advocate thing seems like a ploy to allow you to express the beliefs you really want to express

Do you say this to everyone who plays devil's advocate? If not, what criteria are you using to determine that I'm using it as a ploy?

And how exactly is another boy's testimony of a splotch on MJ's penis evidence that THIS OTHER BOY was molested by MJ?

It goes to MJ's propensity to molest boys. It's hard to find an explanation for Chandler's accurate description of a blotch on MJ's penis and his accusation of molestation, followed by a 20 million dollar settlement other than the accusation was the truth.

If MJ did it last time, it's reasonable to conclude he did it this time.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295402 - 06/14/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you say this to everyone who plays devil's advocate? If not, what criteria are you using to determine that I'm using it as a ploy?





No, I don't look through threads for opportunities to call out EVERYONE who does it... but that doesn't change the fact that I don't consider devil's advocacy to be a legitimate basis for choosing a side in a discussion. The only criteria I used to come up with my OPINION of your actions was the certainty of the statements you made from the stance of devil's advocate.

So just to clarify then, even after all those posts you just made that said you think he's guilty, you DON'T actually think he's guilty? (Which is not to say that you think him innocent, but simply that you DON'T think he is guilty.)

Maybe I just don't understand why anyone would bother playing devil's advocate in a discussion where both sides are already widely represented.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295427 - 06/14/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
It goes to MJ's propensity to molest boys. It's hard to find an explanation for Chandler's accurate description of a blotch on MJ's penis and his accusation of molestation, followed by a 20 million dollar settlement other than the accusation was the truth.

If MJ did it last time, it's reasonable to conclude he did it this time.




And as for this part... well, this is the grey area of our legal system. There are some instances where this kind of reasoning leads to justice and truth, but there are also (probably just as many) instances where this kind of reasoning leads to wrongful imprisonment.

So what do you want? You can't have it both ways; short of judicial reform... the government has made it quite clear that "things don't work that way"... so, in lieu of a NEW judicial system that somehow incorporates variable systems of reasoning, we MUST stick to "innocent until proven guilty" or else we're screwing ourselves into a position where (even moreso than by today's standards) anyone can be proven guilty of anything--whether there is reasonable doubt or not.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4295430 - 06/14/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, I see you are unable to handle the concept of playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of a discussion, so I'll bow out now.  :sad:

Once more, for the record, I don't know about MJ one way or another. I see evidence on both sides of the fence. To come to a real conclusion, I'd have to spend way more time looking at evidence I couldn't care less about.

See ya...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
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Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295460 - 06/14/05 04:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Alright, I see you are unable to handle the concept of playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of a discussion, so I'll bow out now.  :sad:

For the record, I don't know about MJ one way or another. I see evidence on both sides of the fence. To come to a real conclusion, I'd have to spend way more time looking at evidence I couldn't care less about.

See ya...




Yes, I can't "handle" it... nice wording, very friendly!

Really, listen... it's not that I can't "handle it", I just don't think it's a logical choice unless it's an extreme situation where there's no support for the opposing team. (And last time I checked, the Jacko-is-guilty crowd is a dime a dozen.)

What is stopping you from supporting neutrality in a discussion, since that's what you supposedly believe in? Wouldn't it make sense to work from that stance, since that's the one you preach?

What do we have to learn from taking sides and fighting the fight? We aren't ever going to conclude one way or another that he is innocent or guilty... so why not take the most LOGICAL route, and support the notion of neutrality on the subject?

Really, maybe you can explain it. Why are you playing devil's advocate? For the "sake of discussion" is not an answer. Discussion for no reason is verbal masturbation. Discussion for no reason is ego stroking.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4296175 - 06/14/05 06:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

what i mean is, this isn't going to prevent further molestationsd from happening at all. this will just give all the petter asses out there the extra "balls" to melest kids. if Jackson was sentanced to say 15-20, maybe some of them would think twice.

now they just think anyone can get away with it? No?

_______________________________________________________________________


You seem to know a lot about how they think. No one who wasn't there will really know what happened. If you can't prove him guilty then by our legal system, he isn't. That's about all you can say about this unpleasant issue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (06/14/05 06:32 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Jackson [Re: Icelander]
    #4296725 - 06/14/05 08:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I am sure that this will not be the last you will hear of Mr. Jackson. This will have emboldened him, as well as hardening his arrogance, and his "work" with children will continue.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jackson [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4296863 - 06/14/05 09:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hue, honestly I don't know one way or the other. I never met the man and that is how I like to judge people.

Actually I care very little what Jackson does, as long as I am acting in the correct manner. :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
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Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Jackson [Re: Icelander]
    #4297850 - 06/15/05 01:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i care if mentally and emotionally unstable middle-aged grown ass men are allowed to have sleep-overs with random elementary school children in the same bed!!!?

who would allow such a thing?!!

a lady who is looking to get jackson's money?...yes! but that doesn't mean she made it up!!!? of course it happend and the fuckin mom allowed it!!!! for greed, is a powerful thing.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
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Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4298000 - 06/15/05 02:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It's clear that Michael Jackson was not afforded the opportunity to enjoy an ordinary young life, and, feeling robbed from that, is using his vast fortune to recreate and take refuge in childhood. For Michael, part of that is spending time with children. Although the whole arrangement is no doubt very unhealthy for Michael as well as the children who visit him, it doesn't necessarily follow that Michael Jackson is molesting children.

None of us possess evidence which confirms Michael Jackson has molested children, and those of us who believe he did are tightly confined by the constraints of speculative judgement. Speculation is not objectivity, and is therefore not a characteristic of justice. Simply put, there are no reasonable grounds to conclude Michael Jackson has molested anybody. And that's why he was acquitted.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4298261 - 06/15/05 06:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

of course it happend and the fuckin mom allowed it!!
___________________________________________________________

Of course you know what happened? You were there. You didn't just listen to the media. Of course you know, you are privy to things normal mortals are not. Of course you know, you are judge and jury and you are the voice of God here. Of course you know.

Of course you don't. You would be a dangerous person on a jury. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Ped]
    #4298368 - 06/15/05 08:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
None of us possess evidence which confirms Michael Jackson has molested children, and those of us who believe he did are tightly confined by the constraints of speculative judgement.  Speculation is not objectivity, and is therefore not a characteristic of justice.  Simply put, there are no reasonable grounds to conclude Michael Jackson has molested anybody.  And that's why he was acquitted.




This pretty much sums the entire thing up. :thumbup:

I'm amazed that so many people here involved themselves with this case to such a degree. :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4299001 - 06/15/05 11:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)


i care if mentally and emotionally unstable middle-aged grown ass men are allowed to have sleep-overs with random elementary school children in the same bed!!!?
_____________________________________________________________________

I'll tell you why I don't care about Jackson. Because he's outside my sphere of influence and knowledge. I would have to take the word of the media, who I don't trust or respect, and make a judgement based on lack of real information.

This is a big fucking distraction. If you care so much Uriah, what do you plan to do about it? What's your action plan? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
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Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
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Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Icelander]
    #4299268 - 06/15/05 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'll tell you why I don't care about Jackson. Because he's outside my sphere of influence and knowledge. I would have to take the word of the media, who I don't trust or respect, and make a judgement based on lack of real information.





Word.  :thumbup:  :heart:

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Jackson [Re: Ped]
    #4299914 - 06/15/05 02:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
None of us possess evidence which confirms Michael Jackson has molested children, and those of us who believe he did are tightly confined by the constraints of speculative judgement.  Speculation is not objectivity, and is therefore not a characteristic of justice.  Simply put, there are no reasonable grounds to conclude Michael Jackson has molested anybody.  And that's why he was acquitted.




:thumbup:

That was the smartest thing I have read so far in this thread.

:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:

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