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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4295170 - 06/14/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So it doesn't really "count" against the mother, because the mother is not the one on trial.

Yes, but the point was that Seuss and others give more weight to the mother's past than to MJs past.

Who's on trial is not relevant. You either take the participants' past into account or you don't but you shouldn't do it selectively.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/14/05 02:45 PM)

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295226 - 06/14/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, but "the boy" in this case did not testify to that.

You had that listed as part of this case.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: Jellric]
    #4295240 - 06/14/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I'm not looking at the case as a juror who's view of the evidence is carefully obscured and managed.

I'm seeing the unobstructed big picture and that picture suggests to me that he's guilty more than it suggests he's not.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jackson [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4295247 - 06/14/05 03:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It's revealing how the accuser's mother went first, not to the police, but a money lawyer. The fact that she lied, and coached her kids to lie under oath in both the previous shakedown (JC Penney) and in the parent's divorce proceedings absolutely destroyed any credibility they had with the jury and doomed the case from day one. The mother's bizarre behavior towards the jury only served to underline that fact.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: Jellric]
    #4295253 - 06/14/05 03:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My take is that the mother deliberately put the boy within MJs reach hoping he would be molested with the intention of cashing in after the fact.

I think both the mother and MJ are guilty of abusing the boy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/14/05 03:25 PM)

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295260 - 06/14/05 03:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I'm not looking at the case as a juror who's view of the evidence is carefully obscured and managed.

What is obscure about making it clear that the Jackson member description was not from this child?

I'm seeing the unobstructed big picture and that picture suggests to me that he's guilty more than it suggests he's not.

Yes, but would you have a reasonable doubt that he molested this child? That was the standard of proof in this case. I feel the prosectors failed to meet this standard and evidently the jury did as well.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295281 - 06/14/05 03:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I'm seeing the unobstructed big picture and that picture suggests to me that he's guilty more than it suggests he's not.




You are? And why is your view so much less obstructed? Are you not subject to the same perceptual filters as the rest of us? I realize that you're not being "first hand influenced" by the lawyers, but that seems highly irrelevant in light of the fact that the only source of even somewhat conclusive RELEVANT information comes from the very same trial.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Jackson [Re: Jellric]
    #4295297 - 06/14/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You are correct, there was reasonable doubt based on the mother's conduct and past. As such and based on celebrity justice, the defendant was found not guilty. It's an ideal world in the land of celebrity justice, where reasonable doubt (even if unreasonable) is actually used by a jury to decide a case.

Let's consider the hypothetical case of a husband accused of similar touching as MJ but of his own kid. Similar lack of physical evidence, PLUS husband has never been accused of any molest in the past but now has vengeful angry wife seeking divorce, money and custody of the kids. Wife has accused husband of hitting her in domestic dispute argument but police found no evidence of such and did not arrest husband. Young daughter now says Daddy touched her.

Would husband get the benefit of the doubt as to wife's potential (very real) for revenge and coaching of the kid to lie with most juries in today's world? Be honest now...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (06/14/05 03:36 PM)

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Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
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Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Jackson [Re: Jellric]
    #4295299 - 06/14/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i stand by my statement: it's fucked up!

hehehe..... well, i guess if priests,R Kelly,famous basketball stars, and Jackson can all get away with it... ummm...

what i mean is, this isn't going to prevent further molestationsd from happening at all. this will just give all the petter asses out there the extra "balls" to melest kids. if Jackson was sentanced to say 15-20, maybe some of them would think twice.

now they just think anyone can get away with it? No?


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295301 - 06/14/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
My take is that the mother deliberately put the boy within MJs reach hoping he would be molested with the intention of cashing in after the fact.

I think both the mother and MJ are guilty of abusing the boy.




Aren't you usually against making up conclusions? I thought you were the next Swami?  :smirk:

Or does that only apply if you're dictating it as fact? There's something to be said about the negative aspects of making up conclusions internally for yourself, too...

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4295302 - 06/14/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And why is your view so much less obstructed?

I mean that my view isn't managed by lawyers. I can see things that the jury wasn't allowed to see, like the Chandler boy's description of a splotch on MJs penis that the police later confirmed and photographed.

Aren't you usually against making up conclusions?

Not when I'm playing Devil's Advocate. Besides, what other conclusions could I come to other than one I made up from the available evidence?  :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295317 - 06/14/05 03:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder what Ziddy's opinion on this is.  :blush:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295322 - 06/14/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you all talking about this anyway? You think you are going to figure out if he is or is not guilty? The only way you could figure that out by being there with the boy and Jackson, no other way


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Jackson [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4295326 - 06/14/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you all talking about this anyway?

Because I feel like it. Geez!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Jackson [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4295328 - 06/14/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Why are you all talking about this anyway? You think you are going to figure out if he is or is not guilty? The only way you could figure that out by being there with the boy and Jackson, no other way




fuck that! you are a sick man!

can't believe you actually consider being present during that!!?


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295331 - 06/14/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

but what is the purpuse of it? This is two sided speculation, not a discussion


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Jackson [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4295333 - 06/14/05 03:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

u dont have to be a part of it........


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Jackson [Re: Diploid]
    #4295335 - 06/14/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

How 'bout not coming to a conclusion, and accepting that as a perfectly reasonable conclusion in itself, as per your original response?

The devil's advocate thing seems like a ploy to allow you to express the beliefs you really want to express, while still allowing you to wear the badge of neutrality... but that's just my perception.

And how exactly is another boy's testimony of a splotch on MJ's penis evidence that THIS OTHER BOY was molested by MJ?

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4295336 - 06/14/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

during what? During a nice conversation between the two, or during sex between the two?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Jackson [Re: uriahchase]
    #4295352 - 06/14/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

can't believe you actually consider being present during that!!?

During what?
The worst thing that M.J. did was give the kids some wine. That is a far cry from molestation.

All the evidence I heard made the mother out to be the monster not M.J.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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