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OfflineGNIOM1498
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: zee_werp]
    #4297810 - 06/15/05 12:55 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zee_werp said:
Mescaline, mescaline or peyote?

It depends what you mean by 'meditation'.



There is very little difference between mescaline and LSD almost no one should be able to recognize the difference.


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----ALL MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL-------

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4298983 - 06/15/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"It is not about silencing the mind"

I am afraid that the preliminary stages of learning to meditate are all about silencing the mind...often this involves counting the breath and learning to let thoughts pass in a observational manner. Music would be a no-no as well. I practiced Zen style meditation for about 5 years. I have never heard or read anything to indicate that meditation does NOT involve silencing the mind.




If you will note, I said that about my form of meditation, which I also said is 180 degrees different than traditional forms of meditation. You are applying your experiences with meditation and reinforcing them on others. Am I to give up my own practices with music and/or substances because they do not adhere to your training? I think this is rather unfair to expect others to explore their own potential with their consciousness based on the conditions which one person finds acceptable.

Let's look at Dictionary.com's definition of meditate:

med?i?tate Audio pronunciation of "meditate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (md-tt)
v. med?i?tat?ed, med?i?tat?ing, med?i?tates
v. tr.

1. To reflect on; contemplate.
2. To plan in the mind; intend: meditated a visit to her daughter.


v. intr.

1.
1. Buddhism & Hinduism. To train, calm, or empty the mind, often by achieving an altered state, as by focusing on a single object.
2. To engage in devotional contemplation, especially prayer.
2. To think or reflect, especially in a calm and deliberate manner.

Certainly my method of training my mind meets the requirements to be considered meditation, whether or not such methods are taught by others.

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"It was simply to explore which drugs are effective in meditation"

Yes, but the option for NO DRUGS was not given which is making a big assumption. Ultimately, meditation is a practical exercise which is NOT about exploring alternate states of conciousness, but learning to focus the mind in an effective manner. Drugs are foreign substances which are alien to our bodies...you will NOT perform optimally while on drugs. So many people here are so pro-drug that they see drugs as nutrients....that is a fallacy that can get you in serious trouble.




Again, you are going off topic. The intention of this thread was for me to get feedback on what drugs people found effective in helping to facilitate a deeper meditative state. You are making this into a pro/anti-drug debate, and my intentions were to objectively and non-judgmentally explore what people's experiences were. I already know my results in meditation with sober versus non-sober states of mind; there is no need for me to explore that in this thread. I would be willing to discuss the outlook on whether drugs can be beneficial for meditation in another thread.

I must point out that you are making assumptions on my experience with drugs, music, and meditation. You've told me that they are forbidden and that meditation MUST be done in a certain fashion. Is this not contrary to Zen philosophy? If you were looking to get into a discussion over these matters, would it not have been better to state your own experiences first rather than make judgments on mine, without knowing them no less?


To quote Lao Tzu, "they who tell do not know; they who know do not tell."


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Twirling]
    #4299365 - 06/15/05 12:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

From my experience, the effects of alcohol and cannabis both mimick some aspects of meditative states, which actually makes it more difiicult for me to have any significant rclear relaization and insights  whilst under thier influence. Cannabis in my experience, blocks the meridians (enegry pathways) in the same way as tobacco does, except with the added confusion of distrubing and blocking the crown and root chakras, which facilitie single pointed concentration and access to the more sublte aspects of being.  :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Twirling]
    #4299999 - 06/15/05 03:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"To quote Lao Tzu, "they who tell do not know; they who know do not tell."

When I was younger I did try meditation while on acid, mescaline, ayahuasca, psilocybin, and amanita as well as alcohol and marijuana. I found it to be a waste of time. I understood why all of the teachings available did not address drugs or that they forbade drugs outright. So, I guess I do know. This experimentation was a result of my immaturity at that time. I should also note that any time your mental state changes it is altered. That does not mean that when I am angry or sleepy that I am exploring altered states of conciousness...they just occur. My comments are quite on topic. You must accept that you cannot control every response you get so that you verify the false conclusions you may like to support. The thread goes where it will according to the forum. A thread is forum property...not your property and it follows the whims of all the users not only yours. Your claim of off topic posting is merely an attempt to silence those with whom you do not agree, or so it seems to me. Your readings from the Tao Te Ching may help you with these control issues.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4300070 - 06/15/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I like to eat a HUGE meal before meditating. It helps to keep me from floating out of my body. The extra weight and all. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4300090 - 06/15/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I refer you to the S&P Rules:

4) Keep Posts on Topic
-- Off topic posts will be moved to the appropriate forum. "Derailing" threads by making off-topic posts in someone else's thread is considered a violation of this rule, and in some cases the offending posts may be removed from the thread at the request of the thread creator.

I said I would discuss this in a different thread on it's own merit, if you so wish. Obviously I am not trying to silence any posts which I disagree with if I am willing to discuss this topic on it's own merit. I am not trying to control what you have to say, rather I am saying that there is a different outlet for it. Telling me that readings from the Tao Te Ching may help me control these issues is a rather controlling statement in itself.

At any rate, you are missing the point. At no instance in this thread did I say that drugs were required for meditative purposes. I merely stated my own success with them. You are stating that it's not even possible, contrary to my experience. You are the one who is trying to control other's posts. A person's brain is a highly variable collection of neurons; surely what works for one person's meditative state is not going to work for others. Just because music/drugs worked for me, does not mean it will work for you. Just because music/drugs didn't work for you, does not mean it won't work for me.

Again, the topic of this thread is what are the best & worst drugs for meditation in people's own experience. If you wish to discuss the pros & cons of using drugs for meditation, I will be more than happy to talk about it in another thread.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Icelander]
    #4300126 - 06/15/05 03:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I will take this under consideration. I have this problem frequently.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Twirling]
    #4300137 - 06/15/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

In seeking to silence a voice that was addressing your topic you have derailed your own thread...but I am glad that you know the rules...now seek to understand them in defining off topic as your last post surely was.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4300177 - 06/15/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Again, I am not trying to silence your voice. Start a different thread on that topic and I will discuss it with you. I'm not going to discuss this further in this thread.

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OfflineKerr
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Icelander]
    #4300394 - 06/15/05 04:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why wouldnt you wanna float out of your body? :smile:


--------------------
"Easy going and organic thoughts bent on self experimentation and knowledge and growth for the betterment of self and those around us"
-Playdo the philosophiser

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Kerr]
    #4300463 - 06/15/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't like looking down on myself. :grin:  :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Icelander]
    #4300487 - 06/15/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Twirling]
    #4301256 - 06/15/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)


Tea.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Murex]
    #4301469 - 06/15/05 09:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That's a pretty good suggestion. I find tea to be very calming. Any particular type of tea?

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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Twirling]
    #4301938 - 06/15/05 11:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The fact that a known drug freak said this lends it no credibility. It demonstrates a clear bias.

Hue you chump, I'm constantly catching you make this shining error in your debate tactics. The person's "credibility" in your eyes has no bearing on whether their claim is "true" or not. If a native american said the sky was blue, I'm going to guess you wouldn't disbelieve him on account of his being a "drunken indian" correct?

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #4301958 - 06/15/05 11:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I said that someone who openly promoted drugs had a bias. I am a "drug freak" and in no way am questioning Mr. Alpert's character which I understand is above reproach...but it is very likely he has a bias based on a preference. You have misread my intent. I admit it was poorly worded to be provocative. Please point out any logic errors I commit...I am looking for them myself as well, but I miss many.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4301982 - 06/15/05 11:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That's the spirit! :thumbup: :heart: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #4301984 - 06/15/05 11:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Note: a person's credibility is a good guage by which the truth can be judged. If a person is a known liar then everything they say is suspect, so credibilty IS valid.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Best/Worst Drugs For Meditation? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4302149 - 06/16/05 12:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

huehue, we could ask you, "which are the best drugs for arguing and fighting?" and so assume that you are providing a negative answer to this topic, and thereby staying on topic by reverse psychology.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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