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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Private health care for Quebec
    #4287457 - 06/12/05 05:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Private health care for Quebec
High court strikes down ban; universal system threatened

OTTAWA -- Canada's highest court struck down Thursday a Quebec law banning private health insurance, paving the way for private clinics and threatening Canada's universal health-care system.

CANADIAN HEALTH CARE
Canada's Medicare system arose from a 1984 law that affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care for all, including immigrants.

Most polls indicate that Canadians support the system despite the taxes needed to finance it, seeing it as a marker of egalitarianism and independent identity that sets their country apart from the United States, where millions of people lack health insurance.

But in recent years the system has been plagued by long waiting lists and a lack of doctors, nurses and state-of-the-art equipment. Some patients wait months for surgery, MRI machines are scarce and many Canadians travel to the United States for treatment.

Under the Canadian system, it is illegal to seek faster treatment by paying out of pocket for public care. Private health clinics have sprouted up for those Canadians willing to spend their own money. They are illegal, though some provincial governments tend to look the other way, especially for minor treatments.

By the Associated Press

"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health-care system are widespread and that in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," the Canadian Supreme Court ruled.

"In sum, the prohibition on obtaining private health insurance is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services."

Although the unanimous ruling applies only to Quebec, it is sure to bring similar cases to other Canadian provinces and act as a catalyst for a growing movement pushing for both public and private care.

Lower courts had ruled that although the law violated the constitution, it had to remain in place to protect public health.

"This is the end of Medicare as we know it," said John Williamson, federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers' Federation, which pushed for private health care. "It's also the beginning of better care."

The decision paves the way for lawsuits to be filed in Canada's other provinces and puts the country on a path toward the kind of two-tier health-care system found in most European countries, Williamson said.

"We're not going to have a two-tier health-care system in this country; nobody wants that," Prime Minister Paul Martin said Thursday. "What we want to do is to strengthen the public health-care system."

Last September, Martin promised spending to help reduce the wait patients endure when seeking surgery and other treatments.

Creation of a private health-care system will benefit only wealthy people who can afford it, said Adam Natsheh, cochairman of the New Health Professionals Network, a lobby group that supports government-funded health care.

"Private insurance and private payment is no solution to the wait-list problem," Natsheh said. A private system "would only mean that the few Canadians who can afford it will buy their way to the front of the line."

Alberta provincial officials have long suggested that they wanted to develop a private health care system, while private diagnostic and special surgery clinics have been cropping up in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario in recent years.

The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that pressed ahead with private health care.

The decision also may deter U.S. efforts to adopt a system based on the Canadian model, said John Graham, director of health-care studies at the Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco.

About 45 million Americans lack health insurance, according to an August 2004 report from the U.S. Census Bureau.

The Quebec case was brought to the Supreme Court by Jacques Chaoulli, a Montreal family doctor who argued his own case through the courts, and George Zeliotis, a chemical salesman who was forced to wait a year for a hip replacement, while he was prohibited from paying privately for surgery.

Chaoulli and Zeliotis lost in two provincial courts before the Supreme Court decided to take their appeal.

In a news conference, Chaoulli declared a victory and predicted that the decision would eventually apply to all Canada. "How could you imagine that Quebecers may live," he asked, "and the English Canadian has to die?"

Quebec will ask the Supreme Court to delay the implementation of the decision, while politicians consider their options, provincial Justice Minister Yvon Marcoux said.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleRavus
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Registered: 07/18/03
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4287516 - 06/12/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:

It's about time Canada joins us.  :hellfire:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4287524 - 06/12/05 05:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Everytime I hear about this I laugh.  It is illegal to seek faster treatment from a doctor of your own choosing! 
Wow there's a system to emmulate if I ever heard of one  :crazyeyes:


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/17/03
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4287709 - 06/12/05 06:32 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Although I'm not Canadian, I must ask: how does this endanger Canada's Medicare system? It seems to me that it would give more people more choices and maybe take a little pressure off an overburdened system. But, like I said, I'm not Canadian, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details here.....


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4287734 - 06/12/05 06:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

This sounds like great news for the French Canoodians. :laugh:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4288491 - 06/12/05 09:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Although I'm not Canadian, I must ask: how does this endanger Canada's Medicare system? It seems to me that it would give more people more choices and maybe take a little pressure off an overburdened system. But, like I said, I'm not Canadian, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details here.....




Exactly. How is a private individual who takes his or her own money to get private medical care damaging or endangering public health care? If anything it is better for public health care because the person in question is still paying in the taxes to the health care system and they are not using its services. It would be taking a burden off of the public health care system. Why would the Canadian government be against that?

How fucking freaky is that? I have heard a few Canadians blather on and on about their socialist paradise and how great it is, but they don't have any freedom to make choices in one of the most important aspects of their lives (health care)??


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/12/05 09:35 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4288514 - 06/12/05 09:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Best sig of all time


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4289525 - 06/13/05 01:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Everytime I hear about this I laugh. It is illegal to seek faster treatment from a doctor of your own choosing!
Wow there's a system to emmulate if I ever heard of one








???

Where do you get this idea from?

I actually live in Canada and have used the public medical insurance system.

You can choose any doctor you like, anywhere in Canada. The only governemnt invovlment on that front is payment. Canada's medical insurance pays for your bills. That's it. The rest is up to you...

Anyways, until this recent court decision, it was illegal to buy your way to the front of the line, as priority was based on need.

Certain areas of the system are underfunded, hence these waiting times for some procedures.

Some people ask what the harm of a mixed public-private
system is...

It is two tiered, with better care going to those with more money. With the ruling class all taken care of, they tend to not want to support a public system for everyone else, thus diminishing the health of large portions of the country who must use the public system.

he plaintiffs, anti-Medicare activist Dr. Jacques Chaoulli and his patient, George Zeliotis, argued that the prohibition on private insurance violated Zeliotis' constitutional right


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: carbonhoots]
    #4289556 - 06/13/05 01:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
You can choose any doctor you like, anywhere in Canada. The only governemnt invovlment on that front is payment. Canada's medical insurance pays for your bills. That's it. The rest is up to you...





I can understand there being a restriction on "buying your way to the front of the line". But, are you and a doctor allowed to exit the public health care system temporarily and do a private transaction? Or does all health care that occurs in Canadian borders have to be under the domain of the government?


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4290554 - 06/13/05 11:47 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I love the two tier argument,



Only a system that which is flawed fears competition.

This is a nice kick in the balls for the socialists in Canada.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4290702 - 06/13/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I fear a system that leaves people out.

This private system that is perhaps about to be born here and operate side by side with the public one represents resources that will only go towards people who have enough money to pay, and in a private system, priority goes to the highest bidder. More money=better care.

In other words, elitist.

Just what the elites want.

It is a hell of a kick in the balls for Canadian socialism.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (06/13/05 12:32 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: carbonhoots]
    #4290765 - 06/13/05 12:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
I fear a system that leaves people out.

This private system that is perhaps about to be born here and operate side by side with the public one represents resources that will only go towards people who have enough money to pay, and in a private system, priority goes to the highest bidder. More money=better care.





Huh? As I gather, the rich will still pay in the same amount of taxes. The public health care system will still get the same amount of money. And, there will be one less person using the public health care system, so there will be more resources for poor people. So whats the problem?

The American public educational system up until recently was very similar. Everybody pays taxes that go into the public educational system's bank account (even if they sent their children to private school). And if someone did send their child to private school that is one less kid that is going to public school (so there will be more resources for the kids who were enrolled in public school). Things have changed recently with the voucher and charter school ideas however.


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/13/05 01:09 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4290795 - 06/13/05 12:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huh? As I gather, the rich will stay pay in the same amount of taxes. The public health care system will still get the same amount of money. And, there will be one less person using the public health care system, so there will be more resources for poor people. So whats the problem?


That's kind of simplistic view of things...the problem is that with Privatized health care is that it leaves little incentive for the doctors NOT to become privatized as they will make MUCH more money. Good for the doctors, Good for the people that can actually afford them...bad for everyone else.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Rono]
    #4290901 - 06/13/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

Randalflagg said:
Huh? As I gather, the rich will stay pay in the same amount of taxes. The public health care system will still get the same amount of money. And, there will be one less person using the public health care system, so there will be more resources for poor people. So whats the problem?




That's kind of simplistic view of things...the problem is that with Privatized health care is that it leaves little incentive for the doctors NOT to become privatized as they will make MUCH more money. Good for the doctors, Good for the people that can actually afford them...bad for everyone else.




Hm...I see where you are coming from. You think the allure of private medical transactions will cause a brain drain from the public health care system. Can't the public health care system compete with private health transactions? Do you really think that private health care transactions would ruin public health care? If so, then explain. That still freaks me out that you have no freedom to choose your own health care destiny in the Canadian public health care system.

Strangely though, American public school teachers earn good money with good benefits and most private school teachers earn much less money. Private schools are still much better than public schools however. Who would have thunk that?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4290984 - 06/13/05 01:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You think the allure of private medical transactions will cause a brain drain from the public health care system


The Brain Drain in Canada is already a huge problem for us...many graduates move to the States where they will make alot more money and pay less in taxes. I don't really blame them though, but it is one of the major reasons why we are facing a shortage of doctors...hence line ups for procedures, etc. Who knows...maybe privatiztion could actually be a good thing for Canada since it would help keepour doctors in the country. I'm still sort of torn on the issue personally, and can see the pros and cons of both sides.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Rono]
    #4291000 - 06/13/05 01:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

You think the allure of private medical transactions will cause a brain drain from the public health care system


  The Brain Drain in Canada is already a huge problem for us...many graduates move to the States where they will make alot more money and pay less in taxes.  I don't really blame them though, but it is one of the major reasons why we are facing a shortage of doctors...hence line ups for procedures, etc.  Who knows...maybe privatiztion could actually be a good thing for Canada since it would help keepour doctors in the country.  I'm still sort of torn on the issue personally, and can see the pros and cons of both sides.




Yeah, it's never easy to determine what to implement when it comes to national policy on an important and complicated issue.  Every possible avenue of action will have negatives associated with it. 

The best that usually can be hoped for is the policy that is the least shitty.  :lol:


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4291010 - 06/13/05 01:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Alberta (Where I live) has been trying to push through privatized medicine for some time now, and keeps getting shot down by the federal government. So we have been watching with interest how the Quebec case turned out..


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: Rono]
    #4291030 - 06/13/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe as a compromise they could require doctors working for private medical providers to perform a set amount of public medical service per month/year.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: cb9fl]
    #4291050 - 06/13/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Maybe as a compromise they could require doctors working for private medical providers to perform a set amount of public medical service per month/year.




:thumbup:


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Private health care for Quebec [Re: cb9fl]
    #4291058 - 06/13/05 01:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Maybe as a compromise they could require doctors working for private medical providers to perform a set amount of public medical service per month/year.




I think that's actually an excellent idea that would satisfy most of the people...sort of a win/win scenario.  The Doctors would make more money, the rich could have their 2nd tier healthcare and the poor would still have access to free quality healthcare. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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