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Offlinemushroommark
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Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting
    #4285535 - 06/12/05 03:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I was reading THIS THREAD and I noticed

RogerRabbit said
Quote:



Two, light has neither good nor ill effects on growing mushroom mycelium. It will not hurt, nor help, but there is no need to keep your jars in the dark. Stamets makes this clear in GGMC. He used to recommend incubation in total darkness(TMC), but he no longer recommends this. I concur. If you visit fungi perfecti you will see he has 10,000 square feet of incubation space that is exposed to overhead fluorescent lights during the full work day. My jars sit on a shelf in an open room as said above and they're exposed to light from the day spores are started.
RR





The bold part up above got me to thinking about if it is okay to incubate jars in the light, is it okay to incubate clear bulk substrate tubs in the light?


I ask because the closet I'm keeping some of these big tubs in is too hot (81-83 F). The depth of the substrate generates too much heat, as evidenced with 2 fermented tubs (I'm very confident that it was in large part the heat, in combination with slightly too wet a sub).

The only place with optimum incubation temps (72-75 F) is my fruiting room, which is needless to say, exposed to a daily light cycle of indirect sunlight through the blinds.

Any body have any luck incubating their bulk subs with ambient light?

The only problem I foresee is that you don't have much of a temperature drop for fruiting trigger with these large bins.... you pretty much have to incubate them at room temp (72-75 F) to avoid overheating/fermenting.

In addition, if they are incubated in the open light, they will lose the introduction of light as a fruiting trigger. I wonder if fresh air exchange will be enough of a trigger or if the pinset will suffer.

Thanks for any comments

Mark


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: mushroommark]
    #4285602 - 06/12/05 04:27 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not one to aruge with RR.

But I will say this. IME, Light has  caused slowed growth and pinning.

Have any Alum. Foil sitting around? :smirk:

And 81F might be a bit hot for bulk. I think it said they generate like 5+F...Not sure to be honest.I've colonized jars as high as 90F...But after that i'm sure you'd be pushing it...

-Gnostic


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #4285659 - 06/12/05 05:09 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And 81F might be a bit hot for bulk. I think it said they generate like 5+F...Not sure to be honest.I've colonized jars as high as 90F...But after that i'm sure you'd be pushing it...




No, you're exactly right.  81 F is definately too hot for bulk, especially when running a 4-inch substrate depth.


I can vouge after losing two subs to fermentation.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that before.

A couple other pros with similar problems have likely attributed the problem to overly hot temps (and a combination of overly wet substrate).

Recommended incubation temp for thick (4-inch) subs is 72/74 F (as per agar's recommendation). 

But since it's too big a bitch to keep the closet cool.... I'm just exploring other options of where I can keep these big ass tubs.

The foil idea would work, but man, oh man, what a bitch :smirk:

Also, I've considered using the 4-mil rolls of black plastic (in the paint sectin) from home depot to shield the tubs from light....

But after reading RR's post.... I started thinking they may do just fine out in the open.

Thanks though Gnostic.

Anyone else?


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Offlinemushroommark
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: mushroommark]
    #4285669 - 06/12/05 05:14 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Another thought about the incubation temp being around 75 F was from THIS THREAD

In it
Blue Helix says
Quote:

Colonization of the bed took six days in a room of about 75F. During that time the bed's core temperature was monitored and maintained at 84-88F by way of a PC cooling fan blowing across the bottom of the cropping container (as excessive heat from colonization was an issue).




Since BlueHelix was monitoring the sub's temperature, it would be further evidence that bulk subs should be incubated at 75 F. 72 - 74 F would be even more ideal because 88 F (as measured by BlueHelix) is a couple degrees warmer than optimum.


*EDIT*
A couple more thoughts about incubation temps of bulk subs comes from this same thread.

Blue Helix says
Quote:

By the way, the middle-of-the-substrate probe has really helped me with this run. I never had one in there before, and it opened my eyes. During the colonization run of the horse manure, I really saw how much a bed heats up. In the past, I'd been running the room WAY too hot for horse manure (which probably has led to some failures before and cores of around 93F). Now I know that running horse manure is more a matter of keeping the bed cool, not incubating it like you do jars. A bed of horse manure creates more than enough heat to incubate itself.





Same thread...
Mycofile says
Quote:

Good observation on those bed temps! Personally, I think this scenario applies to all bulk substrates be it staight straw, manure compost whatever. I've also noticed that higher spawn rates yield higher bed temps, which may be why I noticed so much thermogensis on all bulk substrates (why bother with low spawn rates?). I don't think I ever once incubated a bulk substrate at higher than room temps other than a few early experiments, most of which ended in bacterial contamination which is a common symptom of high temperature damage.





This is VERY important for those doing bulk subs, something I wish I'd been aware of before last week (and loosing 4 square feet of spawned h/poo).
Hope it helps

Anyone else with comments regard to lighting?


Edited by mushroommark (06/12/05 05:32 AM)


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OfflineWronguy
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: mushroommark]
    #4286129 - 06/12/05 11:42 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Temps, shmemps. The only temp I keep an eye on is the incubation of my WBS. Besides that, my tubs do great at the same temps using the Single/Double Tub teks. Room temperature takes care of everything I need. I have had great success growing at temps between 68-74 degrees with no artificial intervention.


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Offlinemushroommark
Earning mybluethumb

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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: Wronguy]
    #4286813 - 06/12/05 02:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That's the whole point I'm trying to make.

If you are not in an area with ambient temps of 68-75 then you're out of luck for bulk bins.

At higher temps, you need to keep a close eye on those thick sub beds to avoid overheating them leading to fermentation.

Now my problem is that in order to incubate at those temps you mention (68-74 F) the tubs will have to be exposed to light.
According to RogerRabbits quote up above, this may not be a problem.

Anyone else have any experience incubating (jars or casings) with light exposure?


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Offlineflow
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: mushroommark]
    #4287515 - 06/12/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

when i first started doing bulk, i was under the impression that i needed to incubate the tubs. since i didnt have enough room in the my incubator at the time, one tub was left out, covered in saran wrap with holes poked in it at about 72-76F it was exposed to light from the day it was spawned. the only problem caused by this was that it actually started to fruit before the compost was completely colonized. I actually saw pins in about 10 days. This was fine for the first flush, but during the second the uncolonized parts became contamed. so, if you are planning to case, or want to get multiple flushes (who doesnt) i would recommend leaving them in the dark. but if you just want one or two flushes as fast as possible, then expose to light from the start. peronally with a 4-5 in deep compost substrate, i incubate at about 75-77F in total darkness then case, and incubate at 75-77F in light, and as soon as the myc pops through i drop the temp about 5 degrees.
hope this helps.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: flow]
    #4287539 - 06/12/05 05:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

oh by the way you guys that incubate at lower than 72-74, what temps do you fruit at? 66-68? my power bill is way high trying to keep my place at 70 to fruit.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: flow]
    #4289660 - 06/13/05 02:25 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I do not want to have that thread necessarily have any definite statements about incubation of horse manure trays. That tray was 3.5 square feet and 3" deep of manure. Smaller trays like those 12-quart trays agar promotes, may or may not run as hot and should be monitored with one of those $15 temperature probes you can get at Walmart. The amount of heat during the spawn run can be highly variable in my experience. It depends on the amount of spawn used and how healthy the mycelium is.

As for fermentation, I just got done with having a total fermentation failure, the first time I've ever had that happen in fact. I am nearly positive it was a result of not soaking the manure and thus having too much nitrogen in the manure because it just happened to coincide with the first time I used a non-soak pasteurization technique. I cannot prove my suspicion, but I personally will never prepare manure again without a soak-based pasteurization whereby one pours off all the blackened water in the end.

I researched a little about manure fermentation through a quick search online. I found this:

Quote:

POSITIVE ASPECTS OF MANURE

About one-fifth of the nutrients which a horse eats are passed out in the manure and urine. If the manure is properly handled, about half of those excreted nutrients can be utilized by pasture or crop plants in one growing season with the balance being used in subsequent years. Horse manure is considered one of the most valuable of farm manures, being quite high in nitrogen and "hot" or capable of fermentation. A ton of horse manure will supply the equivalent of a one-hundred pound sack of 14-5-11 fertilizer as well as providing valuable organic matter and trace elements. Fertilizer numbers designate the nitrogen-phosphorus-potash content, in that order.




Unless you collected manure with plants growing out of it--which would prove its leeched most of its nitrogen--I would soak pasteurize it such that the free water touches the manure and can clean it up. I would use a cloth clothes bag ($1 a Walmart) or pillow case that isn't too big either, like limit it to 20 pounds a bag or so.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: Blue Helix]
    #4290533 - 06/13/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have had bad luck incubating in the light. Normally, it doesnt cause much of a problem...but it can.

Are your sides covered? If its just the top ayer getting the light, I wouldnt worry as much. If not just cover each bin on the sides, or throw a black trash bag over each bin...shouldnt be to tough to keep out light..at least most of it.

Either way, its never good to make a change to a large amount of bins at once, if you can avoid it at all. Try out one or a few and see how they come out, if no issues are noticed then the rest can be done that way..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4291966 - 06/13/05 05:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

This is a good thread for me. I just did my first attempt at bulking, but I was also using a new greenhouse for those bins. I have the exact same greenhouse already full of some non bulk that went extremely well. I have a very large incubation area, so I incubated my bulk trays at jar temps. Ooops I guess. The bins seemed to have colonized ok, but once put in the greenhouse, all bins died due to contam within 2-5 days. I tried to isolate as soon as I saw the first sign of contam. I had been thinking that maybe it was something due to the new greenhouse, but it may be due to this higher incubation temp. I will incubate at lower temps on the next bulk run and see how that helps. I also used store bought jiffy mix as casing mix for the first time. 3 new variables at once probably wasnt the best idea lol. But maybe I can rule out the greenhouse now. It is set up exactly the same as one that has been working correctly for 2months now.


--------------------
If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?


Edited by Underhillmaster (06/13/05 05:35 PM)


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Offlineflow
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Re: Incubating bulk trays: A question of lighting [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4292434 - 06/13/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"I can rule out the greenhouse now. It is set up exactly the same as one that has been working correctly for 2months now. "

maybe, maybe not remember it should still be about 5 degrees cooler than what you would use to fruit non bulk casings. but you're probly right.


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