Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Magic
    #4280125 - 06/10/05 01:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This is truly one of the most brilliant essays I've ever read, and was recommended by Phred [aka Pinksharkmark].

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000051.html

Many of you will not be disappointed, some of you will be threatened by his sledgehammer of logic and reason and a few of you may burst a blood vessel, as Phred mentioned. :grin:


But it's still a very well written and highly enjoyable read. :thumbup:



"For those frequent readers who believe in freedom, I am about to lay on y'all a gem beyond price. You will thank me for the rest of your lives for the following information. This man -- Bill Whittle -- has finally published his first book. I strongly suggest you buy a copy. Until you do, you can read a hell of a lot of what is in that book for free at his website, http://www.ejectejecjteject.com
I discovered his site over a year ago and have been reading each essay as he added it. One of my greatest pleasures was checking his site and finding he'd added a new essay. The titles of these essays are:

Honor
Freedom
Empire
War
Courage
Confidence
History
Victory
Magic
Trinity (part one)
Trinity (part two)
Responsibility
Power
Strength (part one)
Strength (part two)
Deterrence (part one)
Deterrence (part two)

I hope to hell he has more on the way. I've been reading political commentary for over three decades now, and there are many essayists worthy of recommendation (Mark Steyn, Michael Barone, Charles Krauthammer, PJ O'Rourke, Victor Davis Hanson, Norman Podhoretz and more), but Bill Whittle tops the list.

I suggest those frequenters of the PA&L forum who are of the anti-Capitalist, anti-American, pro-Michael Moore/Noam Chomsky/Howard Zinn Leftist tribe not read these essays. It'll only make you burst a blood vessel.

But for those who don't believe all good things come from government intervention, Whittle is required reading. One of personal favorites is "Magic", but they're all so good it's tough to single any of them out. I'd give my left nut to be able to write as well as Whittle does.

Enjoy.



Phred"





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280171 - 06/10/05 01:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

heh read a bunch of it, ill finish it later.


Nothing special, sadly =( . ( maybe if i read the rest of it itll get more interesting? )

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,063
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280195 - 06/10/05 01:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

it would make a good tv show.
edutainment


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 28 days
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280196 - 06/10/05 01:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Big fleas have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite ?em
And little fleas have lesser fleas
And so ad infinitum

(and these small fleas
of course, in turn
have larger fleas to go on
and larger still, and larger still,
and larger still, and so on)

Now?

--- I love that part :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280255 - 06/10/05 01:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't get what was so earth shattering for fred. S&Pers talk from that perspective all of the time. made this article boring and redundant.

I aprreciated one of his angles and that was how people tend not to marvel at the modern wonders before us like digital cameras, lazer eye surgery, space flight etc.

I think he over generalized that people do not do this because I do. I know how jumbo jets defy gravity but that doesn't stop me from watching one take off and from marveling at this massive heavy hunk of metal floating above the ground. I look at phots astronauts have taken of the planet and marvel at them and the view, even though it can be explained how the photo of our planet was accomplished.

I would like to ask the author why he wants me to marvel at my cell phone, which I do, but not at rainbows or shooting stars.

He says that people shouldn't want to beleive in the unexplainable and that it hinders us yet, our awe and fascination with the unexplainable is what drives science to get it explained. The two go together.

I have know idea what pinky found so fascinating or brilliant from that article. His logic, reasoning and generalizations were not well thought out.

Thats no reflection on you Skorp. What were you so impressed with in it?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280273 - 06/10/05 02:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Great read.

Miami, 1975. It?s Friday night and I?m on the roof of the Southern Cross Observatory at the Museum of Science and Space Transit Planetarium.

By a magical coincidence, I was on the Board of Directors of the Southern Cross Astronomical Society in Miami years ago.  :mushroom2:

It's a small world...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/10/05 02:26 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280326 - 06/10/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

ok, i finished it.

He did a great job at driving home a simple point, but I feel he fell prey to his own criticism of laziness. He took great effort to bring examples up to the point that the conclusion seems obvious, but skimped on making any final conclusion. How disappointing =(

I'd like to argue how the Enlightenment was essentially a failure and that its failure is what spawned Romanticism ( which is essentially what he is trying to criticize ), but I don't think he'd be very keen to the point. Personally, what amuses me is what crap the Enlightment people loved for art ( Rococo - pretty, delightful but pointless and full of crap .. you'd think they'd like the opposite? ). Those same people prissed around in pretty pink robes thinking artifice in conversation was the most important thing while they wrote their intelluctual pieces. Clowns.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: vampirism]
    #4280541 - 06/10/05 03:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Skorp, are you being sarcastic? I actually think that's a pretty dangerous read...clouding the mind and all. I'm all for reason, as is the author. I'm all for testing hypotheses and ameliorating them. I'm no hedonist. Self-imposed laws are helpful to nurture maturity, focus, and discipline.

But what is this guy talking about, honestly? Yes, it is important to work from a foundation and build upon it. Speaking from a mystical perspective, it's his foundation I take issue with. He seems to think his foundation is where he is presently at. It's what's there. There is nothing beyond the physical, and upon the physical he builds.

My foundation is Nothing. Note the capital N. This is at the heart of the issue, exemplifying the differences between the mystical and scientific perspective. But I don't even want to say it that way, because mysticism and science are hardly mutually exclusive.

The point is, one's foundation must be searched for. It is not a 'given'. One's foundation is not how things are at the present, as one understands them. There is something more, something beyond materialism. We are not yet perfect, we do not yet know our foundation. There *is* deeper to go, and it's towards this depth, and not convention, that we should be headed.

Once this depth is explored, and the foundation of Nothingness realized, then convention can be created better than ever. Then convention can be magically created. To create the 1 that follows 0, we must first embrace the 0 and become the 0. This is the most basic and primary foundation.

From Nothing is anything possible because there are no restraints. So the goal is to realize a foundation as subtle as possible. Just follow anything--anything at all--all its way and you arrive at Nothing. Everything extends into infinite and Nothing.

People like the author are afraid of death and afraid to go backwards. It's vital to go backwards, dismantle current misconceptions, and realize a proper foundation, before going forwards and building on it. Either first there can be clumsy construction, or first there can be deconstruction followed by refined construction.

Strict science/logic is clumsy. It's like a young child with one of those toys where you insert shapes into their appropriate holes. You have to put the triangle shape into the triangle hole, and not the square hole, and so on. But science posits hypotheses that must be proven or disproven, so each piece is tried into every hole, and eventually the right combination is found. It would be easier to mentally visualize what goes where and get it right the first time. I only 'guess 'n check' when I have to.

A subtle foundation means you can't fall back on it for safety or comfort, so you must be a self-realized individual. A subtle foundation is one with the present moment, not separate from it in distracting metaphysical doctrine. A subtle foundation *is* every action I do, that constantly reaffirms itself. A proper foundation includes what is built upon it. The 0 of Nothingness is only threatening if considered in isolation from the 1 it begats.

So everything is one and everything is essentially Nothing. A concrete foundation refuses to retract into this Nothingness, and indeed it is a foundation--a foundation for the ego. A foundation against the entropy that is scary only to those who cannot find order in chaos, who cannot embrace Nothing, and who cannot accept that magic just might exist.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4280605 - 06/10/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Speaking from a mystical perspective, it's his foundation I take issue with. He seems to think his foundation is where he is presently at. It's what's there. There is nothing beyond the physical, and upon the physical he builds.

I don't see where he says anything about this. Maybe I missed a sentence or two, could you please point this out, and then we'll make progress? :smile:

[And no, I wasn't being sarcastic at all, and I already understand the overall premise of Nothingness that you took the time to describe.]




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/10/05 05:16 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4280833 - 06/10/05 05:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Dude, I don't know about that response. Your basis is Nothingness but why? How do you know there is something beyond the physical? How do you have the ability to mentally gauge something and "get it right the first time" and only "guess and check" when you have to. Do you honestly think you could do better than all the dedicated scientists experimenting and observing their asses off because you have a foundation of "Nothingness", just because you believe in Nothingness? Your Nothingness is based on just that, Nothingness.

I'd have to say this article is very good.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4280960 - 06/10/05 05:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I mean to say that we should not suppose our current foundations are absolutes. They are temporary platforms from which we may find a solid foundation. Materialism fails to explain so much that it isn't solid enough to serve as a foundation, only a platform.

If people look for something beyond the physical from a context of materialism that is regarded as an absolute foundation, then Nothingness will *never* be found. There can always be a logical answer to any question, that simply has yet to be discovered. A hypothesis can always be created to fill a missing link. But most importantly, if mystery is not even seen and considered, then it will never be explored.

So if we don't have a solid foundation, that's a risky proposition unsettling to many. This first step is denied by many. Yet only after embracing this delicate uncertainty can a more solid foundation be found. It is found within the uncertainty, within the mystery of ineffability, as opposed to within that which is already explained and understood.

The relative state of affairs that scares so many, is itself the very foundational framework saught and realized by others. In the same vein as saying that "nothing is absolute" is itself an absolute, that "nothing is anything but relative" is not relative.

The author says: As usual, [post-modernists] have gotten it exactly wrong. It is true that no one can re-learn every lesson they have learned throughout their entire lives every day. To build on knowledge, to grow smarter, to become educated, is to add layers based on the existing foundations.

It is not a question of re-learning every lesson, but of rethinking the founding framework upon which every lesson was learnt. Then one's world model may topple all at once, in a calculated fashion. It's necessary to remove layers before adding. When the pile gets too thick, if the truth is reached, can all former layers in contradiction with the truth be overcome? Bah, a nonsensical question, since the truth will never be found if vision is distorted by too many layers of perception.

The author says of post-modernists: Post-modernists will look at this and come to the conclusion that because we all have these internal clich?s, all truth is relative, there is no objective reality, and a nineteen-year-old English Lit student knows the true meaning of Hamlet better than Shakespeare does.

All truth *is* relative, and therein lies the key to transcend relativity, a kind of absolute that is the relative backbone of the universe. For relativity think chaos, and then think fractal order that is only apparent upon consideration of the bigger picture. Built on a false foundation, subsequently distorted layers hide this bigger picture and the order in chaos.

Objective reality exists in the sense that everything is (relatively) true. Everything is relative in relation to everything else, but exists in-and-of-itself. Superficially (physically) these selves are individual, but essentially they are the common Nothingness connecting all.

Everything is relatively true. My reflection is not me, but nor is it non-existent. Everything relative exists to the extent that who or whatever is considering it from a given perspective (which accounts for the relative slant/bias in question) also exists. A falsehood is true to those who believe in it. So everything is contingent on everything else, forming a huge web or matrix or interconnectedness.

The author says there is no objective reality, and that's true, because nothing can be considered in total isolation. There's nothing that exists absolutely, separate from everything else; everything exists contingently.

So what exists absolutely, separate from everything else? Nothing!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4281028 - 06/10/05 06:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The author says: As usual, [post-modernists] have gotten it exactly wrong. It is true that no one can re-learn every lesson they have learned throughout their entire lives every day. To build on knowledge, to grow smarter, to become educated, is to add layers based on the existing foundations.

It is not a question of re-learning every lesson, but of rethinking the founding framework upon which every lesson was learnt. Then one's world model may topple all at once, in a calculated fashion. It's necessary to remove layers before adding. When the pile gets too thick, if the truth is reached, can all former layers in contradiction with the truth be overcome? Bah, a nonsensical question, since the truth will never be found if vision is distorted by too many layers of perception.



Yes, that's fine and all, but, I don't see how this shows that he holds a notion of nothing being beyond the physical. Furthermore, what if he meant ?existing foundations? in a pluralistic sense? Who?s to say which of many assumptions is more accurate?


Reading the rest of your post, it sounds to me like you?ve already answered your own questions/misunderstandings about the article and the author. You do have to understand that he is a political essayist writing from the ground of relativity, instead of ?The? ground as most spiritual authors do for their special purposes and different audiences.

Edit:
Oh... if you meant that "cliches" are synonymous with falsehood, or if that is how you interpreted the author... then I misinterpreted you. Damn the communication barriers!
[Is this so?]



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/10/05 06:26 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4281093 - 06/10/05 06:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Not a bad essay, of course, but something I have never really liked about Whittle's writtings are how he uses the tactics he preeches against. Such as making assertions without evidence. He does that just as much as the next guy, I'm afriad  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4281288 - 06/10/05 07:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have know idea what pinky found so fascinating or brilliant from that article.




Re-read what I said. I have read all of his essays more than once. "Magic" is one of my personal favorites, but that is not to say that it (or any other single one of his essays) is necessarily "fascinating" to me. There's nothing in that particular essay I didn't already know. But I like the way he writes. Simple, straightforward, honest. Everything he aserts is easily verifiable. But he doesn't bore you to tears and his essays are accessible to even the dimmest denizen of the PA&L forum.

Quote:

His logic, reasoning and generalizations were not well thought out.




You're not serious.

As it happens, "Magic" especially appeals to me because of Whittle's delightful skewering of that mendacious old fraud Noam Chomsky. Whittle describes in a lot fewer words than I have (in my previous posts on Chomsky in the PA&L forum) old Noam's sleight of hand. He also pins the propagandist Michael Moore to the mat, and his example of deceiving through omission (see the bit on Robert Wayne Jernigan) is such a masterful sendup of the way the Libbie mainstream media operates that I must tip my hat to the man.

Since I wrote the post Skorpio quoted from, Whittle has written a new one -- Sanctuary. It is a must read. Possibly his best so far, but as I said earlier they are all so good it really is difficult to rank any of them above the rest. Even if it isn't Whittle's personal best, it's probably the best discourse on the topic of sanctuary that I've yet read from anyone, even including Victor Davis Hanson, and it is no mean feat to outdo VDH. Whittle is that good.

Check out "Sanctuary, Part One" at http://www.ejectejecteject.com/

I anxiously await Part Two.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Phred]
    #4281401 - 06/10/05 08:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I can understand that. i think in the original post, a lot of hype was built up for it and nothing in it was a new perspective that hasn't been beaten to death in here in S&P in the last year I have been reading here.

Yes, he has a nice gliding writing style that is easy going.

The part where I said his reasoning is mixed up is when he spoke of our fascination with the unexplainable as being a dangerous thing. Without it, science wouldn't have a reason to explain anything.

He wanted one without the other and it can't be that way. They go together.

He still seems fascinated with his visit by the leprechaun. He doesn't practice what he preaches, that's all. Tren caught the same dance.

Thanks for sharing your appreciation of his work. Other perspectives always help to round us out.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Magic [Re: Phred]
    #4281475 - 06/10/05 08:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Everything he aserts is easily verifiable.



I wouldn't say so. He left little clues everywhere without actually making a truly solid argument. In all of his examples he carries out one simple example- the black sand if you will- and presents it as the beach.



My own position is essentially trendal + pheonix.

What bothers me about his approach is that essentially, for him, everything is impossible until it is shown otherwise. The people he criticizes are the ones who open themselves to all possibilities- to nothing being impossible. Which do you think contributes more to the creation of the machines he praises? It's foolish to say that science is an inventor. Science collects data and categorizes it- it is individuals with the will to try something "impossible" that make the "real magic." It is the union of irrational and rational which creates this magic of his.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4282241 - 06/11/05 12:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
S&Pers talk from that perspective all of the time. made this article boring and redundant.




Rather, you made the article boring and redundant for yourself. You display here the same mentality that this article seems to be lashing out agansit. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefreddurgan
Techgnostic
Male

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 3,648
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Magic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4282312 - 06/11/05 01:15 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

How can we attempt to jump the the conclusion that the material world is not our base absolute platform when we have so much more to discover about it? Baby steps. Science is about our world and for a very long time we will and should be bound by a materialist ideal because that's our limitation. We can't and won't be able to prove anything about a non-material world for some time.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4282489 - 06/11/05 02:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

A pluralistic sense, I didn't catch that. I rather like Chomsky, and I didn't realize the author was a political essayist. Heh I guess I just don't jive with such scepticism. Notin gainst you. :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4282564 - 06/11/05 04:21 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
How can we attempt to jump the the conclusion that the material world is not our base absolute platform when we have so much more to discover about it?




In the same manner that one can jump to the conclusion that the movie they are watching on one's television is not actually a memory of one's own experience, and in similar manners. :nut:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4283226 - 06/11/05 11:18 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

FW,  your selective reading is showing. I am the only one who said that I actually do marvel at modern scientific wonders like airplanes and cell phones, what he was speaking in support of.  :wink:

His not realizing that it also takes takes a marveling of what can be that leads to new scientific discovery is a redundant and boorish them to ME. I am entitled to pay attention and remember enough of what I read here to make that observation and personal opinion comment about a redundant theme of adults who can't put two and two toegther..

Maybe it keeps coming up because people either don't get it or don't want to get it because they are afraid of the power of the dreamer. They build sky scrapers, rockets, canals, pace makers and write books like Star Wars.

Modern marvels came into being because someone first tapped into the world of imagination, of what can be possible when at a time it wasn't.

Perhaps, I could change the word boring to laughable. For some guy to tell me I should appreciate the material modern marvels of man(which I do) but not the imagination and beliefs of those who make the impossible possible and the unreal real is a laughable request.

Had the article not been presented with any hype, I would not have replied.

If a movie gets a lot of hype and I go to see it and find it was poorly thought out, I will tell people. I may also tell them the graphics were really good though. I did say he has a nice, easy to read writing style.

Am I the only one who noticed how much he enjoyed replaying his fascination with the leprechaun after telling us we shouldn't do such things if we see them?  Maybe that childhood encounter is what led to his searching for his pot of gold as a political essayist.

Had he not spent a portion of his childhood looking for the leprechauns pot of gold because he believed it existed, he may have become a garbage man. The time he spent dreaming of finding fame and fortune with the discovery of the pot of gold was most likely a pivotal point in his life that inspired him to find it through other means and he's still writing about it and can't see that he may have something to appreciate the leprechaun for afterall.

You never know where peoples imaginations, dreams, inspirations and beliefs of the unreal and impossible will take them. Maybe it'll be the moon one day. Oh wait, that one already happened.

I can see him saying, "Son, just marvel at the gadgetry of modern science but do not dare conceive of anything you can not see and believe it to be a real possibility lest you become an innovator and create more modern wonders for people to marvel at. It's dangerous son"

With progress comes risk.

I haven't seen people who believe in fairies dropping H-Bombs on children and creating 3 headed babies through Chernobyl type accidents. I did marvel at the radiation burns and the 7 legged frogs I saw in film footage of Chernobyl. It was amazing.
He would be proud of me. :grin:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 28 days
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283229 - 06/11/05 11:18 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

lol


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283251 - 06/11/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't seen people who believe in fairies dropping H-Bombs on children

People who believe in fairies have never done anything for mankind but believe in fairies and watch ill children die while helplessly praying for their recovery; the rest of us developed the science of radiation oncology which cures children with leukemia. :syringe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4283268 - 06/11/05 11:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

We have already compared the benefits of mysticism and science. When mystics and theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of man, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins; they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones.

The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of today. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of today -- of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor -- than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars. Neither were they searched for with holy candles or mystical powers. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience, and for them all, man is indebted to man. -- Robert Ingersoll


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283272 - 06/11/05 11:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh please, enough already. If you would actually read the text without distorting it via your own fears, you would see that Whittle certainly has nothing against imagination or the "unexplainable" and such.

You said:
The part where I said his reasoning is mixed up is when he spoke of our fascination with the unexplainable as being a dangerous thing. Without it, science wouldn't have a reason to explain anything.

What the author actually said:


Magical thinking is everywhere today, and it is growing. It threatens the foundations of reason, individualism, science and objectivity that have delivered this success so well and for so long. It is dangerous. If we are to continue to thrive and progress, then we need to sharpen some sticks and drive a stake through the heart of this monster, and right quick.

I?ll use the term Magical Thinking as a pretty big umbrella to cover a whole host of creeping intellectual chicanery: superstition, wishful thinking, pseudoscience, unsubstantiated claims, assertion, mysticism and anti-science.



Emphasis mine. Yes, notice the bold, black letters.

That simple message does not mean "fascination with the unexplainable is a dangerous thing", as you put it. :smile:

C'mon, give Bill Whittle s'more credit than that, Jiggy. :wink:


And if you are to reply, as I'm sure you will, please try to make your points explicit and succinct. :grin:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4283327 - 06/11/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Au Contraire Skorp! He is the one calling things dangerous (implying we have something to fear) and suggests we should drive stakes into the heart of things ( same implication of reaction to something he feels threatened by) Magical thinking doesn't threaten or scare me. It inspires me. Who is the one in fear? Ahem.

How is this for being explicit and succinct;

I agree with everything he says.

Jiggy goes off to find her stake and the hearts of magicians.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283399 - 06/11/05 12:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

magic is another word for skill or technique unknown to the viewer.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283409 - 06/11/05 12:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think you missed it again.

I'll try once more.


First of all, of course I don't think you would ever be one to fear 'magical thinking'. You're one of the last people on that list, rest assured.

Now, considering that you re-read what Bill Whittle defined as magical-thinking in my previous post, and with your following statement thereafter:

Magical thinking doesn't threaten or scare me. It inspires me.

It seems increasingly discernible [as was my original point] that you were threatened by Bill Whittle?s sledgehammering on the umbrella-of-magical-thinking, which was supported by the observation that you misinterpreted Whittle?s words for something else, and is now even more bolstered by your own words above.

Again, your interpretation:

he spoke of our fascination with the unexplainable as being a dangerous thing

It seems you simply intimated precisely what you felt was being ?attacked? by Whittle?s essay, due to your own preconceptions and fears clouding your rational, logical thinking abilities and reading comprehension.

You projected what was on your mind, and thus the sharp irrelevancy was shown between Whittle's actual words, and your own thoughts.

As Swami would say for the umpteenth time: "Do you normally respond to words that are not there?"

A mind clear of such "clouds" would've read it quite fine, I think.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/11/05 12:54 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283443 - 06/11/05 12:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
FW,  your selective reading is showing. I am the only one who said that I actually do marvel at modern scientific wonders like airplanes and cell phones, what he was speaking in support of.  :wink:




Regardless of how selective my reading is (even though I do not personally feel that it is selective at all), your state of contradicting yourself is showing. In one moment you speak of all of your marvel for the world, but yet in the previous moment, you speak of how boring and trite the message this man proposes regarding that marvel is, as you feel it is rendundant.

But perhaps this is not yourself contradicting yourself, it is merely the fact that you are so multi-dimensional and infinitely-faceted shining through? :smirk: If you cannot get through someone's creatively expressed words without getting so caught up in feeling it redundant and boring that you express it to others, it is difficult to imagine you marveling everytime your cell phone emits a sound byte from The Mexican Hat Dance. :grin:

Quote:


Perhaps, I could change the word boring to laughable. For some guy to tell me I should appreciate the material modern marvels of man(which I do) but not the imagination and beliefs of those who make the impossible possible and the unreal real is a laughable request.




I would chance to think that you have a misconception of what this man is speaking of. There is a difference between an imaginative and creative man who envisions a glimpse of a future that he can then take steps towards bringing into being, using the current state of his environment as a stepping stone towards that, and someone who is caught up in their own illogical delusions that they see a shadow on a wall and scream about the very real presence of ghosts in their household. One is based in logic and reason, this one seeks to use reason and logic and actual knowledge of what is to thereby bring into being something not in existance yet, or obtain insight and understanding that was before that unheard of. One actively envisions and seeks and the other daydreams out as a means of escapism and refusal of the natural state of the reality in which they exist. :lol:

One is at the forefront of creation and being while the other is seperated, confused, and unaware. One is solely responsible for the creations of mankind that you marvel at, while the other is responsible for the seperating riptide that sucks humanity's progress and the advances the first one produces into destructive, unaware oblivion.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4283520 - 06/11/05 01:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Skorp,

I succintly and explicitly recanted and said that I agree with everything he said as he said it. I have my stake in hand and am hunting down the hearts of magicians. They are Dangerous Skorp! Didn't you read what he said? I get it now.

It was so silly of me to question or scrutinise his writing. What was I thinking when I chose to have a mind of my own and express my views and opinions of his. I mean, did you look at his title? He is a Political Essayist. :yesnod: :bow:

My bad. Now grab your torches and stakes men, we have witches to hunt. These people who have wishes are halting our scientific progress. Whitley will lead the way and we will be his followers and agree with everything he says.






BTW Skorp, wasn't it you who posted on how we choose roles play and wasn't it you who posted on how we should have a personality and strongly express it? Now you are telling me I have to play the role you want me to play and have to modify my personality and mind to make it more like yours. What gives? Just make a puppet and called it jiggy and make it say in replies what you want me to say.

That'll give me more time to go shopping. I am now wishing for a new bed set ensemble. And by this evening, I will have shopped the mall, chosen some items, paid for them and will have made my wish come true. Modern Magic Rocks and it really works too! :kiss: Oh fuck, now where did I leave my wand, I mean wallet.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4283589 - 06/11/05 01:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

A brutally honest and extremely thought provoking article. Many thanks for posting this!  :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4283605 - 06/11/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Now you are telling me I have to play the role you want me to play and have to modify my personality and mind to make it more like yours.

Amazing. This is yet ANOTHER example of reading miscomprehension. All I did was point out discrepancies in your postulations. I am certainly no control-freak and am not trying to "mold you". :grin:

I'm just sucking back a beer and clawing on my intellectual-scratching post... [need some bandaids and neosporin?]

It's all part of The Game Jiggy. :mypleasure:

Can you handle it? :smile:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4284747 - 06/11/05 09:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I thought we were discussing an article you posted. Now we are playing a game and post scratching is a part of it? :confused:

I think you have had enough beer for the day Skorp. :wink:

Handle what? A post in a message board forum? The laughter generated from it has been manageable so far, thank you for asking.

This guy is a literary character to be sure. He imagines invisible giant umbrellas covering people with imagined magical powers and says stakes must be driven into their hearts. He does this after telling us about the leprechauns he use to see and chase around as a child. :faded: :drunk:

How seriously can I take it?

Then he says the people he imagines to be dangerous cough*paranoid*cough because they believe in things we can't see, like for instance (giant invisible umbrellas) are halting his progress. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay dude!

I'm from the philosophy that we are, our own worst enemies and I think this guy needs to look in the mirror and lay off the sauce. For him to think that people are hiding under the protection of magical invisible umbrellas and are out to keep him from progressing sounds delusional and paranoid to me.

He says superstitious types are halting progress while he is encouraging people to get the stakes and kill the vampires. He sounds like a superstitious type to me. I thought civilization progressed beyond that sort of thing. He is the one holding himself back in the dark ages. If he hasn't progressed beyond fears of boogie men then he is a part of whom he says is his problem.  Skorp, you don't see his double talk?

I think the advise he gives to others is what he is ignoring to apply to himself. Doesn't make him a bad person, just an average one.

What Tren and Morrowmind said sums up my serious opinion on the article. That's all it is, an opinion, a perspective. The rest is me having fun with it. Peace out of this one. :peace:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4286533 - 06/12/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I thought we were discussing an article you posted.




Dicussion implies two sides communicating on the same subject. I do not see that here; what I see is one person making an honest attempt to discuss and debate the points raised concerning the article and what the other has stated, and the other completely ignoring those points, instead deciding to rant on this person's own delusions that are not evidenced in the article itself or the other sides of the discussion concerning the article.

Quote:


Handle what? A post in a message board forum? The laughter generated from it has been manageable so far, thank you for asking.




It is amazing to consider this, but some people do violently react to posts in message boards, even those boards that are simply dedicated to the discussion of ideas, not the participators themselves. It is amazing that some people are so vested in their ideas and beliefs that they react when they are challenged and feel threatened and make the discussions personal. :shocked:

Quote:


This guy is a literary character to be sure. He imagines invisible giant umbrellas covering people with imagined magical powers and says stakes must be driven into their hearts. He does this after telling us about the leprechauns he use to see and chase around as a child. :faded: :drunk:




He definitely is a literary character, and, because of this, he often uses literary devices, to illustrate a point in an abstract manner, perhaps, or to produce a certain subsequent thought. What I find amazing is that some of us read these literary devices as literal, face-value statements. They tend to appear as if they are delusional when they rant agansit aspects of the article that aren't actually there, these delusions resulting from their misinterpretation of the article itself, of course. :wink: Reading comprehension skills = k3y.

Quote:


How seriously can I take it?




As seriously as you want to take it.

Quote:


Then he says the people he imagines to be dangerous cough*paranoid*cough because they believe in things we can't see, like for instance (giant invisible umbrellas) are halting his progress. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay dude!




People who are not capable of understanding and intrepreting reality as it is naturally presented to them do halt the progress of clear-thinking individuals who are capable. These people do not have the capacity to realize the world for what it is, and instead substitute their own delusions and definitions. This interupts the progress of those who actively seek to know reality for reality. :wink:

Quote:


I'm from the philosophy that we are, our own worst enemies and I think this guy needs to look in the mirror and lay off the sauce. For him to think that people are hiding under the protection of magical invisible umbrellas and are out to keep him from progressing sounds delusional and paranoid to me.




Yes, the author honestly thinks that. :rolleyes:

I think it is far more delusional to read literary devices as literal statements and to debate one's own delusions.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4286770 - 06/12/05 12:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Dude, I posted some simple opinions in my first reply as I felt ther hype it was presented with didn't measure up. I am entitled to do that am I not, unless you want to start controlling my freedom of speech too now.

A few seemed to not have saw some of what tren, morrow and I saw so I thought if I started putting it in a humorous and ridiculous light, the could better see it. Sometimes, small things need to be exagerated to be seen, like blowing up a picture or using a microscope.

The whole of the article was an average writing from an average man. It had some thoughtful views and some immaturish views. Some people couldn't see the immaturish parts about him being afraid of magicians so I pointed it out in an immaturish way to see the humor in it. I said it doesn't make him a bad person, just an average one. Some adults are afraid of clowns.

Is the solution to kill what we fear and ask questions later or make an attempt to understand it? He propses killing magicians versus understanding why beleifs in the unseen have been a natural part of human existance. It has a purpose that goes hand in hand with beleifs in the seen. Many things around you today came into your view and hands because someone, imagined, dreamed of, beleived in them or wished for them first.

What cannot you not comprehend about that? I think everyone up to this point got it except for you. Thats all I am highlighting here.

If you have a personal problem with my style of doing that sometimes, then, its your problem to work out isn't it?  I would rewrite everything I wrote here and be at total ease with it. Keep criticising me and my style, you won't change who I am.

At least I kept on topic for the most part. All of your replies here are your personal opinions of me. I didn't see this post entitled "Vent your frutstrations with Jiggy Here". You keep trying to make this post about me, you want to talk about, me.

You must be really in love or in hate with me to be paying me so much personal attention in a post about a politcal essayists article and where I saw some flaws mixxed in with the good stuff.

Whats that saying in Hollywood, "Any press is good press". You are making a celebrity out of my here by turning topics into being all about Jiggy. Pretty soon, I might reach swami celebrity status and people will start posts on me like they do him.

Quit giving your power away to me and then the things I say won't bother you so much. You have 3 long replies here dedicated to me and not the post article or author of it. Thats pretty flattering and amusing.

If you want to talk about me all day be my guest. The energy you are sending my way will help me get my errands done more easily. Thank you for all the attention, you're too kind. :kiss:

I have nothing more new to say on the article or author without becoming redundant and boring myself. I think the readers here wanted to discuss the article not me. If I am wrong, then someone as into me as you are should just start a post on me.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4286886 - 06/12/05 01:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you, Fireworks.

And Jiggy, on a personal note, I'd also like to add the observation of what striked me most after reading your last post, is that it seems during your course of time here, you have not truly learned that a very fundamental principle of adult, mature and honest debate is dissecting ideas, not people.

You repeatedly take Whittle's words absurdly literally [I think you know better than that, but I can't be too sure.], and twist, warp and distort them to fit your own personal conflicts, making him appear as if he were a complete, blind idiot spouting such baloney Mahoney as:

" people he imagines to be dangerous cough*paranoid*cough because they believe in things we can't see"

[Which is NOT truthful, you will NOT find anywhere in the article where he says that.]

And

?like for instance (giant invisible umbrellas) are halting his progress?

[Riiight.]

Or

" imagines invisible giant umbrellas covering people with imagined magical powers and says stakes must be driven into their hearts"

[Again, a false fabrication.]

In reality Whittle addressed the ideologies, as I will once more, outline here for all to see:

Magical thinking is everywhere today, and it is growing. It threatens the foundations of reason, individualism, science and objectivity that have delivered this success so well and for so long. It is dangerous. If we are to continue to thrive and progress, then we need to sharpen some sticks and drive a stake through the heart of this monster, and right quick.

I?ll use the term Magical Thinking as a pretty big umbrella to cover a whole host of creeping intellectual chicanery: superstition, wishful thinking, pseudoscience, unsubstantiated claims, assertion, mysticism and anti-science.


Again, notice the bold. That is what Bill Whittle is referring to as ?Magical Thinking?.

Yet, your own inner conflictions and fears that arose from your own preconceptions [defenses] have distorted your perceptions of reality. If this isn't alarming to you, Jiggy, then that in itself is even more alarming.


And you even claim that Bill Whittle is actually advocating murdering magicians. Please, oh please, show me where he says that.

And you repeatedly bring up Tren and Morrowind sharing your view? Tren and Morrowind are not going completely nuts over imagined things that Bill Whittle never said. You, on the other hand?

He propses killing magicians versus understanding why beleifs in the unseen have been a natural part of human existance.

The funny thing is, you are doing *precisely* what Bill Whittle detests, despises and actually talks about in his essay in regards to Noam Chomsky, Micheal Moore, et al.

You have the nerve to proclaim that Bill Whittle is immature, yet you display brazen, delusional dishonesty. The irony is too much.




If I were someone with ego that had a hair-trigger of a defense, maybe I would be insulted by the fact that you try to fool us into your own delusional conflictions as being the truth of the matter. But honestly, I can only become amused, as if I were witnessing a child attempting to pretend that he didn't eat the chocolate bars from the jar when chocolate is smeared all over his face, the jar is wide open, and wrappers are in his hands behind his back. It's just plain absurd!




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/12/05 01:14 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4286917 - 06/12/05 01:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If you honestly believe that I think he was not talking metaphorically but was actually asking people to go physically kill others then you have lost your mind Skorp.

Now I see whats going on with the special interest you and fireworks have taken in me.

You both jumped to the conclusion and delusion that I was taking and speaking of his words in a literal sense.

OMG :rotfl:  Why you did that is for either of you to examine.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4286948 - 06/12/05 01:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So, for example, you say [emphasis mine]:

Is the solution to kill what we fear and ask questions later or make an attempt to understand it? He propses killing magicians versus understanding why beleifs in the unseen have been a natural part of human existance. It has a purpose that goes hand in hand with beleifs in the seen. Many things around you today came into your view and hands because someone, imagined, dreamed of, beleived in them or wished for them first.

with the intention to exaggerate Bill Whittle [I will overlook the fact that it is even a BASELESS exaggeration] for the purpose of showing he lacked evidence?





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4286989 - 06/12/05 01:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Modern marvels came into being because someone first tapped into the world of imagination, of what can be possible when at a time it wasn't.

Jigz, this is a skewed perception.

What is true is that science discovered virtually all the knowledge we have today through the use of the scientific method, not through imagination.

Later, that knowledge was put to use though engineering, which is partly imagination, yes, but it is mostly imagination-free applied science.

So you see, imagination actually played a fairly small roll in the development of the world we live in while the objective, quantitative, imagination-free scientific method takes the lion's share of the credit.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/12/05 04:22 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Magic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4287005 - 06/12/05 01:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

It is amazing to consider this, but some people do violently react to posts in message boards, even those boards that are simply dedicated to the discussion of ideas, not the participators themselves. It is amazing that some people are so vested in their ideas and beliefs that they react when they are challenged and feel threatened and make the discussions personal. :shocked:






Indeed they do. Some just can't understand that just because you disagree with them, that doesn't necessarily make you their enemy. I've run into a few that take things here and elsewhere waaaay too seriously. I find it best to just bow out of the conversation as gracefully as possible....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4287397 - 06/12/05 03:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I won't argue with that diploid. That's another way I can see it. Like how science can study how it is a bird can defy gravity and fly and apply some of those principles of physics to the development of an aircraft people can fly it.

Where did the desire or idea for people to fly come from? Someone had to believe it was possible and doable before it was proven so. Many even failed at it and couldn't prove it possible at first.

I appreciate your scratching enough to see where it has its place in development and progress. The two can work well together, why break up a great match?

To often they are pitted against each other when each can help the other realize even more then they could alone.

And of course I took the authors comments metaphorically which is why in my first two replies, I related the article to S&P discussions.

Many want to kill off imagination, wishful thinking, beliefs, day dreaming, entertaining far off possibilities etc. NOT the people who engage in those activities. I think it's wishful thinking to believe in the possibility of an imagined world where they no longer are in play and that it is entertaining a far off possibility.

What not look to what aspects of them are harmful and which are helpful and get these abilities of the human being to better serve us and work with us and not against us.

There is a lot of power in our abilities to wish, dream, imagine and entertain fantasy. Most are just very poor at harnessing it and using it to serve and benefit them. It's true, many use them to their own harm and detriment. I can't argue with that either.

Many inventors got ideas from dreams. A creative imagination can help with trouble shooting to find new ways of doing things when we hit dead ends. There is virtue in many of these human abilities and I think progress all together would end up halted without them being used purposefully and constructively with focused intention for accomplishing goals. :cheers:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4287542 - 06/12/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Where did the desire or idea for people to fly come from?

Imagination! Absolutely!

The two can work well together, why break up a great match?

Well, the issue is this. Not knowing how a bird flies is not the same as imagining that it flies due to magic. In other words, it's better to say "I don't know how a bird flies" than it is to make up an explanation unsupported by any evidence as in "A bird flies by virtue of supernatural powers".

See the difference?

This applies to UFOs for example. It's better to say "I don't know what that light was" than it is to jump to an unfounded conclusion that it was an alien craft. This is especially true given the complete lack of evidence save some fuzzy pics that I could make in 10 minutes with a $5 camera, some plastic plates, a piece of string, and a laser pointer.

From the acknowledgment of ignorance (I don't know how it works) rather than arrogantly calling a phenomenon magic springs forth the search for Truth. Calling it magic only hinders progress and this fact is borne out by history.

Progress was hindered when Galileo was trying to advance the cause of astronomy and was threatened with torture and placed under arrest by people insisting in the mystical explanation even when the evidence was clearly showing they were wrong.

It happens today when primitive south Americans refuse vaccines due to their superstition and so die of smallpox.

This is what Whittle is talking about: imagining up a mystical explanation when there is no basis for it rather than just saying "I don't know" and going forward from there.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/12/05 04:06 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4287597 - 06/12/05 04:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I see the difference. I have said in the past that I think all current inexplicable phenomonon will be explained by science once we have the tools and methods developed.

For the record, I don't believe in a God being.

Granted, there are people who have all sorts of beleifs I don't, that I think may be harmful to them or hold them back, however, I can circumnavigate them pretty well and don't let them hold me and my progress in life up.

I realize christian beleifs are holding up stem cell research. However, thats only in america I think. Other scientist on the globe are still pushing ahead with it.

I honestly don't know of any one belief that is universally holding science progress back for the whole of the planet, do you? I say, blast around them where ever however you can. Just because some choose to hold themselves back or harm themslves doesn't mean we all have to. We can continue to progress, around them. If the will is there, there is always a way. I find it which is probably why, I don't feel the threat others do.

edit-spelling typos


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/12/05 04:17 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4287652 - 06/12/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


This is what Whittle is talking about: imagining up a mystical explanation when there is no basis for it rather than just saying "I don't know" and going forward from there.




This is the fundamental part that he got right. I would argue his argumentive style and arguments themselves were rather flawed. In order to make a point, he completely skewed examples to make his point, as in his anti-war example. Are you telling me the entire article was a great read because he started off with one unshakable premise? I might as well write an article with only the core "logic is conceptual," and it would be praised if I matched it to an audience that has trouble understanding the idea.

The social commentary in that article was unwarranted, and just plain wrong.


As for the mind of some mechanic being more important than the world 400 years ago, what the hell? DaVinci could outsmart just about anyone around these days. How? He was a remarkable example of moving ahead because of passion, not responbility or some other such stupidity.


Quote:


These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars. Neither were they searched for with holy candles or mystical powers. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience, and for them all, man is indebted to man. -- Robert Ingersoll




And to think, almost all of this work was done by formally religious people.

Please provide information showing that reason and superstition are mutually exclusive. Without superstitution, you would not have reason. Like the duality of zen, these two poles need each other and should not exist together, but must.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4287681 - 06/12/05 04:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

edit-spelling typos

LOL! You too, eh?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineilithmar
Stranger
Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4288952 - 06/12/05 09:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I've attempted to read the article with a relatively straight eye.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with good old 3rd-circuit logic and reason of science. It has done as many wonderful things for us as it has terrible things. But while they may be useful for drawing a link between A and B, they are merely symbolic representations of reality. To explain means to lay out on a plain, and we're not living in flatland (at least im not). Reality is this, its this transcendent place beyond explanation (im saying everything is magic and unknown on a certain level).

The problem i have with this article (and a lot of science-believers in general) is that its written in a very simple minded, egocentric way. He obviously has done very very very little research into 'magical thinking' if he thinks its all new-age cosmic foo-fooers (i can understand his aggrivation with them... but i can see the exact same kind of thing in much of science and people like him... too many assumptions and beliefs. How can you KNOW anything at all? There is NO reason why the universe should not end in the next 4 seconds.). I suppose thats not really his fault though, as he probably just hasnt ever met the right people.

Don't know much about Chomsky etc, but he seems to have clearly missed the point with that whole thing.

I'm not surprised so many people loved his article, a really nice massage to their egos and their reality tunnels no doubt (the simple recipe of throw rocks and the 'other' crowd, and then claim how much better you are yourself). Well at least he made some people feel better about themselves... He's just silly to be so arrogant and pretentious as to completely write off magic at the same time. Hehehehe.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Magic [Re: ilithmar]
    #4289133 - 06/12/05 09:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:shrug:

Have you read any Dawkin's articles? He's super-famous as a science writer, but it's basically the same thing, just even more egocentric and arrogant.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4290448 - 06/13/05 09:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Dude, I posted some simple opinions in my first reply as I felt ther hype it was presented with didn't measure up. I am entitled to do that am I not, unless you want to start controlling my freedom of speech too now.




Nice ad homienm. :thumbup: I never mentioned or implied through my expressions that you were not entitled to form and present your own expressions, or that I have interest in preventing you from exercising your "freedom of speech".

Regardless of how "simple" your opinions were (the fact that they were simple doesn't make them innocent :wink:), I found reason to raise a response to them. In other words, I directly addressed them in the hopes of creating a discussion, from which both could potentially gain. In fact, I've done nothing but directly address your points, but it seems to be all in vain, as you do not seem interested in entering into the symbiosis required for discussion.

Quote:


A few seemed to not have saw some of what tren, morrow and I saw so I thought if I started putting it in a humorous and ridiculous light, the could better see it. Sometimes, small things need to be exagerated to be seen, like blowing up a picture or using a microscope.




Keeping your analogy in mind, it is necessary for the exaggeration formed from the inital object of picture to actually bear some useful resemblance to the object or picture. In my personal opinion, I have seen nothing of that sort here. :wink:

Quote:


The whole of the article was an average writing from an average man. It had some thoughtful views and some immaturish views. Some people couldn't see the immaturish parts about him being afraid of magicians so I pointed it out in an immaturish way to see the humor in it.




I've read the article, and I cannot exactly pinpoint this section you speak of, where the author refers to being afraid of magicians. Perhaps you could take an approach more in-line with effective discussion of ideas and illustrate this for me so that you could actually demonstrate your point? Acting in an immature manner in order to create some humor is definitely not out of bounds, the fact that you have used such a literary device in this way should make you familiar with the possibillity that other authors often use the same literary device for the same exact reasons? :grin:

Quote:


Is the solution to kill what we fear and ask questions later or make an attempt to understand it? He propses killing magicians versus understanding why beleifs in the unseen have been a natural part of human existance.




I'm sure that this man seriously fears and proposes to kill those who demonstrate such illogical and ridiculous beliefs and thought processes.  :rolleyes: I think your literal intrepretation of this, a result of a knee-jerk reaction, does not reflect the truth of the article and what he is saying.

Quote:


It has a purpose that goes hand in hand with beleifs in the seen. Many things around you today came into your view and hands because someone, imagined, dreamed of, beleived in them or wished for them first.




I will not deny this; however, a flawed system is still a flawed system, regardless of its output, and a system that does not contain as many flaws will always be more capable of the previous, more flawed system in producing more advanced and amazing output. :thumbup:

Quote:


What cannot you not comprehend about that? I think everyone up to this point got it except for you. Thats all I am highlighting here.




Nice ad hominem. :thumbup: It is disappointing that trendal's thread on poor debating technique is no longer stickied, because I distinctly remember an example in that thread that bore striking resemblance to this quoted comment of yours. :lol: Eh, trendal? :wink:

Quote:


If you have a personal problem with my style of doing that sometimes, then, its your problem to work out isn't it?




I do not create a problem as a result of any aspect of reality and its being unless I happen to be in a less aware, less centered in being state of mind, and this has been a good week for me. :laugh:

Quote:


I would rewrite everything I wrote here and be at total ease with it. Keep criticising me and my style, you won't change who I am.




I have no motivation to change someone who I only indirectly know, as attempting to do so would be fruitless. People tend to be stuck in their own misprogrammings and emotional filters, and there is nothing I can do about that except continue to be who I am and do what I do. If you are considering rewriting everything you wrote here, try to do so in a manner that is more conducive to proper discussion. :wink:

Quote:


At least I kept on topic for the most part. All of your replies here are your personal opinions of me. I didn't see this post entitled "Vent your frutstrations with Jiggy Here". You keep trying to make this post about me, you want to talk about, me.




I merely saw a discrepency in two opinions that you offered for consideration and I called you on it. Anything concerning you that I have brought up has only been done in the context of the discussion of these ideas. Sometimes it is hard to seperate the person from their ideas, and sometimes the person themself needs to be addressed to form an understanding as to how they came to form the ideas that they did. My motivations and intentions in this thread, and in this forum in general, are my own and differ from others.

Quote:


You must be really in love or in hate with me to be paying me so much personal attention in a post about a politcal essayists article and where I saw some flaws mixxed in with the good stuff.




Wrong and wrong. :smirk:

Quote:


Whats that saying in Hollywood, "Any press is good press". You are making a celebrity out of my here by turning topics into being all about Jiggy. Pretty soon, I might reach swami celebrity status and people will start posts on me like they do him.




If it happens, it happens, but it is not an intention of mine, and, personally, I don't see it happening anyways. What would provoke you to say this, anyways? :confused:

Quote:


Quit giving your power away to me and then the things I say won't bother you so much. You have 3 long replies here dedicated to me and not the post article or author of it. Thats pretty flattering and amusing.




Baseless assumptions. It has never been stated or implied that you have "bothered" me, and I see no exchange of power from myself to you. :shocked:

Quote:


If you want to talk about me all day be my guest. The energy you are sending my way will help me get my errands done more easily. Thank you for all the attention, you're too kind. :kiss:




I have no intention of talking about you all day. I have never been talking about you directly, merely the aspects of yourself that have crossed over into the discussion on hand. It is suprising that you would make such an assumption and then continue to express it, perhaps to distort my actual presentation in an effort to get myself reprimanded for being off-topic. Or, perhaps, you do so to actually drag this discussion away from areas that you either feel uncomfortable discussing or feel threatened by, derailing the thread and getting it closed? I cannot say what your true intentions are, but I definitely see these as being probable. :nonono:

Quote:


I have nothing more new to say on the article or author without becoming redundant and boring myself. I think the readers here wanted to discuss the article not me. If I am wrong, then someone as into me as you are should just start a post on me.




If you didn't want people discussing you, then you shouldn't continue to produce such statements as these, to make it appear as if you are actually being discussed. I see similarities between this and that of the behavior of a teenage drama-queen, no offense. You seem to have taken a legitimate discussion and centered it around yourself.

My original statement that has produced such a reaction within you was a simple "Rather, you made the article boring and redundant for yourself. You display here the same mentality that this article seems to be lashing out agansit". I made the comment because I am a long time advocate of advancing into higher consciousness. You declared the article boring. You therefore misrepresented the existential state of the article, as the experience of boredom is entirely produced by yourself.

I, therefore, addressed this, to both make an important distinction that benefits one's advancement into higher consciousness, and to also remove a faulty analysis of the article. If you incorrectly perceived reality as it can directly be perceived in this manner, it is fair game to suggest that your other views expressed on the subject are also possibly flawed in a similar manner. Investigating into whether or not this is true directly benefits the debate of this subject itself. It remains on-topic and remains very pertinent to the discussion. :headbang:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledorkus
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Magic *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4290607 - 06/13/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Magic [Re: dorkus]
    #4291134 - 06/13/05 12:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The article was not about imagination, but about the apparent need to believe in falsehoods because they are either more "fun" or the believer is too lazy to look deeper into what is actually going on.

A modern example of this type of superstition is that AIDS is a punishment from God for sinning. This viewpoint has done NOTHING to advance knowledge and help in the cure or prevention of this deadly disease because the belief system is a dead end that teaches us nothing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Swami]
    #4291523 - 06/13/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Tis true, they are doing nothing to advance scientific research to find a cure. That's an obvious no brainer.

I can ask my 8 year old who of the two is progressing in the area of health care;

1) Scientist doing research to find the cause, prevention and cure for HIV and AIDS.

2) People who dwell in guilt believing they are being punished by their god.

She would choose answer number 1 in a snap.

Why did this simple observation pointed out in the article get such hype in its presentation?

We have members in this forum who wright really brilliant observations of the world that are not so obvious at face value, including you swami.

The funny thing is that it was hyped up for "logical thinkers" to be impressed with. Are logical thinkers that easily impressed? Give yourselves more credit then that.

Smart ass voice playing dumb, "You mean, science is advancing our ability to wipe out aids faster then then the religious guilt ridden? CALL the PRESS! This is NEW news! :rotfl: If it was new news to any of you then well.....you should thank Skorp for posting it.

Beyond that, the question is, how are these "guilt ridden god punishing believers" halting others who are using scientific research to find a cure?

Science has been plowing ahead regardless of those who want to feel punished by their god and accept their fate.

Granted, they are not actively helping science, but they aren't halting those who are doing medical research. They are just in a world of their own not progressing.

Some think the use of illegal drugs causes harm, yet many who use them say that they should have a right to use them in their own homes if they aren't harming anyone else. Some say their use has caused good and benefit in their lives and want to be understand and share that good that can come from them.

Can't the same be said for those believing they are being punished by their god if they aren't harming anyone else?

The government uses scientific research to say that the drugs people like to use are harmful and halting the progress of your health and well being.

They have been made illegal. The government used science to take your freedoms aways, but you take liberties anyway. Do you all want the government to use science to take more freedoms away from others? Even if they did, they can' take away our private thoughts.

Most of you think the legalization of mushies and pot is an infringement on your rights to believe that the drugs you use are not causing you any harm that is not of your choosing that you can't handle and believe good comes from it for you. It's their life, it should be their right to choose. Maybe you do believe they are holding you back, but you just don't care.

The bottom line is, all who consume illegal drugs here are not halting the health progress of those who choose not to use them, are they? Of course not.
Do some of you feel like the world stalks you as if you are bad evil people believing in the power of your magic mushies? Now you can relate if you think you should do the same to others who have different beliefs from you.

I was channel surfing and caught a picture of hurricane paths all intersecting Orlando and I stopped on it because I live in Florida. Turns out it was an Evangelist show and they were preaching about how the paths all crossed over Disney Land to punish them for hosting the Gay Parade. Whatever! It's funny to me.

They are not stopping me from studying weather patterns and learning how hurricanes are formed and moved by climatic temperatures, pressure systems, global weather systems and physics.

We have choices. I can imagine these Evangelist are halting my progress of understanding meteorology and live in fear of them or I can choose to be amused by them and go my own way.

Life is too long to create imagined threats and enemies to fight against let alone it being to long to live in fear. Living in joy with friends and allowing for individual freedom of beliefs and pursuits is a way where everyone can fulfill themselves.

Imagination can be used for creating good things too like parks, picnic baskets, cheese and wine to share with another on a sunny day.

Now, I invite you all to pull up a blanket, relax and share a glass of Vino and hunk of cheese with me as we soak up the sun while it's here to warm us. I imagined that, and it was nice thought....very peaceful.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4291663 - 06/13/05 02:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Beyond that, the question is, how are these "guilt ridden god punishing believers" halting others who are using scientific research to find a cure?

-Galileo's discoveries suppressed by mystics

-Stem-cell research opposed by mystics

-Biology students held back by creation proponents

-Untold books burned by mystics throughout history

-The Taliban destroying archaeologically priceless statues of the Buddha (some predating Islam) in Afghanistan

Want more? I could go on all day... :sad:

Now, I invite you all to pull up a blanket, relax and share a glass of Vino and hunk of cheese with me as we soak up the sun while it's here to warm us. I imagined that, and it was nice thought....very peaceful.

Good idea!
[stuffs face]  :popcorn:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/13/05 02:54 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4291729 - 06/13/05 02:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Want more? I could go on all day... 

Cool! Please post a new one every five minutes. :stoned:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4291759 - 06/13/05 03:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The bottom line is, all who consume illegal drugs here are not halting the health progress of those who choose not to use them, are they? Of course not.

No, but the inverse is certainly true.

The first recorded drug prohibition took place in central America where the Jesuits thought that the mushroom-takers were communicating with the devil and to "protect" them, outlawed fungal consumption and killed those who continued. Today, they (and cannabis-takers) are imprisoned by the hundreds of thousands due to the imposition of erroneous beliefs.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/13/05 04:03 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4292101 - 06/13/05 04:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hahaha, did you mean mystics or the Catholic Church? cept for the last one. Yes, suppressed and opposed, in some cases, typed info was burned, even disco records couldn't escape it. The world is bizarre place, I can't argue that, but despite its ills, science does move forward, if not here, over there.

Isn't the real problem that the separation of church and state can't seem to manifest itself? I would put my attention there if any of you are really passionate about this. When law makers are the ones with religious beliefs and have the power to impose their beliefs unto others through the law, then we have a problem Houston.

Is the kooky lady down the street who talks to elves in the trees really the problem or is it the issue of separation of church and state?

Thanks for joining the picnic Dip. I'll open my mouth and lets see how many pieces of popcorn out of ten you can aim in. If you get less then 5 you have to go skinny dipping in the lake.

After you dry off, post more because the shroomery has a lot of Republican voters here and it might be good for them to be reminded of what happens when church and state arn't separated. The Christians have the republican party by the balls. I don't care if Christians play with their own balls and spend their lives in guilt calling each other damned sinners, but I would like them out of government.

I will jump on the band wagon for the true separation of church and state.



I vote independent BTW.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4292282 - 06/13/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

did you mean mystics or the Catholic Church

Catholics are a subset of mystics.

Isn't the real problem that the separation of church and state can't seem to manifest itself?

You're not kidding!

The very first act of the Bush administration was to have the inauguration dedicated to "Jesus Christ, our Savior", thereby excluding millions of American Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Unitarians, Agnostics, and assorted other religions along the way, not to mention Atheists.

Is the kooky lady down the street who talks to elves in the trees really the problem

She is when she wills her estate to the local church which in turn supports political lobbies against teaching evolution, conducting stem-cell research and providing health care to women seeking abortions.

This (mystical) mentality is detrimental to progress, if only indirectly, and harms us all.

If you get less then 5 you have to go skinny dipping in the lake.

Only if you go with me! :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4292309 - 06/13/05 04:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Only if you go with me!

Diploid + GettingJiggy = Jigloid or GettingDippy or...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Swami]
    #4293890 - 06/14/05 12:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Funny names! :lol: Oh hell, bring your glasses over for a refill and have some fresh baked brie.

Ya know Jigloid, that kooky lady down the street who talks to the elves in the trees might be a Naturalist with plans to donate her estate to the local Arboretum.

To think human beings broaching a population of 8 billion can all have their beliefs systems oppressed and suppressed or controlled under the same priority and view is wishful thinking.

Slaves in Louisiana were being forced to adopt Christianity. They didn't want to give up their pre slavery religious beliefs. So they used christian symbols and prayers to represent their own during the masses they were forced to go to. Pretty funny how they got around it. Trying to enforce the change, oppressing or suppressing of others beliefs will just force them back into secret societies. That's not the answer.

Though our country is suppose to have a separation of state and church, the state makes laws based on religious values because they allow for lobbying (legal bribing) The law makers making money off the bribes keep lobbying legal, how convenient.

When Ross Perot was running for the Independent party, he wanted to outlaw lobbying. I voted for him. Didn't expect him to win but I wanted to make my voice known beyond a message board.

I had just remembered that maybe 6 months back in a post I typed that I wished all of the Bibles on the planet would be burned. Geez!
Where does end? Where it begins, with me I suppose.

Just as scientific pursuits should be free to advance, peoples soul and spiritual growth should have the same right too. It's when the two try to impose their wills and agendas unto each other with force through law makers that things get fucked up.

Not only do I not want to take away any ones freedom to beleive and think, science included, think about it, I am realistic enough to know I couldn't if I wanted to, none of us could.

We may not advance far in the end if understanding the workings of the material world is our only priority and pursuit. It's like how someone once said, "Little Jimmy can do his multiplication tables by age 4 but hasn't learned not to bite his sister." Which do any of us think should come first?

Well, I don't want the weight of the world on my shoulders, anyone who wants it can have it. Here....catch!

The sun is still shining, the lake is sparkling and the breeze is calm. Who wants to throw a Frisbee around?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/14/05 12:29 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4294089 - 06/14/05 01:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ya know Jigloid, that kooky lady down the street who talks to the elves in the trees might be a Naturalist with plans to donate her estate to the local Arboretum.

Point taken.

Just as scientific pursuits should be free to advance, peoples soul and spiritual growth should have the same right too.

I'm completely in favor of people following their heart re spirituality, but when I see such things as the (former) pope saying mass to a group of several hundred thousand people in Brazil and asking them to have more children because the church in recent years has seen a decline in membership, I'm appalled.

Absolutely appalled(!) that with 6 billion plus people on Earth and a rate of population growth unprecedented in human history that he would say such a thing to his followers. Followers who, by the way, consider him a direct extension of God and whose word is infallible.

And in BRAZIL(!) of all places, where an estimated 10 million orphan children roam the streets homeless. Where these children are routinely rounded up by police like cattle and executed when their populations become such that they interfere with tourism. Where the population is already unsustainable and the majority live in sub-squalor conditions.

You know what drives him so make such abominable requests of his followers? The religious (read mysticism) imperative to "go forth and procreate".

Who wants to throw a Frisbee around?

I'm full of cheese and wine, but I'll give it a try!  :hypno:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Magic [Re: Diploid]
    #4294512 - 06/14/05 08:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Just as scientific pursuits should be free to advance, peoples soul and spiritual growth should have the same right too.

I'm completely in favor of people following their heart re spirituality, but when I see such things as the (former) pope saying mass to a group of several hundred thousand people in Brazil and asking them to have more children because the church in recent years has seen a decline in membership, I'm appalled.

Absolutely appalled(!) that with 6 billion plus people on Earth and a rate of population growth unprecedented in human history that he would say such a thing to his followers. Followers who, by the way, consider him a direct extension of God and whose word is infallible.

And in BRAZIL(!) of all places, where an estimated 10 million orphan children roam the streets homeless. Where these children are routinely rounded up by police like cattle and executed when their populations become such that they interfere with tourism. Where the population is already unsustainable and the majority live in sub-squalor conditions.

You know what drives him so make such abominable requests of his followers? The religious (read mysticism) imperative to "go forth and procreate".

___________________________________________________________________

That's the point for me. You need to be carefull what you accept as "Spirituality". I feel personally that this religious crap is something sinister rather than Spiritual.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Magic [Re: Icelander]
    #4294676 - 06/14/05 10:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And how is all of that halting scientific progress?

The topics you mentioned are getting into the area of financial greed and power.

There are many versions of the Bible and some are written as "Be Fruitful and Multiply." That can be interpreted to mean "bring forth creative fruits." That could be in the form of anything one produces creatively.

It's my understanding that some Church heads changed it to "procreate" to build power by numbers of members.

Regardless, overpopulation is a myth. We have so much undeveloped land on this planet it's amazing. Because the globe hasn't been good at spreading people out and sharing resources doesn't mean the planet doesn't have enough of either.

The area of medical science is also keeping more people alive longer where natural selection would be maintaining its own controls. Science is interfering with over population as well. This post is about how magical thinking is halting scientific progress.

Killing children to raise revenues has what to do with magical thinking halting scientific progress?

Thats a disregard for human life generated by greed which values money over it.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Where are my fellow magicians?
( 1 2 all )
Worldbridger 3,538 23 07/27/05 02:20 PM
by Swami
* If magic was real, scientists would be magicians TheCow 1,008 8 04/23/08 04:51 PM
by fireworks_god
* Magic: gullibility vs. open mind vs. intellect
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,994 37 12/18/05 12:34 AM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Its A Kind Of Magic: Reprise Jackenobi 680 2 05/27/07 11:44 PM
by Jackenobi
* techno magic Traveller 1,228 11 11/21/01 10:30 AM
by skaMariaPastora
* One reason everybody should eat magic mushrooms
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Mixomatosis 12,662 134 05/06/13 06:58 PM
by LysergicX7
* David Blaine, magic and illusion (for SlapHappy)
( 1 2 all )
Swami 1,987 37 04/28/05 02:13 PM
by egghead1
* magic
( 1 2 all )
falcon 1,488 33 01/04/04 01:27 PM
by Positronius

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,831 topic views. 1 members, 12 guests and 20 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.063 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.