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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Magic
    #4280125 - 06/10/05 03:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

This is truly one of the most brilliant essays I've ever read, and was recommended by Phred [aka Pinksharkmark].

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000051.html

Many of you will not be disappointed, some of you will be threatened by his sledgehammer of logic and reason and a few of you may burst a blood vessel, as Phred mentioned. :grin:


But it's still a very well written and highly enjoyable read. :thumbup:



"For those frequent readers who believe in freedom, I am about to lay on y'all a gem beyond price. You will thank me for the rest of your lives for the following information. This man -- Bill Whittle -- has finally published his first book. I strongly suggest you buy a copy. Until you do, you can read a hell of a lot of what is in that book for free at his website, http://www.ejectejecjteject.com
I discovered his site over a year ago and have been reading each essay as he added it. One of my greatest pleasures was checking his site and finding he'd added a new essay. The titles of these essays are:

Honor
Freedom
Empire
War
Courage
Confidence
History
Victory
Magic
Trinity (part one)
Trinity (part two)
Responsibility
Power
Strength (part one)
Strength (part two)
Deterrence (part one)
Deterrence (part two)

I hope to hell he has more on the way. I've been reading political commentary for over three decades now, and there are many essayists worthy of recommendation (Mark Steyn, Michael Barone, Charles Krauthammer, PJ O'Rourke, Victor Davis Hanson, Norman Podhoretz and more), but Bill Whittle tops the list.

I suggest those frequenters of the PA&L forum who are of the anti-Capitalist, anti-American, pro-Michael Moore/Noam Chomsky/Howard Zinn Leftist tribe not read these essays. It'll only make you burst a blood vessel.

But for those who don't believe all good things come from government intervention, Whittle is required reading. One of personal favorites is "Magic", but they're all so good it's tough to single any of them out. I'd give my left nut to be able to write as well as Whittle does.

Enjoy.



Phred"





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280171 - 06/10/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

heh read a bunch of it, ill finish it later.


Nothing special, sadly =( . ( maybe if i read the rest of it itll get more interesting? )


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280195 - 06/10/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

it would make a good tv show.
edutainment


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280196 - 06/10/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Big fleas have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite ?em
And little fleas have lesser fleas
And so ad infinitum

(and these small fleas
of course, in turn
have larger fleas to go on
and larger still, and larger still,
and larger still, and so on)

Now?

--- I love that part :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280255 - 06/10/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I don't get what was so earth shattering for fred. S&Pers talk from that perspective all of the time. made this article boring and redundant.

I aprreciated one of his angles and that was how people tend not to marvel at the modern wonders before us like digital cameras, lazer eye surgery, space flight etc.

I think he over generalized that people do not do this because I do. I know how jumbo jets defy gravity but that doesn't stop me from watching one take off and from marveling at this massive heavy hunk of metal floating above the ground. I look at phots astronauts have taken of the planet and marvel at them and the view, even though it can be explained how the photo of our planet was accomplished.

I would like to ask the author why he wants me to marvel at my cell phone, which I do, but not at rainbows or shooting stars.

He says that people shouldn't want to beleive in the unexplainable and that it hinders us yet, our awe and fascination with the unexplainable is what drives science to get it explained. The two go together.

I have know idea what pinky found so fascinating or brilliant from that article. His logic, reasoning and generalizations were not well thought out.

Thats no reflection on you Skorp. What were you so impressed with in it?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280273 - 06/10/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Great read.

Miami, 1975. It?s Friday night and I?m on the roof of the Southern Cross Observatory at the Museum of Science and Space Transit Planetarium.

By a magical coincidence, I was on the Board of Directors of the Southern Cross Astronomical Society in Miami years ago.  :mushroom2:

It's a small world...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (06/10/05 04:26 PM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4280326 - 06/10/05 04:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

ok, i finished it.

He did a great job at driving home a simple point, but I feel he fell prey to his own criticism of laziness. He took great effort to bring examples up to the point that the conclusion seems obvious, but skimped on making any final conclusion. How disappointing =(

I'd like to argue how the Enlightenment was essentially a failure and that its failure is what spawned Romanticism ( which is essentially what he is trying to criticize ), but I don't think he'd be very keen to the point. Personally, what amuses me is what crap the Enlightment people loved for art ( Rococo - pretty, delightful but pointless and full of crap .. you'd think they'd like the opposite? ). Those same people prissed around in pretty pink robes thinking artifice in conversation was the most important thing while they wrote their intelluctual pieces. Clowns.


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Re: Magic [Re: vampirism]
    #4280541 - 06/10/05 05:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Skorp, are you being sarcastic? I actually think that's a pretty dangerous read...clouding the mind and all. I'm all for reason, as is the author. I'm all for testing hypotheses and ameliorating them. I'm no hedonist. Self-imposed laws are helpful to nurture maturity, focus, and discipline.

But what is this guy talking about, honestly? Yes, it is important to work from a foundation and build upon it. Speaking from a mystical perspective, it's his foundation I take issue with. He seems to think his foundation is where he is presently at. It's what's there. There is nothing beyond the physical, and upon the physical he builds.

My foundation is Nothing. Note the capital N. This is at the heart of the issue, exemplifying the differences between the mystical and scientific perspective. But I don't even want to say it that way, because mysticism and science are hardly mutually exclusive.

The point is, one's foundation must be searched for. It is not a 'given'. One's foundation is not how things are at the present, as one understands them. There is something more, something beyond materialism. We are not yet perfect, we do not yet know our foundation. There *is* deeper to go, and it's towards this depth, and not convention, that we should be headed.

Once this depth is explored, and the foundation of Nothingness realized, then convention can be created better than ever. Then convention can be magically created. To create the 1 that follows 0, we must first embrace the 0 and become the 0. This is the most basic and primary foundation.

From Nothing is anything possible because there are no restraints. So the goal is to realize a foundation as subtle as possible. Just follow anything--anything at all--all its way and you arrive at Nothing. Everything extends into infinite and Nothing.

People like the author are afraid of death and afraid to go backwards. It's vital to go backwards, dismantle current misconceptions, and realize a proper foundation, before going forwards and building on it. Either first there can be clumsy construction, or first there can be deconstruction followed by refined construction.

Strict science/logic is clumsy. It's like a young child with one of those toys where you insert shapes into their appropriate holes. You have to put the triangle shape into the triangle hole, and not the square hole, and so on. But science posits hypotheses that must be proven or disproven, so each piece is tried into every hole, and eventually the right combination is found. It would be easier to mentally visualize what goes where and get it right the first time. I only 'guess 'n check' when I have to.

A subtle foundation means you can't fall back on it for safety or comfort, so you must be a self-realized individual. A subtle foundation is one with the present moment, not separate from it in distracting metaphysical doctrine. A subtle foundation *is* every action I do, that constantly reaffirms itself. A proper foundation includes what is built upon it. The 0 of Nothingness is only threatening if considered in isolation from the 1 it begats.

So everything is one and everything is essentially Nothing. A concrete foundation refuses to retract into this Nothingness, and indeed it is a foundation--a foundation for the ego. A foundation against the entropy that is scary only to those who cannot find order in chaos, who cannot embrace Nothing, and who cannot accept that magic just might exist.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4280605 - 06/10/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Speaking from a mystical perspective, it's his foundation I take issue with. He seems to think his foundation is where he is presently at. It's what's there. There is nothing beyond the physical, and upon the physical he builds.

I don't see where he says anything about this. Maybe I missed a sentence or two, could you please point this out, and then we'll make progress? :smile:

[And no, I wasn't being sarcastic at all, and I already understand the overall premise of Nothingness that you took the time to describe.]




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/10/05 07:16 PM)


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4280833 - 06/10/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, I don't know about that response. Your basis is Nothingness but why? How do you know there is something beyond the physical? How do you have the ability to mentally gauge something and "get it right the first time" and only "guess and check" when you have to. Do you honestly think you could do better than all the dedicated scientists experimenting and observing their asses off because you have a foundation of "Nothingness", just because you believe in Nothingness? Your Nothingness is based on just that, Nothingness.

I'd have to say this article is very good.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4280960 - 06/10/05 07:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I mean to say that we should not suppose our current foundations are absolutes. They are temporary platforms from which we may find a solid foundation. Materialism fails to explain so much that it isn't solid enough to serve as a foundation, only a platform.

If people look for something beyond the physical from a context of materialism that is regarded as an absolute foundation, then Nothingness will *never* be found. There can always be a logical answer to any question, that simply has yet to be discovered. A hypothesis can always be created to fill a missing link. But most importantly, if mystery is not even seen and considered, then it will never be explored.

So if we don't have a solid foundation, that's a risky proposition unsettling to many. This first step is denied by many. Yet only after embracing this delicate uncertainty can a more solid foundation be found. It is found within the uncertainty, within the mystery of ineffability, as opposed to within that which is already explained and understood.

The relative state of affairs that scares so many, is itself the very foundational framework saught and realized by others. In the same vein as saying that "nothing is absolute" is itself an absolute, that "nothing is anything but relative" is not relative.

The author says: As usual, [post-modernists] have gotten it exactly wrong. It is true that no one can re-learn every lesson they have learned throughout their entire lives every day. To build on knowledge, to grow smarter, to become educated, is to add layers based on the existing foundations.

It is not a question of re-learning every lesson, but of rethinking the founding framework upon which every lesson was learnt. Then one's world model may topple all at once, in a calculated fashion. It's necessary to remove layers before adding. When the pile gets too thick, if the truth is reached, can all former layers in contradiction with the truth be overcome? Bah, a nonsensical question, since the truth will never be found if vision is distorted by too many layers of perception.

The author says of post-modernists: Post-modernists will look at this and come to the conclusion that because we all have these internal clich?s, all truth is relative, there is no objective reality, and a nineteen-year-old English Lit student knows the true meaning of Hamlet better than Shakespeare does.

All truth *is* relative, and therein lies the key to transcend relativity, a kind of absolute that is the relative backbone of the universe. For relativity think chaos, and then think fractal order that is only apparent upon consideration of the bigger picture. Built on a false foundation, subsequently distorted layers hide this bigger picture and the order in chaos.

Objective reality exists in the sense that everything is (relatively) true. Everything is relative in relation to everything else, but exists in-and-of-itself. Superficially (physically) these selves are individual, but essentially they are the common Nothingness connecting all.

Everything is relatively true. My reflection is not me, but nor is it non-existent. Everything relative exists to the extent that who or whatever is considering it from a given perspective (which accounts for the relative slant/bias in question) also exists. A falsehood is true to those who believe in it. So everything is contingent on everything else, forming a huge web or matrix or interconnectedness.

The author says there is no objective reality, and that's true, because nothing can be considered in total isolation. There's nothing that exists absolutely, separate from everything else; everything exists contingently.

So what exists absolutely, separate from everything else? Nothing!


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Magic [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4281028 - 06/10/05 08:10 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The author says: As usual, [post-modernists] have gotten it exactly wrong. It is true that no one can re-learn every lesson they have learned throughout their entire lives every day. To build on knowledge, to grow smarter, to become educated, is to add layers based on the existing foundations.

It is not a question of re-learning every lesson, but of rethinking the founding framework upon which every lesson was learnt. Then one's world model may topple all at once, in a calculated fashion. It's necessary to remove layers before adding. When the pile gets too thick, if the truth is reached, can all former layers in contradiction with the truth be overcome? Bah, a nonsensical question, since the truth will never be found if vision is distorted by too many layers of perception.



Yes, that's fine and all, but, I don't see how this shows that he holds a notion of nothing being beyond the physical. Furthermore, what if he meant ?existing foundations? in a pluralistic sense? Who?s to say which of many assumptions is more accurate?


Reading the rest of your post, it sounds to me like you?ve already answered your own questions/misunderstandings about the article and the author. You do have to understand that he is a political essayist writing from the ground of relativity, instead of ?The? ground as most spiritual authors do for their special purposes and different audiences.

Edit:
Oh... if you meant that "cliches" are synonymous with falsehood, or if that is how you interpreted the author... then I misinterpreted you. Damn the communication barriers!
[Is this so?]



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (06/10/05 08:26 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Magic [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4281093 - 06/10/05 08:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Not a bad essay, of course, but something I have never really liked about Whittle's writtings are how he uses the tactics he preeches against. Such as making assertions without evidence. He does that just as much as the next guy, I'm afriad  :rolleyes:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4281288 - 06/10/05 09:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I have know idea what pinky found so fascinating or brilliant from that article.




Re-read what I said. I have read all of his essays more than once. "Magic" is one of my personal favorites, but that is not to say that it (or any other single one of his essays) is necessarily "fascinating" to me. There's nothing in that particular essay I didn't already know. But I like the way he writes. Simple, straightforward, honest. Everything he aserts is easily verifiable. But he doesn't bore you to tears and his essays are accessible to even the dimmest denizen of the PA&L forum.

Quote:

His logic, reasoning and generalizations were not well thought out.




You're not serious.

As it happens, "Magic" especially appeals to me because of Whittle's delightful skewering of that mendacious old fraud Noam Chomsky. Whittle describes in a lot fewer words than I have (in my previous posts on Chomsky in the PA&L forum) old Noam's sleight of hand. He also pins the propagandist Michael Moore to the mat, and his example of deceiving through omission (see the bit on Robert Wayne Jernigan) is such a masterful sendup of the way the Libbie mainstream media operates that I must tip my hat to the man.

Since I wrote the post Skorpio quoted from, Whittle has written a new one -- Sanctuary. It is a must read. Possibly his best so far, but as I said earlier they are all so good it really is difficult to rank any of them above the rest. Even if it isn't Whittle's personal best, it's probably the best discourse on the topic of sanctuary that I've yet read from anyone, even including Victor Davis Hanson, and it is no mean feat to outdo VDH. Whittle is that good.

Check out "Sanctuary, Part One" at http://www.ejectejecteject.com/

I anxiously await Part Two.



Phred


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Magic [Re: Phred]
    #4281401 - 06/10/05 10:27 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I can understand that. i think in the original post, a lot of hype was built up for it and nothing in it was a new perspective that hasn't been beaten to death in here in S&P in the last year I have been reading here.

Yes, he has a nice gliding writing style that is easy going.

The part where I said his reasoning is mixed up is when he spoke of our fascination with the unexplainable as being a dangerous thing. Without it, science wouldn't have a reason to explain anything.

He wanted one without the other and it can't be that way. They go together.

He still seems fascinated with his visit by the leprechaun. He doesn't practice what he preaches, that's all. Tren caught the same dance.

Thanks for sharing your appreciation of his work. Other perspectives always help to round us out.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Magic [Re: Phred]
    #4281475 - 06/10/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Everything he aserts is easily verifiable.



I wouldn't say so. He left little clues everywhere without actually making a truly solid argument. In all of his examples he carries out one simple example- the black sand if you will- and presents it as the beach.



My own position is essentially trendal + pheonix.

What bothers me about his approach is that essentially, for him, everything is impossible until it is shown otherwise. The people he criticizes are the ones who open themselves to all possibilities- to nothing being impossible. Which do you think contributes more to the creation of the machines he praises? It's foolish to say that science is an inventor. Science collects data and categorizes it- it is individuals with the will to try something "impossible" that make the "real magic." It is the union of irrational and rational which creates this magic of his.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Magic [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4282241 - 06/11/05 02:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
S&Pers talk from that perspective all of the time. made this article boring and redundant.




Rather, you made the article boring and redundant for yourself. You display here the same mentality that this article seems to be lashing out agansit. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Magic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4282312 - 06/11/05 03:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

How can we attempt to jump the the conclusion that the material world is not our base absolute platform when we have so much more to discover about it? Baby steps. Science is about our world and for a very long time we will and should be bound by a materialist ideal because that's our limitation. We can't and won't be able to prove anything about a non-material world for some time.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4282489 - 06/11/05 04:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A pluralistic sense, I didn't catch that. I rather like Chomsky, and I didn't realize the author was a political essayist. Heh I guess I just don't jive with such scepticism. Notin gainst you. :smile:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Magic [Re: freddurgan]
    #4282564 - 06/11/05 06:21 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

freddurgan said:
How can we attempt to jump the the conclusion that the material world is not our base absolute platform when we have so much more to discover about it?




In the same manner that one can jump to the conclusion that the movie they are watching on one's television is not actually a memory of one's own experience, and in similar manners. :nut:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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