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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada
    #4279844 - 06/10/05 02:08 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

About 6,000 Soldiers Deserted From Iraq War; 150 Fled To Canada


Thirty-five years after Vietnam, Canada is still a safe haven for those fleeing service in the U.S. military.

"I did it for the best of my family, for the best of my conscience," said Pfc. Joshua Key, of the U.S. Army.

He served eight months in Iraq's volatile Sunni triangle with the 43rd combat engineer company. He raided homes and flushed out terrorists. As a soldier, he decided the war in Iraq was unjustified.

"It's wrong, it's very immoral. We're there under lies and different pretenses that were fabricated," Key said.

To the Army, he's a wanted criminal.


http://www.wesh.com/news/4534806/detail.html



I couldn't find any website that mentionned what Joshua Key has witnessed as a soldier. But i have a magazine who made an interview of him and i'll give you the essential later.

Peace


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Edited by exclusive58 (06/10/05 05:36 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4280267 - 06/10/05 04:03 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
About 6,000 Soldiers Deserted From Iraq War; 150 Fled To Canada


Thirty-five years after Vietnam, Canada is still a safe haven for those fleeing service in the U.S. military.

"I did it for the best of my family, for the best of my conscience," said Pfc. Joshua Key, of the U.S. Army.

He served eight months in Iraq's volatile Sunni triangle with the 43rd combat engineer company. He raided homes and flushed out terrorists. As a soldier, he decided the war in Iraq was unjustified.

"It's wrong, it's very immoral. We're there under lies and different pretenses that were fabricated," Key said.

To the Army, he's a wanted criminal.


http://www.wesh.com/news/4534806/detail.html



I couldn't find any website that mentionned what Joshua Key has witnessed as a soldier. But i have a magazine who made an interview of him and i'll give you the essential later.

Peace




6,000? That is big number I have never heard before.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4280648 - 06/10/05 05:56 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

That's a big number indeed. Makes you think doesn't it?

And this number doesn't take in count the people that purposefuly mutilate themselves so that they can go home.

Joshua Key says that a number of persons shoot themselves in the foot or in the leg. He even he has a friend that shot himself in the ankle with an M-16. According to him, the idea of mutilating oneself crossed everyone's mind. To the point that authorities published a memo in which it was said that if anyone was caught trying to wound themselves or find a way to go back home, they will be sent back in Iraq for 12 or 18 months.

!!


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4280751 - 06/10/05 06:44 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

ok i'm just going to add a new post now and then concerning the most interesting parts of Joshua Key's testimonies on the war in Iraq. i don't have enough time to write everything up.


Joshua arrived in Koweit on april 10th of 2003, a month after the war started. They had to take halt in the desert until the 27th. In the oven. They only had 2 bottles of water for every day instead of the 6 that were necessary, and only one meal instead of the 3 reglementary meals.

They didn't understand. how can you explain that the most powerful, the best technologically equipped army in the world, lacked food and water for its soldiers? They were dehydrating, they were hungry, and the sand was infiltrating everywhere...


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InvisibleArp
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4280848 - 06/10/05 07:10 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Thats scary. Forcing someone to shit in the desert like that screwing them of their daily meals and fluid.

Maybe those 4 missing bottles are bringing home some of that black gold? :wink:


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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4281062 - 06/10/05 08:22 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Id rather just do the right thing and fight, and not be a coward.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #4282491 - 06/11/05 05:00 AM (12 years, 16 days ago)

But you don't know what its like over there. Try and contemplate the idea that you may end up realizing that the right thing to do is NOT to fight.. Soldiers over there have no idea WHY they're fighting man.


After having stayed in the desert, Joshua's infantry (made up of about 100 soldiers) was told that they had to go to Ramadi on their own because the wooden bridge that lead to the city would break under the tanks' weight. Now Ramadi is a city of about 300,000 people. And this small group of people was ordered to go on patrol over there. They were shitting in their pants!

Joshua was trained to set mines and to defuse them. He wasn't trained to be a man of combat! He nonetheless followed orders and went on patrol at nighttime. One soldier 10 feet ahead and another 10 feet behind, with the machine gun in their hands.

This made people crazy. And Joshua thinks that this was the goal. Provoke them, in order for them to shoot the soldiers so that they could shoot back.

The Iraqis weren't particularly happy to see the Americans. They were scared shtiless. At first, some people got out of their houses and applauded the boys. But then authorities explained to them that this was an old reflex from the time of Hussein's regime, when people were ordered to acclaim the soldiers or else they would be executed.
Very soon though, people started spitting on them, throwing stones. And then came gun shots, then rockets, and then grenade attacks were multiplying. Especially when they arrived in Falludjha (sp?). That's where the nightmare unfolded...


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OfflineJ4S0N
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4282958 - 06/11/05 11:49 AM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Wow, its so sad. I can't say im surprised though, a friend of mine just got back from Afganistan and his view of the war is pretty much the same. It must be hell over there for everyone involved (except the people collecting the money).

The USA military is being used by people who are only serving their own self interests.


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"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #4283509 - 06/11/05 03:17 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

WhiteRabbitt said:
Id rather just do the right thing and fight, and not be a coward.




Well then go join the Army, tough guy.  Nothing's stopping you.    :smile:






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OfflineXUL
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4283517 - 06/11/05 03:18 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

they can give death to those who desert the army. wtf..

I think that is soooo fucking wrong

I also thing giving them prison is wrong. The guy just followed his instinct and left, its what humans do.


--------------------
Do not wait to strike until the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.
-W.B. Yeats


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: XUL]
    #4283619 - 06/11/05 03:52 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

First off, it sucks that soldiers have to die and fight in a war that they don't believe in. It isn't WW2, and unlike the "greatest generation" there isn't an easy right/wrong decision.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that you joined the military full well knowing that you were going to be under the control of the leaders of our country. Not only that, you signed a contract on your toward this.

There is absolutely no way you can then go back on your word for a war you don't deem necessary. That is not your job. Your job is to fight, others decide when to fight. Its the law of the land, its the law of human existence.

The power structure is in place to keep an army ready to fight, and able to continue to fight in light of internal and external struggles. If this structure is broke in anyway, it compromises our military and those that it is sworn to protect. For that, it is entirely unacceptable to desert in the name of moral concious. You relinquished that to serve in the military.

I really can't understand many of the posts in this thread, they just stink of illogical conclusions and I don't know where they actually stand. It is either one, the other, or the next, stupidity, cowardice, or a genuine philosophy on pacifism. Who knows.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: XUL]
    #4283650 - 06/11/05 04:04 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
they can give death to those who desert the army. wtf..

I think that is soooo fucking wrong

I also thing giving them prison is wrong. The guy just followed his instinct and left, its what humans do.





Actually, they can't execute the deserters, but they can send them back to iraq..so its kind of the same thing if you ask me.

And its true that deserters can be sent to jail for up to 5 years.

But i don't think that people should be imprisoned for doing what they believe is illegal.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4283673 - 06/11/05 04:16 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Quote:

XUL said:
they can give death to those who desert the army. wtf..

I think that is soooo fucking wrong

I also thing giving them prison is wrong. The guy just followed his instinct and left, its what humans do.





Actually, they can't execute the deserters, but they can send them back to iraq..so its kind of the same thing if you ask me.

And its true that deserters can be sent to jail for up to 5 years.

But i don't think that people should be imprisoned for doing what they believe is illegal.




I'm just at a loss for words. Then why did they join the military? Did they not realize that might be asked to do something they didn't agree with? Are they stupid? Every war is met with resistence from some moral angle, did they think perfection would be attained and the gods will shine down on earth with black and white, fill in the circle answers to all the worlds problems?

I'd love to hear how you belive military should be structured if you also think soldiers shouldn't have to fight once they sign up to serve.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: looner2]
    #4283699 - 06/11/05 04:28 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Still, it doesn't change the fact that you joined the military full well knowing that you were going to be under the control of the leaders of our country.





In february of 2002, Joshua encountered the army recruiters. They knew how to talk to him, to say the least. They told him about how he was going to get out of Oklahoma and live a fabulous adventure. They said that not only was he going to serve his country, but that his was going to bring exceptional advantages to his family: a good health care, a regular salary, money for college once done with the army, and also, that he would be exceptionally well formed in the construction of bridges which will help him find a well paid job in private industries.

Particulary, the recruiters told him that since he was in charge of a family, he would be assigned in a regiment that will not be deployed in foreign countries. The recruiter pledged his word on this while looking at him straight in the eyes.

Once he got in Missouri's boot camp, he found out that the recruiters' promises and the reality were two totally different things. No, he wasn't there to build bridges, but rather learn how to destroy them, since he was imposed the speciality of mines.

By autumn of 2002, everything they did was in the perspective of confronting troops in iraq. But Joshua still believed that the promise would be kept. He tried to ask the question to an officer, but they made him understand that he had to shut up if he didn't want his family to be penalized. He was trapped.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4283719 - 06/11/05 04:37 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)




In february of 2002, Joshua encountered the army recruiters. They knew how to talk to him, to say the least. They told him about how he was going to get out of Oklahoma and live a fabulous adventure. They said that not only was he going to serve his country, but that his was going to bring exceptional advantages to his family: a good health care, a regular salary, money for college once done with the army, and also, that he would be exceptionally well formed in the construction of bridges which will help him find a well paid job in private industries.

Particulary, the recruiters told him that since he was in charge of a family, he would be assigned in a regiment that will not be deployed in foreign countries. The recruiter pledged his word on this while looking at him straight in the eyes.

Once he got in Missouri's boot camp, he found out that the recruiters' promises and the reality were two totally different things. No, he wasn't there to build bridges, but rather learn how to destroy them, since he was imposed the speciality of mines.

By autumn of 2002, everything they did was in the perspective of confronting troops in iraq. But Joshua still believed that the promise would be kept. He tried to ask the question to an officer, but they made him understand that he had to shut up if he didn't want his family to be penalized. He was trapped.


This post has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. You didn't address my original question, whatsoever.

But if this was your attempt... let me try to summarize...

If, because, as you say, Joshua was lied too by a military recruiter, then that justifies the entire structure of the military to be broken down and legally allow soldiers not to fight?

Sorry doesn't make sense. Try again please!


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OfflineKada
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: looner2]
    #4284917 - 06/12/05 01:15 AM (12 years, 15 days ago)

I was in the marine corps when this started happining. guess what, i had a pre existing back injury that "flaired up after 5 years" and didnt go to iraq. I actually got a medical discharge for it too.
I am not stupid enough to get myself killed so someone else can get rich. I love my kids to much to do that to them.
Say what you want about it people, but know this, i joined the corps right out of high school to serve what i belived to be a fair decent governmet, stupid i know. Get money for college they said, make something of yourself they said, defend america and your family they said. Its all bull. I will not start ww3, or be a part of something like that. The government is evil. No, i didnt say america is, just the idiots running it are. My 15 year old brother could do better.


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~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.



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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: exclusive58]
    #4284966 - 06/12/05 01:30 AM (12 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
But you don't know what its like over there. Try and contemplate the idea that you may end up realizing that the right thing to do is NOT to fight.. Soldiers over there have no idea WHY they're fighting man.





There is no right or wrong when you are a soldier. You do what you are ordered to do. A single person's moral convictions are irrelevant. They are fighting because they are told to. They don't need an idea why.


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You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: Kada]
    #4284967 - 06/12/05 01:30 AM (12 years, 15 days ago)

LordofChaos, nothing personal, but I believe you should be put to death for treason. Not because I don't like you, or think your a bad person, but because if everybody did what you did then we wouldn't have a military to defend our country. Instead only paying kids to go to college and play with big toys on the weekends.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: Learyfan]
    #4284968 - 06/12/05 01:31 AM (12 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Well then go join the Army, tough guy.  Nothing's stopping you.    :smile:





I've thought about it, but my current physical health prevents me. So something is stopping me.


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You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: U.S. Military Deserters Flee To Canada [Re: Kada]
    #4284978 - 06/12/05 01:34 AM (12 years, 15 days ago)

flame


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



Edited by WhiteRabbitt (06/12/05 01:35 AM)


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