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OfflineGatorade
A-With-A-Teeth-A

Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 175
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there...
    #4278008 - 06/10/05 12:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I fell in love with the concept of setting and forgetting and this method has been shown to work amazingly considering the amount of maintenance needed (none!) to carry out through the fruiting process.

So I went over to good ol' Walmart and for $13 I got a huge tub, 2 square foot dish pans and a large bag of poly fill.

Now I am ready to create my single tub fruiting chamber.  I had a few ideas that I thought would work well with this method. Let me explain to you how it deviates from the normal method.

Instead of placing a black bag in a tub, them making holes at the height of the casing layer, I thought I would place two dishpans, about a square foot each, inside.

I made an awesome picture in Paint to help illustrate my concept.

Simple enough... Now if you notice two key elements that separate it from the normal method, first off there are tubs inside of it.  Second, the hole is placed at the bottom, not at the level of the casing.

The reason I presume this will work and perhaps work better is because of 3 reasons: 

First, since the containers are smaller then the tub, the complete perimeter is surrounded by a "drop off area" where the co2 can fall down into the base of the tub.  The normal method has a single hole that all the co2 vents outwards from, this method should allow for a more even "drop off" of co2 instead of concentrating all venting from a single hole that is uneven.

Second, the bottom hole is further away from the casing layer, this may or may not matter at all.  But I think having an open hole further away from the casing layer could reduce the risk of contams, making it even harder from contams to find their way onto the casing layer.

Last, and this may be a bad thing in reality, is that since there is a space between the side of the tub and the dish pans inside, any condensation that is built up along the wall and runs down will fall into the basin on the bottom, and not puddle along the outside of the  casing wall.  So this would create an even moisture level and not a heavier concentration around the outside.  The reason I think this may be the downfall is that this means less water is put back onto the casing and could account for a dry humidity.  Things that I have considered is placing the bottom holes slightly higher then the bottom of the tub, so it can still puddle up and not run out the poly fill holes, with the water retained, it can evaporate and still stay in the tub.

So there is my theory and game plan.  I really don't know if its worth a shot but it kind of sounds like it could work right?  I don't have any experience with a single/double tub method so I may be overlooking something basic but I will be willing to try it out and let you all know if it works.

I will be looking forward to responses from the pioneers of the single/double tub method, feel free too yell at my ass for suggesting something so lame. :smile:


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Offlinepshawny
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Gatorade]
    #4278064 - 06/10/05 12:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Looks like it should work :smile:


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Offlinemushroommark
Earning mybluethumb

Registered: 10/01/04
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: pshawny]
    #4278536 - 06/10/05 04:07 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah you should be in good shape eitherway.

I would guess you wouldn't notice much of a difference with the holes in a different location, but I could be wrong.  Eitherway looks like a good setup. :smile:

Mark


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OfflineZenith
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: mushroommark]
    #4278774 - 06/10/05 05:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have been thinking exactly the same idea.

I was thinking to buy some black plastic to do right size pool or cut another containers bottom off so I can have most of S/D tubs bottom used. I was also thinking that putting H2O2 and H2O in to the bottom but I?m not sure is that needed or even harmfull.
And I would put some hooks to that casing tub so I can lift it up for easier harvesting.


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OfflineWronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Zenith]
    #4278874 - 06/10/05 07:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Gatorade, interesting concept indeed. I personally do not care for the idea of using a tub inside of a tub and like the direct application. I place my holes directly at the substrate/casing layer for immediate CO2 expulsion. I don't know how much different or more efficiently it would work being at the bottom.

I also use black trash bags in my containers under my substrate. This prevents condensation buildup from drowning the casing and makes for easy cleanup when the substrate is spent. I don't see why your idea wouldn't work, as it's pretty much the same thing, except without the direct application of substrate.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that only one hole is used for venting though. As you can clearly see in the picture, 4 holes are use.


I think it needs to be noted that the Single/Double Tub teks are not simply fruiting chambers. They create a perfect environment for the mushrooms that do not require intervention. These chambers are grow chambers that facilitate everything you need post colonization of the initial medium. This chamber is used for spawning, casing, and fruiting.

Once you have a colonized medium you simply put your eggs in this basket and run with it. Here are some tips that completely eliminate some of the problems with this type of setup:

Tip 1: Once you place your spawn in the container close the side holes with tape and allow CO2 expulsion with foil over the top You can also cover with foil and allow the CO2 expulsion to occur at the substrate level, but only one avenue of expulsion can be allowed or fresh air exchange begins to take place.

Tip 2: Once you have the spawn cased, avoid opening the container for any reason. This is one of the main reasons contaminates enter the tub is from excessive opening. If you are using a single tub you'll use the opening in the top to see the progress from the outside, and the sides/top for the double tub.

Tip 3: Complete the harvest very shortly after the veils break and always clean the room with some Lysol spray prior to opening the container, especially the air. The less the container is open the better.

Tip 4: Have everything you need at your fingertips during the harvest. Don't wait until you have picked all of your mushrooms to get the casing mix from downstairs or worse yet make some. If you need a container to carry the fresh mushrooms, have it with you. Assessing the needs of the harvest before completing the harvest will ensure a speedy recovery for the next flush and less of a chance for contaminates to enter.

Well that's about all I can think right now. I know I'm not the only guy out there doing this. Does anyone else doing these teks have an opinion?

Nice work by the way Gatorade, I just think we're changing the composition of this tek by putting tubs inside of tubs. I could be wrong though.


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OfflineWojo
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Registered: 04/02/05
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EDIT [Re: Zenith]
    #4278875 - 06/10/05 07:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Just a thought. Since the diffusion of a gas can be roughly expressed through the equation "1/Sqr root(molar mass of gas)", wouldnt it be evident that more molecules of O2 would be escaping from the tub than molecules of Co2(because CO2 is a heavier gas, its RMS speed is not as fast as O2, which means it has less of a chance of hitting the opening in the container and escaping). Over time this could lead to a buildup of Co2, but i doubt it would be noticable. Has anyone tried a squirrel cage fan that blows through a polyfill filter? Maybe for 5 minutes an hour to completely exchange the air in the tub?


Edited by Wojo (06/10/05 08:04 AM)


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OfflineWronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Wojo]
    #4278890 - 06/10/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No, a fan would blowing directly at the container would create a condition that will dry out the substrate or casing layer depending on what stage you are at. The purpose of the Single/Double tub teks are to provide growing conditions that require minimal intervention.

The only time a fan should be introduced is when the room it's in only has stagnant air. Even then the fan should provide better air circulation as a general rule, not push air though the container.

This tek does not require anything other than time once you have completed your initial spawn. Besides casing and harvest, you never open the tub. The application of the Single/Double Tub tek provides perfect growing conditions for the mushrooms. Start messing with that and you completely change the application.

Any input is certainly appreciated, but the tek is pretty easy to use.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 1,131
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Gatorade]
    #4279232 - 06/10/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Am I wrong or will he have to make his casing layer exactly level with the top of the inner trays? If not, it seems to me that the CO2 would build up in each individual tray a lot before it would start to overflow down into the tub and out of the holes in the side. Hence the reason the normal set up, the co2 at the casing layer goes straight out of the holes in the side of the tub.

Or maybe not....


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Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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OfflineGatorade
A-With-A-Teeth-A

Registered: 05/17/05
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Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: VirgilKane]
    #4279674 - 06/10/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yes I am aware of that... my dishpan tubs will be the exact same height as the casing layer. It will be 4 inch's of substrate (H/poo spawned with BRF cakes) and 3/4 inch casing (Peat moss/Vermiculite). Thanks for pointing that out.

To clarify WoJo's concern, as you noted C02 is heavier, making it fall to the bottom. That is why they're 2 sets of holes, a ring around the top, and a ring around the bottom. The bottom one is were the built up C02 drains from, and the top is were fresh air is drawn in from.

I always love your posts Augustin, yea I don't know why I wrote "one hole," I think I meant "a hole" just in reference to how the CO2 escapes. Believe me I have studied your setup with wide eyes.
So you say the black bag is too prevent condensation and not just prevent light in? I suppose it couldn't hurt to throw a bag into my pans just to be safe.

Also I had another question for you kind sir. You say its not just a fruiting chamber but an all around growing bin. My plan was to spawn the brf cakes to poo in my incubator (84 degrees) then take out after fully colonizing, then place my casing on and pop back in the incubator until I see first signs of growth poking through, then I was going to place that casing in the single tub. You suggesting once I crumble up the cakes and mix with the poo I can put in the double tub? What about keeping it warm, or does it do that on its own?

Last quick question... what about aborts? If you can't open the tub how can you pick the aborts before they die and rot?

Love all you guys... I'm gonna keep you all posted.


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OfflineWronguy
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Gatorade]
    #4280366 - 06/10/05 04:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Good to see you experimenting there Gatorade. As far as your questions are concerned, I'll try and answer them with as little ambiguity as possible.

The trash bags prevent the condensation from ending up on the substrate and roll down the side instead. The bag also makes for easy cleanup and temporary removal of the substrate. If the substrate has aborts or mushrooms growing on the sides, you simply use the trash bag to carefully pull the entire substrate out of the container.

When you pull the substrate out of the container, lay it on a flat surface in a semi-sterile room and it will layout just like it was in the container. The trash bag will automatically fall down flat and expose the sides of the substrate for harvesting. Pretty easy if you ask me.

Your last question was in relation to the incubation of the spawn. The spawn does require incubation, but not by artificially raising the temps. After you have mixed your spawn in the tub, preferably with a trash bag on the bottom, cover with foil or even the container's original lid and place in a dark room for 4-5 days. Closets work great for the incubation period, as they typically have higher temps than rooms with ventilation and darkness is achieved by simply closing the door.

Remember to only provide one avenue for the CO2 expulsion or you'll start promoting fresh air exchange.

I hope I answered all of your questions. If not, please ask.


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OfflineWronguy
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Wronguy]
    #4280418 - 06/10/05 04:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Oh I forgot. The trash bags also keep light out of the sides and help avoid side pinning issues. Just remember that the bags have to be double layered. A single layer will not keep enough light out. So a new unopened bag would suffice.


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OfflineGatorade
A-With-A-Teeth-A

Registered: 05/17/05
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Wronguy]
    #4280523 - 06/10/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Gotcha thanks for the help.

So once I mix the substrate, place in the single tub and allow for it to colonize. Then open it up after a few days and lay the casing on top, mist and close the lid until harvest. Almost too simple.

You say one avenue for co2 expulsion, this is achieved by just having the bottom holes open and sealing the top ones I assume.

Now I know this is a hard estimate to make, but considering i have 2 12x12 dishpans that are 4" deep in h/poo. What do you think the dried weight will be from the first harvest? Assuming that all goes to plan.


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OfflineWronguy
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Gatorade]
    #4280660 - 06/10/05 06:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You are correct in sealing the top holes during the spawn run. You also want to re-incubate once you have cased, then induce pinning after the mycelium has started taking over the casing layer. You will not patch. The incubation is all that is needed, typically 3-5 days after casing.

Based on your substrate depth and container sizes, I will take an educated guess and say you will yield between 7-9 ounces on the first flush. Obviously that's just a guess, but I'll bet I'm pretty close.


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OfflineArcanePerception
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Wronguy]
    #4281369 - 06/10/05 10:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Augustine7 What size tub do you use(in quarts, gallons, or liters) and about how many pounds of hydrated hpoo do you use to fill it? I am knocking up some jars of wbs this weekend for my second crack at hpoo and thinking of dumping my bubbler set up fruiting chamber for a single tub run just "set it and forget it" sounds so much easier


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Oh, welcome to this world of fools
Of pink champagne and swimming pools


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InvisibleThumpaCap
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: ArcanePerception]
    #4281500 - 06/10/05 10:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

yea i like the single tub with trays inside too... i think the perfect size would be the containers that walmart sells 5lbs of ground meat in.... BUT... i was also thinking... would the standing water at the bottom of the tub become contaminated like when having cakes inside a tub( it gets sour if it sits too long).... or do the polly filled holes provide enough evaporation for that not to be a concern??... maybe a drain hole would work but its not easy draining a tub like that...also......
would it be a good idea to rig up a cool mist like you would when using a martha stewart??.... or would that cause too much humidity??
.... maybe using a tub with trays inside, a cool mist, polly filled holes near bottom.... and a drain hole to let out excess water.... how would that work out/???... only prob i see is the water that drips from the cool mist hose but if you have an elbow on it turned upwards that would prevent any water droplets.... would this work??.... or would it suffice to forget the cool mist all together and go with a good initial spraying of the inside of the tubs.... actually my main concern is the standing water inside the tub and what to do about it... or .... maybe use an aquarium pump with an airstone inside a tall glass would help with humidity and air exchange..
-i have been trying to figure out the perfect tub setup for a while.... i would like to see if this would work....
-a large tub(solid color) with trays inside
-computer fans mounted on it at each end for air exchange(would this be necessary???:???)
-a coolmist with 2 hoses coming in at each end(filter on air intake of cool mist)
- a drain hose for excess water (with a fuel type filter on the end so bugs won't enter)
-a flourescent on top (top cutout with plexiglass inserted)
-timers on everything.... fans on about 1 hr everyday, cool mist running 30 minits on 30 off, lights on 12hrs a day

-------would this be overkill????
maybe i'm just thinking too much....

i would have prob already made one but i'm stumped on how to set up the computer fans where they would blow through a filter into the tub. (duct tape a bunch of register filters on it??)..... oh yea.. and wiring the fans(prob would need a power supply)

-but i think that could make an automated growing climate... you could prob even mount some misting nozzles in the lid too so you can just come around whenever needed and pump up your sprayer and push a button and mist.... I WILL NOW STOP CAUSE THIS IS GETTING TOO DAM LONG


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:bongload: Look into my heyes !! :bongload:


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OfflineArcanePerception
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: ThumpaCap]
    #4281628 - 06/10/05 11:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I just finished an hpoo grow with a fruiting chamber as follows: a 1.5" layer of perlite at the bottom to soak up excess water and humidify 2 foil trays on top of the perlite an air pump in a sealed tupperware with a tyvex filter on both sides running into a cup in the fruiting chamber for filtered fresh air and more humidity 2 holes stuffed with pollyfill just above the perlite layer in the fruiting chamber for c02 expellsion and a small flashlight wrapped in ducted tape to waterproof pointed up a a foil lined lid for light. This worked pretty well but alot of space was wasted in the grow chamber had to open it twice a day to turn off the flash light had to keep filling the cup with water+h202 solution making lots of chances for contaims to get into the casing in fact I did get a little trich(a green mold) during the 3rd flush this time I want to go with the single tub method results sound like they are as good as any method and all the extras just me more things to break down or let contaims in


--------------------
Oh, welcome to this world of fools
Of pink champagne and swimming pools


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OfflineSammy
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: ArcanePerception]
    #4281968 - 06/11/05 12:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)



It works  :grin:



Use Horse Doo.  I haven't tried the worm castings as used in Eatualive's TEK but I've read a few posts praising H - doo over it.  Good lawk.  It's AWESOME.  I think out of the first flush I got about 3 1/2 oz dry, looks like more for the second.


sam


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I believe in the Golden Rule ? The Man with the Gold . . . Rules.
- Mr. T


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OfflineGatorade
A-With-A-Teeth-A

Registered: 05/17/05
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Re: Hey Single/Double Tub guys out there... [Re: Sammy]
    #4283485 - 06/11/05 03:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Wow Sammy, yea that looks pretty much exactly what I was gonna make.

How big are those containers and how was the yeild on those babies. I'm interested in seeing any difference between this method and the standard single tub.


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